JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,11:39)

CA, I was not aware that the Catholics were such excellent trinitarian apologists. I am happy to learn that such good apologists are out there. thinker

Thinker,

They defined the doctrine, so it should be a given that they are best at defending it. It is their foundation and without their foundation, they say that you are not saved.

Believe it or not, if you hold this doctrine, you are a catholic, albeit perhaps a rebellious one if you do not fellowship at that denomination.

The Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man………….

[Proclaimer]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30)

CA, I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine. thinker

John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

Was Jesus saying that Judas was:

1) The Devil/Satan
2) A devil/demon
3) Like a devil

He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3).

There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”.

This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,14:26)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30) CA, I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine. thinker John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” Was Jesus saying that Judas was: 1) The Devil/Satan 2) A devil/demon 3) Like a devil He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3). There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”. This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.

Here you are 2,000 years after the fact. Koine Greek is not your native tongue. Yet you presume to be an authority on it's tenses and meanings. Yet you not only reject the apostles of the first century. You have the gall to reject the fathers of the church who also spoke this language. I don't understand how anyone could be so sure of themselves when so much is at stake.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,14:19)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,11:39) CA, I was not aware that the Catholics were such excellent trinitarian apologists. I am happy to learn that such good apologists are out there. thinker Thinker, They defined the doctrine, so it should be a given that they are best at defending it. It is their foundation and without their foundation, they say that you are not saved. Believe it or not, if you hold this doctrine, you are a catholic, albeit perhaps a rebellious one if you do not fellowship at that denomination. The Athanasian Creed Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man………….

You would do well to keep in mind that the Catholic/Universal faith was the only Christian faith there was. Thus the title “universal.”

I find it fascinating that you see how much is at stake and you so cooly sluff off the constant teaching of the Church of Jesus Christ in all places and in all times.

I think I need a minute….

[Proclaimer]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,20:00)

You would do well to keep in mind that the Catholic/Universal faith was the only Christian faith there was.  Thus the title “universal.”

The universal/catholic church and the Roman Universal/Catholic church are not the same thing.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,19:58)

Here you are 2,000 years after the fact.  Koine Greek is not your native tongue.  Yet you presume to be an authority on it's tenses and meanings.  Yet you not only reject the apostles of the first century.  You have the gall to reject the fathers of the church who also spoke this language.  I don't understand how anyone could be so sure of themselves when so much is at stake.

It is not your native tongue either. Regardless, we still have the ability to look at the construction of a verse that is easily understood and compare it to similarly constructed verses that are debatable. Scripture is a good judge of scripture. I would rather compare scripture with scripture, than scripture with a man made creed.

Also what fathers are you talking about?

Tatian
And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father .

Athenagoras
, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father,

Theophilus of Antioch
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things.

Irenaeus
Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, “There is One God, the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in all.

These [Apostles] have all declared to us that there is One God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets and one Christ the Son of God.

'Wherefore I do also call upon You, LORD God of Abraham, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob and Israel [YAHWEH], who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Clement of Alexandria
The Son is the power of God, as being the Father's most ancient Word before the making of all things.

He is the true only-begotten, the express image of the glory of the Universal King and Almighty Father…. [the only-begotten] the Second Cause.

Origen
Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that God on the one hand is autotheos (God of Himself); and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know You the only true God; “but that all beyond the autotheos (God) is made theos by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply “the” theos but rather theos. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos (gods) beside Him,

It was by the offices of the first-born that they became (gods), for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made theos gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is ho theos (“the god”), and those who are formed after Him are (gods), images, as it were, of Him the prototype

I am not saying that I agree with everything they said, but they definately had some interesting things to say regarding God and the son that certainly contradict the Trinity doctrine that came after them.

And this is what Jesus of Nazareth had to say:
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Paul said this:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

The Trinity contradicts all of the above.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,22:43)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,20:00) You would do well to keep in mind that the Catholic/Universal faith was the only Christian faith there was.  Thus the title “universal.”   The universal/catholic church and the Roman Universal/Catholic church are not the same thing.

Roman Catholic Church is NOT a canonical title. It is and has always been the Catholic Church. I'm sorry that your little unicorn fairy dust websites didn't inform you of that.

The MAIN issue that you cannot refute is that there is and has been only ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

You can't refute that.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,23:09)

Quote

It is not your native tongue either.

Right. So I take the counsel of the apostles, fathers, doctors, etc. You take YOURSELF.

Quote

Regardless, we still have the ability to look at the construction of a verse that is easily understood and compare it to similarly constructed verses that are debatable.

This is a statement leaning exclusively upon the subjective: “verses that are debatable”. So you have a selected group of verses that YOU think ARE and ARE NOT debatable. Nice try.

Quote

Scripture is a good judge of scripture. I would rather compare scripture with scripture, than scripture with a man made creed.

Scripture is a printed page. It doesn't “judge” anything. It must be interpreted. You are imposing YOUR interpretations upon Scripture and elevating them (you interpretations) to the same level of Scripture.

But I will grant that good hermeneutics demands that we take into account the whole of Scripture. But when we do so, we must submit in our weakness to the judgment of the apostolic Church. We as individuals are too prone to err. You are class A proof of that.

Quote

'Wherefore I do also call upon You, LORD God of Abraham, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob and Israel [YAHWEH], who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

When you quote non-Hebrew languages like this your credibility factor goes way down.

Anyhow, these passages do not deny the Trinity. You just refuse to understand it.

Also, since I don't trust you. I would need to go and check to make sure you are using historically authentic sources. Sorry. No time now.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:26)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30) CA, I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine. thinker John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” Was Jesus saying that Judas was: 1) The Devil/Satan 2) A devil/demon 3) Like a devil He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3). There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”. This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.

t8

Your argument is a straw!

How about the many times that the Word God is used in referring to the Father without the definite article?

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,08:48)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:26) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30) CA, I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine. thinker John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” Was Jesus saying that Judas was: 1) The Devil/Satan 2) A devil/demon 3) Like a devil He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3). There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”. This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you. t8 Your argument is a straw! How about the many times that the Word God is used in referring to the Father without the definite article? WJ

An example of the absence of the definite article is in John 1:6 which says this, “There was a man who was sent from God whose name was John.” No definite article is present. So according to Arian Greek we may read it thus, “There was a man who was sent from a god whose name was John.”

Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,

“And what God was the Word was.”

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,19:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,08:48) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:26) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30) CA, I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine. thinker John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” Was Jesus saying that Judas was: 1) The Devil/Satan 2) A devil/demon 3) Like a devil He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3). There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”. This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you. t8 Your argument is a straw! How about the many times that the Word God is used in referring to the Father without the definite article? WJ An example of the absence of the definite article is in John 1:6 which says this, “There was a man who was sent from God whose name was John.” No definite article is present. So according to Arian Greek we may read it thus, “There was a man who was sent from a god whose name was John.” Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all, “And what God was the Word was.” thinker

Hi Jack

True!

WJ

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,11:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,08:48) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:26) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30) CA, I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine. thinker John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” Was Jesus saying that Judas was: 1) The Devil/Satan 2) A devil/demon 3) Like a devil He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3). There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”. This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you. t8 Your argument is a straw! How about the many times that the Word God is used in referring to the Father without the definite article? WJ An example of the absence of the definite article is in John 1:6 which says this, “There was a man who was sent from God whose name was John.” No definite article is present. So according to Arian Greek we may read it thus, “There was a man who was sent from a god whose name was John.” Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all, “And what God was the Word was.” thinker

I wonder if t8 has read that appendix from the EOB? I wish there was a good way to paste it in here. I'm not so good with preserving the charts and such from that pdf.

[georg]

thinker, W.J. and you Catholic! How wrong can you get. Nowhere in the Bible can you find the trinity. John 1:1 the word God is a title, like all Family names are. if you read in
Ephesians 4:6 it says this
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through us all, and in us all.”
thinker God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, so don't come me with that was before Jesus went to Heaven.
By Jesus own words He said this,
John 14: 28 for my Father is greater then I.
Deut. 4:35 ” Unto thee it was shewed that thou mightest know, that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.
Deut. 6:4 ” Hear O Israel; The LORD our God is one LORD.”

1 Corinth. 8:4 ” And that there is none other God but one.”
The first Christians did not believe in the trinity.

Many died by the hands of the Romans, and after almost three century of brutal and blody percecution, it was the Roman emperor Constantine that issued an edit, granting all Christians full freedom to practice their religion. It wa A.D. 313
However in 321 Constantine issued an edit forbidding work on Sundays. Not only that all Holy Days became all Holidays like Christmas and Easter etc. All were Pagan and still are.
In 324 Constantine established Christianity as the offical religion of His empire.
It will become known as the Roman Universal Church.
Since the Bible was published many who owned one, were tortured and killed by the Catholic Church. Since we are from Germany many Churches still had the effidence in the Basement of the Churches. Only Priests were aloud to have a Bible.
I know our Catholic does not want to believe so, He must be very young, not like my husband and I (71and 72)
1 Thess. 5:21 ” Prove all things.” Can you prove the trinity?
Peace and Love Irene

[KangarooJack]

Irene said:

Quote

thinker God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, so don't come me with that was before Jesus went to Heaven. By Jesus own words He said this, John 14: 28 for my Father is greater then I.

When the Bible says that God cannot change it is referring to His PROMISES. It means that His word cannot fail. Jesus Christ has been exalted to God's right hand. Your denial of this means that you are lost and dead in your trespasses and sins. Jesus said the Father was greater than Him. But after He was exalted the Father called Him “God.”

Why is it that you don't believe the Father? If He is your God as you claim then why do you call Him a liar? When Jesus says something about the Father you believe it. But when the Father Himself says that Jesus is God you don't believe it.

You quote the apostles who said that the Father is God. They also said that Jesus is God. Stop picking and choosing the scriptures you will believe. You make yourself your own God when you do this.

REPENT!

thinker

[georg]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 20 2009,22:06)

Irene said: Quote thinker God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, so don't come me with that was before Jesus went to Heaven. By Jesus own words He said this, John 14: 28 for my Father is greater then I. When the Bible says that God cannot change it is referring to His PROMISES. It means that His word cannot fail. Jesus Christ has been exalted to God's right hand. Your denial of this means that you are lost and dead in your trespasses and sins. Jesus said the Father was greater than Him. But after He was exalted the Father called Him “God.” So what you are saying since Jesus sits on the throne with the Father, He is equal with the Father Why is it that you don't believe the Father? If He is your God as you claim then why do you call Him a liar? When Jesus says something about the Father you believe it. But when the Father Himself says that Jesus is God you don't believe it. You quote the apostles who said that the Father is God. They also said that Jesus is God. Stop picking and choosing the scriptures you will believe. You make yourself your own God when you do this. REPENT! thinker

thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me.   Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father.  I never said that John 1:1 is wrong.  I did say, that God is A TITLE.  And I will never, never say what you are implying.  Shame on you……Even Hebrew 1:8 God the Father calls Jesus God.   But that does not mean that they are a trinity.,….
That would be denying all Scriptures that I gave in my last post. Also the Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit, and not a Person.  If that would be the case then He would be the Father of Jesus.  And we know, that is not so.

Math. 15:9 ” But in  vain do they worship Me, teaching the doctrine the commandment of men.”
You go right on believing men, I will only believe God's Word the Bible.
Also interpeting what the Bible says that God the Father is the same today and yesterday and tomorrow, again you are interpeting Scripture.  God's Word cannot fail…HMMM.Again Shame on you don't believe that if you believe in the trinity.  It is a manmade doctrine and not from God.
How can the one that is being exalted ever be equal to the one who exalted Him?
Now one more thing, and I am saying this because Guests come on here and read this. I will not further engage in a debate with you, you are so set in your way, that you cannot understand and learn what is right.
Goodbye
Irene

[georg]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 19 2009,07:36)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,22:43) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,20:00) You would do well to keep in mind that the Catholic/Universal faith was the only Christian faith there was.  Thus the title “universal.”   The universal/catholic church and the Roman Universal/Catholic church are not the same thing. Roman Catholic Church is NOT a canonical title.  It is and has always been the Catholic Church.  I'm sorry that your little unicorn fairy dust websites didn't inform you of that. The MAIN issue that you cannot refute is that there is and has been only ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. You can't refute that.

And who wants to belong to such Church, that believes in a manmade doctrine. I don't and knowing t8 neither does He.
Math. 15:9 ” But in vain do they do worship Me, teaching the doctrine the commandments of men.” That is what it is.
If you know Ancient History you would know what happened then. He even changed the Calender, we go by today. All of God's Holy Days became Holidays. You can find God's Holy Days in Lev. 23 One more thing Holy Catholic Church. It was called the Roman Universal Church. Who ever changed it into the Holy Church will one day be sorry that He or they did. So sad…..that people like you even still believe in it, after reading Scriptures that deny the trinity doctrine. And nobody is Holy except the Father in Heaven, right now. We are all sinners and if we believe not, the truth is not in us, John tells us. Believing that the Pope is the Holy Father here on earth is an abomination to God. And so is the Mass. Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice and no other is needed. Going to the Priest and asking Him for the forgiveness of our sins, is ridicolous to say the least. No Human being can forgive sins, only our Heavenly Father can do that. And we have a Mediator Jesus Christ to go to the Throne of the Father through Jesus and ask for the forgiveness of our Sins.
Come out of Her my People Rev. tells us. I have, how about you? Or are you so indoctrinated that you can't. I almost think so……
Irene
Irene
[/B]

[KangarooJack]

Irene said:

Quote

thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me.   Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father.

Irene,
You have said over and over again that Christ's name as God is just a “title” inferring that it doesn't mean anything. Barack Obama has the title of President of the United States. Does Obama's title have meaning or not? Well, he sits in the oval office and officiates as the President. This means that he IS the President.

The Father exalted Jesus Christ to the throne and then called Him “GOD.” This means that His title as God has meaning. He officiates as God from the throne. This means that He IS God.

So when you say that the name “God” in reference to Jesus is just a “title” you really deny that He has been exalted. You give mere lip service to His exaltation. At least Bodhitharta is honest. He comes right out and says that the verses where Christ is called God are corrupt. He denies that such statements are in the original scriptures. Though he is wrong at least he is honest enough to come right out and say that parts of the Bible have been tampered with.

But you do a Mexican hat dance and say “Oh, It's just a title.” It was the Father Himself who said that Jesus is God. Yet you deny what the Father said. So how can the Father be your God?

Don't debate me anymore. I don't care! But be assured that I will continue to post against your silly “title” explanation all your other nonsense.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So one is always GOD and another is exalted TO BE GOD?
Two gods?

[georg]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 21 2009,06:09)

Irene said: Quote thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me.   Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father. Irene, You have said over and over again that Christ's name as God is just a “title” inferring that it doesn't mean anything. Barack Obama has the title of President of the United States. Does Obama's title have meaning or not? Well, he sits in the oval office and officiates as the President. This means that he IS the President. The Father exalted Jesus Christ to the throne and then called Him “GOD.” This means that His title as God has meaning. He officiates as God from the throne. This means that He IS God. So when you say that the name “God” in reference to Jesus is just a “title” you really deny that He has been exalted. You give mere lip service to His exaltation. At least Bodhitharta is honest. He comes right out sand says that the verses where Christ is called God are corrupt. He denies that such statements are in the original scriptures. Though he is wrong at least he is honest enough to come right out and say that parts of the Bible have been tampered with. But you do a Mexican hat dance and say “Oh, It's just a title.” It was the Father Himself who said that Jesus is God. Yet you deny what the Father said. So how can the Father be your God? Don't debate me anymore. I don't care! But be assured that I will continue to post against your silly “title” explanation all your other nonsense. thinker

Jumping to any conclusion of what others belief, He then is a liar.  My Father in Heaven is above all, which I quoted often.
Ephesians 4:6  
You to me is a fool, who wants to make others look bad.  And that is a Christian?  Not to me. That verse in Ephesians also proves that there is no ttrinitry.

 

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Are you calling others liars and fools or is just a language issue or misunderstanding?

[Author]

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