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Kerwin
you say;;Jesus speaks that word because the Spirit dwells in him and God dwells in him through the Spirit that he has given Jesus in fulfillment of prophecy. My interpretation is supports the idea that John is speaking of God giving Jesus the Spirit of God in fulfillment of Isaiah 52:13-15.
so you assume that the spirit can be given,and can also be stuffed in someone?? how is that done?? and what is that spirit ??
this will allow me to understand what you mean,i know it can be given ,so just answer the second part,
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2010,19:23) Irene, Why do you believe Jesus has the title of Word of God and God’s own Spirit does not?
I believe Ed was attempted to show by quoting Scripture that the Sword spoken of in Revelations 19:15 is the Word of God and we are instructed that the prophets of old spoke that same Word as they were carried along by the Spirit of Christ.
Jesus speaks that word because the Spirit dwells in him and God dwells in him through the Spirit that he has given Jesus in fulfillment of prophecy. My interpretation is supports the idea that John is speaking of God giving Jesus the Spirit of God in fulfillment of Isaiah 52:13-15.
I am looking to see though if anyone can provide scriptures that show that my hypothetical interpretation does not fit with scripture.
Kerwin! No you are wrong. Let me ask you again. What person fits this description. It is not the holy Spirit of God. Or His Word. It is to me Jesus….It is only Jesus that fits this. We should all know that Jesus is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
And it is not the word of God. Jesus is that gave us the Word of God, that's the difference…..
Think about it, your theory can't be , because The Word of God became flesh. ( John 1:14) And you have other Scriptures that shows us that Jesus preexisted His birth on earth.
Col. 1:15, Rev.3:14, John 6:38-40Peace Irene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 29 2010,07:16) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2010,14:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 29 2010,05:41) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2010,13:28) The verse reads: “And you, Lord, founded the earth at (the) beginning, an the Heavens are the works your hands” rather than “And you, Lord in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth…” The word “founded” means “to lay the basis for”, and the scripture states that “all things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made”.
Hi TimWhere is your source? No translation translates it that way that I know of. Where is the source of the definition of “Foundation”?
The problem is the text says that the foundation of the earth was made “By his hands” and the context clearly bears out it is Jesus hands that the writer is speaking of. How did Jesus own hands create the all things if he was not there?
WJ
Hi WJ:I was looking a Greek interlinear that I have in my possession which gives the KJV and the literal translation of Hebrews 1:10.
This is the way that YLT has it:
Quote Hebrews 1:10 (Young's Literal Translation) 10and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens;
My source for the definition of the Word “founded” is Stong's concordance and also Webster's dictionary.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyOK, so how did Jesus “found (lay the basis)” of the heavens and the earth “with his own hands if he was not there?
WJ
Hi WJ:Like this: God knew that a specific point in time He would conceive a Son. This is not hit and miss. God knew this prior to creating the heavens and the earth and its host. He existed in the heart of the Father.
Quote Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE (GOD) MADE THE WORLDS.
And there are many scriptures which state that God laid the foundation of the earth, like this one:
Quote Job 38
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2010,19:38) Marty, I just advanced a hypothesis to be tested by the posters here. It is not one I have been able to disprove myself. I also agree that it is plausible that Word actually means Word. I am not sure there is much difference between God’s Word and his Spirit as God speaks and his Spirit carries out his Word. It is much like me thinking and my arm carrying out my thoughts.
I believe that Hebrews 1:10 is quoted using the midrashic (comparative meaning) method which has since come in disfavor. Thus the scripture is not directly speaking of Jesus but applies to Jesus none the less. The question then becomes how does it apply to Jesus who we know it the mediator of the new covenant. I see your answer to that question and will take time to consider it. Thank you.
Hi Kerwin:God's Holy Spirit entails more than just His Word that he has spoken to humanity. What he has spoken to us is His Word as it relates to His love for us.
Again, His Holy Spirit is the life that He lives. He dwells within us as our Father to help us as we take on his divine nature as His children.
But also, He has created all of the heavens and the earth and its host by His Spirit for example.
I kinda see what you say relative to comparing His Spirit to your arm which carries out your thoughts, but I will have to dwell on this awhile and test it to see if there is a difference.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Baker @ Dec. 29 2010,07:12) Marty! Compare John 1;1-14 with this Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Is there any other being that fits that description?
??not that I know of….Scriptures taken from the blue letter bible on the Web….home page drop line
Peace and love Irene
Hi Irene:The scripture states “His name is called he Word of God”. His name refers to his authority as “head of the church”. God has made him both Lord and Christ, and he watches over the Word of God to perform it.
And the sword that goes out his mouth by which he rules with a rod of iron is the Word of God.
And so, what is your point? Are you still trying to show that he pre-existed by these scriptures? If so, you are going to have to explain your reasoning to me. I don't see where these scriptures have anything to do with him pre-existing his birth into this world.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Dec. 31 2010,17:09) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 29 2010,07:12) Marty! Compare John 1;1-14 with this Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Is there any other being that fits that description?
??not that I know of….Scriptures taken from the blue letter bible on the Web….home page drop line
Peace and love Irene
Hi Irene:The scripture states “His name is called he Word of God”. His name refers to his authority as “head of the church”. God has made him both Lord and Christ, and he watches over the Word of God to perform it.
And the sword that goes out his mouth by which he rules with a rod of iron is the Word of God.
And so, what is your point? Are you still trying to show that he pre-existed by these scriptures? If so, you are going to have to explain your reasoning to me. I don't see where these scriptures have anything to do with him pre-existing his birth into this world.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martythe word of God in John 1;1 is Christ in rev;it is also Christ name
then it changes into the written word of God like the sword in hid mouth ,
it is like the word spirit it does not always mean holy spirit ,
it could mean your thoughts ,your will,or you intended will.Pierre
Pierre,
Scripture states the Spirit is both given and dwells in those in the New Covenant. These scripture should answer your question.
John 3:34(NIV) reads:
Quote For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
1 Thessalonians 4:8 reads:
Quote Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 3:16 reads:
Quote Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
Ephesians 2:22 reads:
Quote And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
James 4:5 reads:
Quote Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us ?
John 1:14 reads:
Quote The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Worshipping Jesus,
I put little trust in experts that I consider men that probably are not carried along by the Spirit of God when they translate scripture. I do believe that God exists and is active and thus can speak for himself without an expert to translate or interpret what he states. The only expert he chooses is Jesus and the rest are at best but servants of his house or worst are servants of the enemy. I have no idea how to determine which unless God first reveals the truth to me to test the spirit of what they say.
As to whether I read Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, I use a substitute instead of reading those languages and that is a Lexicon. I trust to the point I have to the experts who put various possible translations of each word in that Lexicon. Even then I have seen bias so I am willing to consider any challenge to those experts. It is quite plausible that I would be in better stead if I fluently read those languages but I work with the tools God apportioned to me.
I agree that many are confident of what they believe and that their convictions come from God but that not all are correct in that belief for Lucifer comes looking like an angel of God. I see no scriptural evidence that opposes what I believe and plenty that disagrees with what you believe but then that is why I believe. The bottom line is no one can know the truth except they are led by God. Test your life and doctrine to make sure you are led by God.
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 30 2010,15:23) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2010,19:23) Irene, Why do you believe Jesus has the title of Word of God and God’s own Spirit does not?
I believe Ed was attempted to show by quoting Scripture that the Sword spoken of in Revelations 19:15 is the Word of God and we are instructed that the prophets of old spoke that same Word as they were carried along by the Spirit of Christ.
Jesus speaks that word because the Spirit dwells in him and God dwells in him through the Spirit that he has given Jesus in fulfillment of prophecy. My interpretation is supports the idea that John is speaking of God giving Jesus the Spirit of God in fulfillment of Isaiah 52:13-15.
I am looking to see though if anyone can provide scriptures that show that my hypothetical interpretation does not fit with scripture.
Hi Kerwin,Of course “The Word” is the HolySpirit: is the correct interpretation. Consider…
1Peter 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it
was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now
reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the HolySpirit sent
down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Both of your posts sound correct.Irene,
Even if this interpretation of John 1:1-17 is correct it does not prove that Jesus is non-preexistent. All it would prove is that the Spirit of God exists with God in some sense and is God is some sense and that the Spirit came down to dwell in Jesus thus making him God With Us. It would also prove that God With Us is the light that brings light into the World. There is perhaps more it would prove but I do not know what that could be.
I do agree with you that Revelations 19:13-16 is speaking of Jesus and gives him the title of the Word of God. I also believe that the Sword spoken of in those versus is the Word of God and that Jesus is speaking it as carried along by the Holy Spirit, 2 Peter 1:21.
For the purpose of this thread I am assuming the Spirit of God can also be called the Word and I am seeing if others know of any Scriptures that contradict that idea.
Marty,
I agree if the Spirit is referred to as God’s word it is not a declaration that they are exactly the same thing but merely that in one aspect the Spirit is the Word.
I am not completely sure of some things about the Spirit and one thing is whether God literally dwells in Jesus through the word of that it is Jesus that is doing just what God would do in the same circumstances because God’s driving force, The Spirit, is also Jesus’ driving force. I tend to favor the later.
I also believe he created all things by his Spirit with God speaking his Word and the Spirit fulfilling what God said.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 31 2010,18:16) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 30 2010,15:23) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2010,19:23) Irene, Why do you believe Jesus has the title of Word of God and God’s own Spirit does not?
I believe Ed was attempted to show by quoting Scripture that the Sword spoken of in Revelations 19:15 is the Word of God and we are instructed that the prophets of old spoke that same Word as they were carried along by the Spirit of Christ.
Jesus speaks that word because the Spirit dwells in him and God dwells in him through the Spirit that he has given Jesus in fulfillment of prophecy. My interpretation is supports the idea that John is speaking of God giving Jesus the Spirit of God in fulfillment of Isaiah 52:13-15.
I am looking to see though if anyone can provide scriptures that show that my hypothetical interpretation does not fit with scripture.
Hi Kerwin,Of course “The Word” is the HolySpirit: is the correct interpretation. Consider…
1Peter 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it
was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now
reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the HolySpirit sent
down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Both of your posts sound correct.
Hi Kerwin,Your fellow student! …Ed J
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2010,19:26) Mike Boll, This does not seem hard to understand by one whom claims scripture that is written by men is the Word of God. It does not care what instrument God used be it dog, man, angel, or even a donkey the word he speaks through them still originates with him.
I am totally convinced Jesus speaks the Word of God. Is a man speaking through the dog? Is a man using the angel as a speaker? If not then it is not a man speaking but if so it is a man speaking.
As to the answer to your question, there are the songs titled “me, myself, and I”. In the case of God and his Holy Spirit they are not physically connected as God nor does the Spirit have a physical element. The connection is spiritual. So the Spirit can be with God and is with God at all times and it is also in a sense God because God walks according to its ways and it is an expression of his will.
Sorry Kerwin,Your post is empty air. If someone says, “NOT MAN, BUT JESUS”, then the “NOT MAN” part CLEARLY and without a doubt says that Jesus is “NOT MAN”.
If this is the way you want to dance around the obvious and simple point I'm making, count me out. I've better things to do.
mike
Mike Boll,
So in your heart you choose to deny Scripture is the Word of God because it was written by the hand of man even though it is God that guides that hand. That is regrettable.
Paul states that his message is from God with these words:
Colossians 1:25(NIV) reads:
Quote I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness
Are you now agreeing with Trinitarians and declaring Jesus is God?
Why don’t you believe that Jesus is God with Us?
Have faith and believe for through his Spirit God has come to dwell with us.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2011,14:23) Mike Boll, So in your heart you choose to deny Scripture is the Word of God because it was written by the hand of man even though it is God that guides that hand. That is regrettable.
Paul states that his message is from God with these words:
Colossians 1:25(NIV) reads:
Quote I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness
Are you now agreeing with Trinitarians and declaring Jesus is God?
Why don’t you believe that Jesus is God with Us?
Have faith and believe for through his Spirit God has come to dwell with us.
Kerwin,I'm seriously starting to believe you're “off your rocker”!
Nothing you have said to my last FIVE posts has actually dealt with the issue.
Galatians 1:12
I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.Kerwin, do you agree that Paul was saying he DID NOT receive it from a MAN, but from JESUS CHRIST?
Please answer my DIRECT question DIRECTLY.
mike
Mike Boll,
I will repeat as I have stated in the last several posts that Paul received the Gospel from God. I have clarified my position by stating that just because he received it from God who dwells in Jesus through his Spirit does not mean Jesus is not a man.
Did Peter receive the gospel from God or from a man as you claim Jesus was a man when he taught Peter as he was carried along by the Spirit of God.
I cannot understand why someone who believes Jesus is the Anointed of God is disagreeing with these points. Can you please explain your position to illuminate me on that conundrum? Thank you.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2011,23:01) Mike Boll, I will repeat as I have stated in the last several posts that Paul received the Gospel from God. I have clarified my position by stating that just because he received it from God who dwells in Jesus through his Spirit does not mean Jesus is not a man.
Did Peter receive the gospel from God or from a man as you claim Jesus was a man when he taught Peter as he was carried along by the Spirit of God.
I cannot understand why someone who believes Jesus is the Anointed of God is disagreeing with these points. Can you please explain your position to illuminate me on that conundrum? Thank you.
Kerwinyour point is that you try to say that you beleive that Jesus was God.right ??
so that's your believe ,you also do not understand scriptures ,and you are only listen to your own views
you also think that you know something we do not know what you talking about ,we know,but why should we respond to fallacy??
I told you over the year in other topics ,your problem ,you follow men culture and opinions,it is so dipped in you it seems you can not separate it no longer,
you getting weird presentation has i have told you ,but you are a teacher hiding as a student this is a fallacy by it self
so you have no substance
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 31 2010,10:09) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 29 2010,07:12) Marty! Compare John 1;1-14 with this Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Is there any other being that fits that description?
??not that I know of….Scriptures taken from the blue letter bible on the Web….home page drop line
Peace and love Irene
Hi Irene:The scripture states “His name is called he Word of God”. His name refers to his authority as “head of the church”. God has made him both Lord and Christ, and he watches over the Word of God to perform it.
And the sword that goes out his mouth by which he rules with a rod of iron is the Word of God.
And so, what is your point? Are you still trying to show that he pre-existed by these scriptures? If so, you are going to have to explain your reasoning to me. I don't see where these scriptures have anything to do with him pre-existing his birth into this world.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyJesus is called the word of God, because he is the “spokesman” for God, and he never said anything but what the Father told him to say.
Now I will dispense with showing you scriptures since I believe you know them all, and if you don't believe scripture, what is the point for me to bring them up.
If Jesus did not preexist his birth as a man, then who is it that God created all things through?
How could God have send his son, if he had no son?
When Jesus' job was done, he ask the Father to give him back his glory that he had before the “world was”; what glory was that?Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2011,16:01) Mike Boll, I will repeat as I have stated in the last several posts that Paul received the Gospel from God. I have clarified my position by stating that just because he received it from God who dwells in Jesus through his Spirit does not mean Jesus is not a man.
Yes Kerwin, it DOES!If Paul said he recieved it not from man, but from God, then we would know for sure that God was not a man.
If Paul said he received it not from man, but from a dog, then we would know for sure that dog was not a man.
So when Paul says he received it not from man, but from Christ, then we likewise know for sure that Christ is no longer a man.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2011,16:01) Did Peter receive the gospel from God or from a man as you claim Jesus was a man when he taught Peter as he was carried along by the Spirit of God.
Peter received the gospel from the MAN Jesus, for the most part. His revelation that Jesus was the Son of the Most High God was said to come NOT FROM MAN, but from God.The rest he learned FROM THE MAN, JESUS. Because Jesus was teaching the words he recieved from God does not change the fact that Peter and the others were learning those words FROM A MAN at the time.
So later, when Paul says he received it NOT FROM MAN, but FROM CHRIST, that is a red flare going up to indicate that Jesus is NO LONGER A MAN.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,22:04) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2010,19:26) Mike Boll, This does not seem hard to understand by one whom claims scripture that is written by men is the Word of God. It does not care what instrument God used be it dog, man, angel, or even a donkey the word he speaks through them still originates with him.
I am totally convinced Jesus speaks the Word of God. Is a man speaking through the dog? Is a man using the angel as a speaker? If not then it is not a man speaking but if so it is a man speaking.
As to the answer to your question, there are the songs titled “me, myself, and I”. In the case of God and his Holy Spirit they are not physically connected as God nor does the Spirit have a physical element. The connection is spiritual. So the Spirit can be with God and is with God at all times and it is also in a sense God because God walks according to its ways and it is an expression of his will.
Sorry Kerwin,Your post is empty air. If someone says, “NOT MAN, BUT JESUS”, then the “NOT MAN” part CLEARLY and without a doubt says that Jesus is “NOT MAN”.
If this is the way you want to dance around the obvious and simple point I'm making, count me out. I've better things to do.
mike
MikeOr it could mean that Jesus is also God. Where do you get the notion that Jesus is no longer a man?
WJ
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