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Gene said:
Quote WJ…………the LORD said as you quoted.” BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME” If you understood that the word GOD means (POWERS) from the word Elohim. A uniplural word. You would realize That what He was saying was that there were (NO) POWERS Before HIM and there will BE NONE After HIM either , NOW with that understanding we can see that (ALL) POWER drives it source form that (ONE) POWER WE call GOD. The LORD GOD , gives those POWERS to HIS creation at different Levels some have more and some less (BUT) they (ALL) still derive there source from that ONE POWER. SO in order to separate GOD the FATHER from the Rest, Jesus said (FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD or POWER same thing. NOTICE the WORD (TRUE) why because He is the source of it (ALL). EVERYTHING DERIVES it's POWER from that ONE SOURCE> and that includes JESUS ALSO. JUST ONE GOD (POWER) working IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. THE LORD IS THE SOURCE OF ALL POWER IN EARTH AND HEAVEN. NO OTHER SOURCE IS THERE BUT HIM ALONE. IMO gene
goo goo ga ga
thinker
Gene said:
Quote WJ…….According to Jeff Benner, a Hebrew Scholar the word GOD was view by the ancient Hebrews as a uni-Plural word meaning POWERS. It's originally pictorial symbol, was the head of an OX with a STAFF, the Ox symbol was the prime symbol for Power, and the Staff was what they leaned on for support. This was to them the symbol of the GOD of ISREAL. He was the POWER they LEANED on or TRUSTED IN. And if you takes this and apply it to Scriptures you can easily see how it fits. GOD the FATHER is the true POWER we and Jesus Lean or trust IN. Now if you apply this with the understanding that (ALL) POWERS came into existence by the ONE true POWER and was given from HIM to HIS CREATION, everything falls into place. WE are God's as Well as Jesus, but there is still (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD were we derived our POWERS. When scripture speaks of false God's it is referencing Objects of Worship other than the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, not the fact that men are Gods and Sons of GOD, but putting something in HIS EXCLUSIVE PLACE IN OUR LIVES> WJ in John 1:1……> it could be read in the beginning was the word (expressed intelligence) and the word (expressed intelligence) was GOD (POWERS) and WAS POWERS. This is what created everything in existence in the beginning and distribute different POWERS to His creation. IT was the ONE ONLY (TRUE) GOD (POWER) as Jesus SAID. more goo goo ga ga
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 30 2009,15:08) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2009,07:39) T8…quote
Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree.Now look what God gave Christ.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”So if men and angels can be referred to as theos/elohim without being God, then ask yourself why you say that Jesus is God when you know full well that Jesus has been made lord and christ and therefore the ultimate ruler.
This same Jesus said the following and who are we to disagree with the one called truth?
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Saying that Jesus is part of a Trinity God because the word theos may have been used in reference to him is to be biased, when we know that theos is used in an affirmative way for others who are not the Most High God.
Context is important. e.g., Most High God, or God of gods, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, one God the Father, etc, shows us that the Father is the one true God and other uses are either beings under the authority of God or false gods.
It is kind of the same with the Devil. We know there is a Devil who is Satan. But there are devils, which are those who have his nature or character, but who are not the Devil himself.
We also see the same thing with Man. There was one son of Man (Adam) and his offspring are called man which is the same word “adam”. So there was one Adam and those who partake in his nature are adam.
If people could understand that this is quite normal in scripture, then perhaps they might stop forcing their own understanding and culture onto scripture and in doing so they might draw better and truer conclusions.
T8………good post i see it that way to.gene
t8,
Having Gene in your corner must be quite reassuring.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,06:04) Hi TT,
Why are you arguing with Gene? Most of his ideas are of gnosticism but so is trinity.
Nick,
You clearly are not informed. Gnosticism is the ememy of Trinitarians. Gnosticism and Arianism are a perfect marriage.
thinkerQuote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:22) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,04:28) Thinker, I need to make a very important correction. The Greek in Col. 2:9 reads “Theotetos” (Godhead) not “theotokos” (God-bearer or Mother of God or the one who gave birth to God).
Carry on.
An even bigger correction should be pointed out.God doesn't have a mother.
God is the Father of all and has no source.
That is why he is called the Father.The notion of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.
Jesus is God. And He has a mother.Jesus created His mother.
Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer. Jesus was God in her womb. God was born.
Great is the mystery of Godliness. God was manifested in the flesh.
The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15. And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.
Go ahead. You go back to unholy tradition to back up what you believe. (Babylon) I'll stick with holy tradition.
Hi CA:Did you receive this knowledge through oral tradition?
This is true because the Pope said that it is.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,06:16) Hi CA,
So the mother of God preexisted God?
IF you had taken time to know and understand my position you wouldn't have to ask such silly questions. But I'll oblige with with the short and ever so obvious:NO
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 02 2009,11:11) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:22) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,04:28) Thinker, I need to make a very important correction. The Greek in Col. 2:9 reads “Theotetos” (Godhead) not “theotokos” (God-bearer or Mother of God or the one who gave birth to God).
Carry on.
An even bigger correction should be pointed out.God doesn't have a mother.
God is the Father of all and has no source.
That is why he is called the Father.The notion of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.
Jesus is God. And He has a mother.Jesus created His mother.
Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer. Jesus was God in her womb. God was born.
Great is the mystery of Godliness. God was manifested in the flesh.
The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15. And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.
Go ahead. You go back to unholy tradition to back up what you believe. (Babylon) I'll stick with holy tradition.
Hi CA:Did you receive this knowledge through oral tradition?
This is true because the Pope said that it is.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Holy Written and Oral Tradition.Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 01 2009,17:28) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:22) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,04:28) Thinker, I need to make a very important correction. The Greek in Col. 2:9 reads “Theotetos” (Godhead) not “theotokos” (God-bearer or Mother of God or the one who gave birth to God).
Carry on.
An even bigger correction should be pointed out.God doesn't have a mother.
God is the Father of all and has no source.
That is why he is called the Father.The notion of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.
Jesus is God. And He has a mother.Jesus created His mother.
Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer. Jesus was God in her womb. God was born.
Great is the mystery of Godliness. God was manifested in the flesh.
The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15. And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.
Go ahead. You go back to unholy tradition to back up what you believe. (Babylon) I'll stick with holy tradition.
CA,What happend to reason and logic?
What you are proposing is against both, imo.
Love,
Mandy
I don't get you there. What I wrote was perfectly reasonable and logical. Want to try and ask me something like, “When you say X, do you mean A or B”? Seek to understand what I say. Don't assume you already know. What about what I have written is illogical? You lost me. I knew this would send everyone into a fury. But I did it for a reason….to provoke thought and discussion. Here are my statements enumerated for you to question me about:1. Jesus is God.
2. And He has a mother.
3. Jesus created His mother.
4. Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer.
5. Jesus was God in her womb.
6. God was born.
7. Great is the mystery of Godliness.
8. God was manifested in the flesh.
9. The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15.
10. And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 02 2009,11:15) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 02 2009,11:11) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:22) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,04:28) Thinker, I need to make a very important correction. The Greek in Col. 2:9 reads “Theotetos” (Godhead) not “theotokos” (God-bearer or Mother of God or the one who gave birth to God).
Carry on.
An even bigger correction should be pointed out.God doesn't have a mother.
God is the Father of all and has no source.
That is why he is called the Father.The notion of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.
Jesus is God. And He has a mother.Jesus created His mother.
Mary is the theotokos/God-bearer. Jesus was God in her womb. God was born.
Great is the mystery of Godliness. God was manifested in the flesh.
The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15. And I could argue that it goes even farther back than that since this was God's plan before the foundation of the world.
Go ahead. You go back to unholy tradition to back up what you believe. (Babylon) I'll stick with holy tradition.
Hi CA:Did you receive this knowledge through oral tradition?
This is true because the Pope said that it is.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Holy Written and Oral Tradition.
Hi CA:Quote Pro 30:5 ¶ Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.This is what God revealed to the church relative to Jesus:
Quote Mat 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.You quote the following scripture:
Quote 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. These verses of scripture are speaking of the mystery of godliness and they are speaking of Jesus who is the Son of God and not God. God does not have to be justified in the Spirit.
This is the way the NLT paraphrases these scriptures:
Quote 1Ti 3:16 Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ [fn] appeared in the flesh and was shown to be righteous by the Spirit. [fn] He was seen by angels and was announced to the nations. He was believed on in the world and was taken up into heaven. [fn] And they add the following footnote:
Quote 3:16) Greek Who; some manuscripts read God Also,
Quote 2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.Quote Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.Quote Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote These verses of scripture are speaking of the mystery of godliness and they are speaking of Jesus who is the Son of God and not God. Marty,
By your logic we must conclude that verses which state that Jesus was the Son of Man must mean that He was not Man.
thinker
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40) The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15
The concept of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 02 2009,11:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,06:16) Hi CA,
So the mother of God preexisted God?
IF you had taken time to know and understand my position you wouldn't have to ask such silly questions. But I'll oblige with with the short and ever so obvious:NO
CA, it is obvious that Mary is the mother of Jesus humanity.It is of the anti-christ spirit to deny that Jesus came in the flesh.
Making Mary out to be the Mother of God is not only really silly, but quite offensive.
God is the source of all and the Most High.
There is no mother/source/father for God. There is no cause for God. There is no higher than the Most High.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,13:37) Marty said: Quote These verses of scripture are speaking of the mystery of godliness and they are speaking of Jesus who is the Son of God and not God. Marty,
By your logic we must conclude that verses which state that Jesus was the Son of Man must mean that He was not Man.thinker
Hi thethinker:No, I don't see how what I have said about 1 Ti 3:15 has anything to do with the scriptures that Jesus is the son of Man.
He is the Son of God and the son of man. He is not just any man, but nevertheless, he is a man, and as a man, he was justified in the Spirit having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.
If I have said something that is not the truth, show me by the scriptures that what I have said is not true so that I can be corrected.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,13:37) Marty said: Quote These verses of scripture are speaking of the mystery of godliness and they are speaking of Jesus who is the Son of God and not God. Marty,
By your logic we must conclude that verses which state that Jesus was the Son of Man must mean that He was not Man.thinker
But for him, logic has nothing to do with it. Whatever he feels or thinks he hears is true whether it is compatible with reason or not…at least this is what I gather.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 02 2009,14:28) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,16:40) The concept of a mother of God goes back to Genesis 3:15
The concept of a mother of God goes back to Babylon.
Let's agree to disagree.You think that the devil is the “original” party here.
I think God is the “original” party and the devil is a sorry excuse for a copycat.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 02 2009,14:44) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 02 2009,11:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,06:16) Hi CA,
So the mother of God preexisted God?
IF you had taken time to know and understand my position you wouldn't have to ask such silly questions. But I'll oblige with with the short and ever so obvious:NO
CA, it is obvious that Mary is the mother of Jesus humanity.
A person does not give birth to a nature only, but a whole person. You cannot separate Jesus' humanity from His divinity like the gnostics and later the Arians. This is what we were fighting all of those years ago in the first centuries of the Church. Theotokos (God-bearer) was a statement primarily about the divinity of Christ and secondarily about Mary. Nestorius was accused of wanting to make the distinction you are claiming here. But the two natures of Christ (human and divine) are perfectly united in one Person. Jesus is fully man and fully God. You cannot separate the two in Him.Quote It is of the anti-christ spirit to deny that Jesus came in the flesh. So stop entertaining the spirit of antichrist and confess that God came in the flesh.
Quote Making Mary out to be the Mother of God is not only really silly, but quite offensive. I'm happy to stand without wavering. I'm not going to budge on this. Jesus was God in Mary's womb. She gave birth to God, the One who created her. The very person through whom she herself was created.
Quote God is the source of all and the Most High. There is no mother/source/father for God. There is no cause for God. There is no higher than the Most High.
Theotokos is NOT a statement of the origination or existence of God. It is a statement about the incarnation.
If the Protestant gospel started at the incarnation, they would have an easier time understanding the significance and integral part played by Mary.
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