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Quote (thethinker @ June 06 2009,04:20) Quote (Cindy @ June 06 2009,04:02) thinker Oh, no I am not confused about it, but I was surprised, that you believe in it. Have you ever tried to prove it? 2 Thes.22 says we should prove all things. Nowhere in the Bible can you find the trinity written. I can prove that there is no trinity however. Ephesians 4:6 there is one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all. Also I want to say that is not revered to Jesus.
verse 4-5 there is one body and one Spirit, just as we are called;
verse 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,Also Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I. John 14:28
The trinity doctrine is 3in1 and all are equal in power. Not do.Also when you see LORD, that is always the Father, Lord this way it is always Jesus Christ.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
How could you ask me if I have ever tried to prove the trinity doctrine? That is what I have spent most of my tome since january when I joined.The Father was greater than Jesus while He was in the flesh. This is why Jesus told His disciples that He must go away. The Father is not greater than Jesus now because Jesus has been exalted to the Father's right hand. This means that He is EQUAL with the Father now. You can't take things that were true of Him while He was in the flesh and apply them now.
You are correct to say that the Father is in us. But you must remember that it is TRHOUGH JESUS that this is true. Without Jesus the Father is not in us. Anti-trinitarians like to use the “one God and Father” argument all the time. But what about the “one Lord” statement that refers to Jesus? If the “one God” statement means that only the Father is God then the “one Lord” statement means that only Jesus is Lord.
thinker
thinker I see God as a tittle and Jesus just because He is seated at the right hand of God the Father does not make Him equal. He in John 17:5 tells us that He had that glory with the Father before the world was. He never was equal with Him. If He was only below the Father when He was a man, don't you think that He or the Apostles would have told us so? Do you know who first came up with the trinity doctrine? The Apostles did not believe in the trinity, and neither did the first Christians. You can't find the trinity no where in the Bible written. It is so ironic, that the Catholic Monks who put all the Letters together for the Bible, did not mention it.
Peace and Love IreneIrene said:
Quote I see God as a tittle and Jesus just because He is seated at the right hand of God the Father does not make Him equal. Irene,
I don't mean to sound disrespectful towards you because I like you. But it doesn't matter what you or I think about it. What matters is what did the session at the right hand mean in the Jewish culture? Jesus said,Quote ALL authority has been given to me in heaven and in earth This means that Jesus has EQUAL authority with the Father. It's not “ALL authority” if He is not equal with the Father. Nick admits to “functional equality” in reference to Christ's exaltation. He thinks that this diminishes Christ somehow. But it doesn't matter. Even if Christ's equality be “functional” it still means that He call all the shots in heaven and earth and the Father backs Him up.
It's that simple.
People don't want to talk about the Jesus that the Father exalted to His right hand. They would rather talk about the servant Jesus who was at one time under the authority of the Father.
thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus said all authority had been given to him. The one who blesses is yet greater that the one who is blessed[Heb7]
To sit at the right hand of God is not to sit as God but to he His right hand man.thinker Ephesians 1:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as we are called in one hope of your calling.
verse 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
verse 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and in us all.
You are just trying to ignore what these and the fact that Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I.
Yes, all authority has given to Jesus, is King of Kings and Lord of Lord's. That does not make Him equal with the Father.
I like you too, but I do not want to go back, when I have proven to myself that the Father is greater then the Son.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2009,10:01) Hi TT,
I agree with Paul.
Jesus is the son of our God.
But you make God less than God for a time if you hold to trinity folly.
Paul said that Jesus existed in God's form and made Himself nothing becoming obedient unto death. Then God highly exalted Him. You have said that Jesus has a “functional” equality with God. Equality is equality. Thereore, bow your knee.thinker
Quote (Cindy @ June 07 2009,07:33) thinker Ephesians 1:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as we are called in one hope of your calling.
verse 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
verse 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and in us all.
You are just trying to ignore what these and the fact that Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I.
Yes, all authority has given to Jesus, is King of Kings and Lord of Lord's. That does not make Him equal with the Father.
I like you too, but I do not want to go back, when I have proven to myself that the Father is greater then the Son.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,Jesus has been exalted to God's right hand and we are commanded by the Father to bow the knee to Jesus (Philippians 2).
God has installed Jesus as His King over us and we are commanded to acknowledge Him as such. Jesus has ALL authority in heaven and in earth. He is no less than a king in the old testament. The people were bound by law to “kiss” the king which meant that they were to honor him as God's commander and chief,
Quote Them Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on His [Saul's] head, and kissed him and said: “Is it not because the LORD has anointed you commander over His inheritance? (1 Samuel 10:1) Samuel acknowledged that he was required to “kiss” Saul because the Lord had anointed him as king (comander) over His inheritance. So God has anointed Jesus as king over His inheritance in the new testament and has commanded us to kiss Him,
Quote Kiss the Son, lest He be angry with you and you perish in the way You should re-think what you are saying. Thye Son has the authority to destroy you if you don't honor Him. Jesus said,
Quote All judgment has been given to the Son that ALL men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father (John 5) You should not say that you don't owe Jesus your submission because the Father was greater than Him. If the Father was greater than Him then you better do what the Father Himself told you to do. The Father exalted Jesus and said, “Bow the knee to Him.” If you really believe that the Father is greater than Jesus, then don't make yourself greater than the Father by dishonoring His commander and chief.
thinker
HGi TT,
So Jesus is not the God Who installed him as king is he?
He is at the right hand of that great God.
What of your trinity fables?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,09:09) HGi TT,
So Jesus is not the God Who installed him as king is he?
He is at the right hand of that great God.
What of your trinity fables?
Nick,
You missed the point. Why am I not surprised? The Father is greater than all. He has installed Christ as King over us. The Father said, “Bow the knee to My King.” Therefore, if you don't bow the knee you to Jesus you make yourself greater than the Father.Your 9 grandchildren could understand this.
thinker
thinker You making a great mistake by saying that Jesus is equal with the Father, if that is what you are saying. Yes He is King of Kings and Lord of Lord, and yes we will bow our knee to Him, cause that is what you do to a King, our King. That makes Him still not equal with the Father. All power was given to Jesus and He will judge all, but just remember were the power came from.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 09 2009,10:51) thinker You making a great mistake by saying that Jesus is equal with the Father, if that is what you are saying. Yes He is King of Kings and Lord of Lord, and yes we will bow our knee to Him, cause that is what you do to a King, our King. That makes Him still not equal with the Father. All power was given to Jesus and He will judge all, but just remember were the power came from.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
Your statement above is beset with contradictions. You admit that ALL authority has been given to Jesus yet the Father has more authority. If the Father has given Him ALL authority then the Father is no longer greater than Him. In the days of his flesh Jesus was a servant and had to speak the words of His Father. He said that His doctrine was not His own. But now that He is exalted he EQUALLY owns all truth with the Father,Quote I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth…..He will bring glory to me taking of WHAT IS MINE and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father IS MINE. This is why I said that he will take of what IS MINE and make it known to you. (John 16:12-15) This means that you CANNOT invoke the statement inwhich Jesus said “my Father is greater than I” and prove that He is less than the Father NOW. Jesus made that statement BEFORE His exaltation. Jesus EQUALLY possesses ALL His Father's truth now. “ALL that the Father has IS MINE.”
Irene said:
Quote You making a great mistake by saying that Jesus is equal with the Father But Jesus said,
Quote The Father judges no man, but has committed ALL judgment to the Son that ALL men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father If a man who owns a big farm makes his son an EQUAL partner and commits ALL responsibilities to that son, then the laborers had better give that son EQUAL HONOR or they're out of a job. If you don't give the Son the EQUAL honor that the Father requires, then you make yourself greater than the Father and you're in trouble.
thinker
Hi TT,
So when Jesus hands back to the Father the kingdom it will again be seen that God is the head of Christ.
The vine serves the Gardener.
There is no trinityQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,13:26) Hi TT,
So when Jesus hands back to the Father the kingdom it will again be seen that God is the head of Christ.
The vine serves the Gardener.
There is no trinity
And in the meantime you are to do what….? You erroneously think that you can avoid honoring Jesus just because He is supposedly less than the Father. Why would that matter? Jesus said,Quote He who does not honor me does not honor the Father who sent me Don't worry about who Christ's head is. Just concentrate on who is YOUR head. If the owner of the vineyard says to you, “My son is your new boss” and you reply saying, “no because you are his boss” you will be fired.
What good is your anti-trinitarianism Nick if you don't do what the Father told you to do?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,20:18) Hi TT,
The head of man is Christ.
The head of Christ is God.No trinity in those scriptural truths
Nick I have to smile cause that is exactly what I wanted to say!!!!
Great minds think alike!!!!
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,20:18) Hi TT,
The head of man is Christ.
The head of Christ is God.No trinity in those scriptural truths
You said it. The head of man is Christ. Are you starting to catch on Nick?thinker
thinker You should read on, the head of Christ is God. No trinity here or in Ephiasians 4:6, that is what I want to stress.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 10 2009,04:33) thinker You should read on, the head of Christ is God. No trinity here or in Ephiasians 4:6, that is what I want to stress.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,The verse that says that God is the head of Christ is not in Ephesians but in 1 Corinthians 11. In its context it says also that the man is the head of the wife. Nobody takes it to mean that the wife is not equal with her husband. Paul said that the man is nothing without the woman and the woman is nothing without the man. The subordination of the wife to the husband does not infer that she is less than him. The same is true in Christ's relationship to His Father. He is seated at the Father's right hand which implies His equality with the Father. The Father Himself called His Son “God” and King,
Quote Thy throne O God is forever and ever (Heb. 1:8) The Father called the Son “God.”
thinker
Hi TT,
Implications are good enough for you?
We have one God the Father..and one Lord Jesus Christ…if you are one of US?[1Cor8]The Thinker wrote:
Quote The Father called the Son “God.”
The Father called those who received the law “gods”.
Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2009,16:54) The Thinker wrote: Quote The Father called the Son “God.”
The Father called those who received the law “gods”.
Hi Kerwin,
In the context the term “God” in reference to Christ means that His name is “so much better” than the angels and that the angels are commanded to worship Him (vs.4-6). So the word “god” (small g) does not apply in the text. How about you explaining Colossians 1:16,Quote All things were created by Him and FOR Him This is talking about Jesus. It says that all things were created by Him and FOR Him. What do you do with this?
thinker
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