JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,02:08)

Hi WJ, They knew Ps 2 and the vision there of Father and Son working as one.

Hi NH

True!

WJ

[gollamudi]

Hi brother WJ,
The Jewish authorities at the time of Jesus misunderstood and alleged that Jesus claimed himself as God and equal to God. Therefore they framed charges against him and crucified him. The same thing happenning now. Many of our Christians are alleging that Jesus is God and equal to God which he never claimed for himself. He always honoured his Father as the one and only God (Jn 17:3). By the way “the son of God” title is not to be taken as God but to be taken as the title given to a human being who is the king of Jews and the Messiah (Ps 2). The title “son of God” to be given to the person who is not God himself. We have to unlearn many things to learn most wonderful revelations of our Bible which I am doing for the past 5 to 6 years. Please remember I was a trinitarian and still attend a trinitarian church but I am knowing God from Jewish monotheism point of view.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So in the millenial time we will see God at work in His Christ ruling here.
But of course your understanding of equality denies trinity.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 16 2009,17:37)

Hi all, God created everything through or in Jesus. What does it mean, does it mean Jesus was the creator? Our N.T uses such words like “through” or “in” Jesus,  we have to understand that God is the sole creator as per Isa 45 & 46. These words like “through” and “in” have to be understood to interpret that Jesus the Messiah was the center point of God's creation. “God created everything through Jesus” means He created it keeping in mind through Jesus God would summit everything. In fact Jesus was said to be crucified before the foundations of the world in the plan of God not literally as per Rev 13:8. God created everything for Jesus His beloved son and kept everything under his feet. If we make Jesus also the creator then we make God of our Bible as Poly. Please understand with Jewish Monotheism point of view not with Pagan polytheism. Peace to all Adam

Gollumandi,
There is not one statement in Scripture that says that God created everything through Jesus. The Scriptures simply declare that all things were created through Him (Jesus). It means that Christ was the direct agent in creation. The Father Himself said so. To the Son He said,

Quote

You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of YOUR hands (Heb. 1:10)

The Father said to the Son, “the heavens are the work of YOUR hands.” If the Father is your God as you claim then you won't contradict Him when He said to the Son, “the heavens are the work of YOUR hands.” Therefore, the God of Isaiah 45-46 is Christ.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Was God talking to Himself?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 16 2009,18:27)

Hi brother WJ, The Jewish authorities at the time of Jesus misunderstood and alleged that Jesus claimed himself as God and equal to God. Therefore they framed charges against him and crucified him. The same thing happenning now. Many of our Christians are alleging that Jesus is God and equal to God which he never claimed for himself. He always honoured his Father as the one and only God (Jn 17:3). By the way “the son of God” title is not to be taken as God but to be taken as the title given to a human being who is the king of Jews and the Messiah (Ps 2). The title “son of God” to be given to the person who is not God himself. We have to unlearn many things to learn most wonderful revelations of our Bible which I am doing for the past 5 to 6 years. Please remember I was a trinitarian and still attend a trinitarian church but I am knowing God from Jewish monotheism point of view. Thanks and peace to you Adam

Gollummandi,
The Jewish authorities did NOT misunderstand Jesus. In Jewish culture the “firstborn” Son was the head of the family EQUALLY with the Father. Jesus knew this. Your statement that the Jews misunderstood Jesus is culturally inaccurate.

You say that He always honored His Father. But you ignore that His Father always honored Him. Why do you select one-sided truth? He said that ALL men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father.

thinker

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Thinker,
Heb 1:10 is the pure interpretation of the Hebrews'(book) writer that God is speaking to Son. The Original Jewish scripture in Ps 102 never says like that. Please read the O.T reference for this parallel it talks about God(Yahweh) who is the sole creator there is no one else besides him.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,19:49)

Hi TT, Was God talking to Himself?

Nick,
Elohim is PLURAL. You know this.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 16 2009,19:57)

Hi brother Thinker, Heb 1:10 is the pure interpretation of the Hebrew(book) writer's interpretation that God is speaking to Son. The Original Jewish scripture in Ps 102 never says like that.

Gollumandi,

Psalm 102 does say that. And the book of Hebrews is also Jewish Scripture. It was written by a Jew who was inspired by God. Therefore, it's truth is infallible. All you need is ears to hear. It says that the Father attributed creation to the Son.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,19:58)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,19:49) Hi TT, Was God talking to Himself? Nick, Elohim is PLURAL. You know this. thinker

Hi TT,
Was God talking to themselves?

[Cato]

Perhaps the plural refers to other gods of a lesser nature?  Elohim are not angels so who are they? We have had discussions on evidence of henotheism in the OT before.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,…”

Ps 82:1  God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the “gods”

Dan 11:36   The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods…

Jud 11:24 Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess

Why in the Ten commandments was it Thou shall have no other gods “before me” rather then there are no other gods, or you shall have no other gods?  Sounds like henotheism to me.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cato @ July 01 2009,10:43)

Perhaps the plural refers to other gods of a lesser nature?  Elohim are not angels so who are they? We have had discussions on evidence of henotheism in the OT before. Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,…” Ps 82:1  God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the “gods” Dan 11:36   The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods… Jud 11:24 Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess Why in the Ten commandments was it Thou shall have no other gods “before me” rather then there are no other gods, or you shall have no other gods?  Sounds like henotheism to me.

Hi Cato

The problem with this is Paul who was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and trained by the best of his day said…

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and “that there is no God but one“. For even if there are “so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” 1 Cor 8:4, 5

Henotheism is not spoken of by a Monotheistic Jew unless it is refering to the “so-called” or “false gods” created by men.

The Father also speaks of these so-called gods when he refers to the wicked kings in Psalms 82 of which he says they will die like men! Jesus speaks of them in John 10 in a derogatory way.

Henotheism would be in vialation of the “Shema”. Yet Paul and other Apostles calls Jesus their “theos” God, and never claims any other being as being such to them.

The Father also ascribes the titile “Theos”, God to Jesus.

All so-called gods are not gods at all, but idols or creations of men.

Blessings WJ

[gollamudi]

Hi brother WJ,
How about the “gods” in Ps 82:6?
Are they also man made gods?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2009,01:38)

Hi brother WJ, How about the “gods” in Ps 82:6? Are they also man made gods?

Hi GM

They are wicked kings and YHWH said they would die like men.

Why is it that you claim Monotheism and yet want to claim that these wicked men are some kind of gods?

You do know what “Henotheism” means dont you?

Do you think YHWH was a Henotheist or a Polytheist?

Because if YHWH is a Henotheist or a Polytheist, then why would he claim we are not to even speak the names of other gods?

And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and “make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth“. Exod 23:13

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2009,01:38)

Hi brother WJ, How about the “gods” in Ps 82:6? Are they also man made gods?

Hi GM

Yes men also can make men into gods.

And the people gave a shout, saying, “It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. Acts 12:22, 23

Notice when Thomas called Jesus his Lord and God, this did not happen to Jesus.

WJ

[gollamudi]

Hi brother WJ,
I appreciate your response to my post. I do know that There is no God but God the Father (1 Cor 8:6). But I was asking you about Jesus being called God by Jews(alleged) or by God himself(as per your post). How about this interpretation of scriptures by Jesus himself in Jn 10:

33″We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

I believe if at all God called Jesus as “God” it should be understood in the light of Jesus' own interpretation of Ps 82:6

Peace and love to you
Adam

[Cindy]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2009,18:18)

Hi brother WJ, I appreciate your response to my post. I do know that There is no God but God the Father (1 Cor 8:6). But I was asking you about Jesus being called God by Jews(alleged) or by God himself(as per your post). How about this interpretation of scriptures by Jesus himself in Jn 10: 33″We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. I believe if at all God called Jesus as “God” it should be understood in the light of Jesus' own interpretation of Ps 82:6 Peace and love to you Adam

Hi Adam! If you read in Hebrew you will see that God calls His Son God.
Hebrew 1:8 But to the Son He said:” You throne O God, is forever and ever.
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
verse 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlesness;
Therefore God, Your God has anointed You with the oil of gladness more then Your companions.”
Just remember God is a tittle and the Father is greater then the Son.
Peace and Love Irene

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 15 2009,23:57)

Hi brother Thinker, Heb 1:10 is the pure interpretation of the Hebrews'(book) writer that God is speaking to Son. The Original Jewish scripture in Ps 102 never says like that. Please read the O.T reference for this parallel it talks about God(Yahweh) who is the sole creator there is no one else besides him.

Gollamudi,

You have obviously not read Colossians chapter 1 where it says in verse 16:

“For by him (Christ) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”

If there is only one creator and the Old Testament says that God created all things, and Colossians says that Jesus created all things, then either we have two creators, the Scriptures lie, or JESUS IS GOD!

Jesus is God. It is that simple.

TC27

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Cato @ July 02 2009,02:43)

Perhaps the plural refers to other gods of a lesser nature?  Elohim are not angels so who are they? We have had discussions on evidence of henotheism in the OT before. Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,…” Ps 82:1  God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the “gods” Dan 11:36   The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods… Jud 11:24 Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess Why in the Ten commandments was it Thou shall have no other gods “before me” rather then there are no other gods, or you shall have no other gods?  Sounds like henotheism to me.

Cato,
Elohim said, “Let US make man in OUR image.” Then it says, “In the image OF GOD He made them.” If Elohim are angels then we have been created in their image too. But the Bible says that we are created in the image of God alone.

thinker

[Cato]

My point was that Elohim are not angels, but equates more closely with gods (note the small g), this supports arguments that the early Hebrews were essentially henotheistic, where God is essentially an OverGod or as mentioned elsewhere God of gods.  So how can you have the title of God of gods if there are no gods.

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