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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2012,06:49) Hi KW,
All men can only receive the Spirit while they live.
But flesh has no future
Nick;It is not written that “flesh has no future” but instead it is taught that time will be cut short in order to save flesh; for the sake of the Elect.
The Spirit performs many tasks; each as he is commanded and at the times he is instructed; and therefore at the time God has set he will declare the sons of God with power by their resurrection from the dead or the changing of their flesh; just as he did first with their Lord.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 08 2012,05:22) Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2012,13:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2012,08:17) 2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, “O LORD, open his eyes so he may see.” Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
To all;Did the horses and chariots of fire materialize or were they they there already and God opened the king's eyes to see them?
They were there. Just like Balaam's angel was there and able to be seen by the donkey before God opened Balaam's eyes to see him.
Mike;I agree with you on that point. What of the chariot of fire the split Elisha and Elijah apart so the later could be taken into heaven in a whirlwind?
Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2012,18:33) Your explanation is not simple, nor does it make sense as Jesus is born of women according to Scripture; which would make John the Baptist greater than he was while on Earth.
And how do YOU explain this conundrum, Kerwin? Also, what does this have to do with our current discussion?Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2012,18:33) You have some weird interpretations as unlike what you claim; flesh cannot be saved by turning it into something else.
Kerwin, listen very closely: Jesus certainly implies that some flesh WILL be saved. On this we agree. Now, could you please tell me how you jump from “flesh was saved” to “flesh inherited the Kingdom of God”?Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2012,18:33) Flesh and Spirit are what inherits the kingdom…….
What scripture teaches us this, Kerwin? Because I can quote Paul saying flesh cannot inherit, and I can quote Jesus teaching Nicodemus that flesh cannot enter. And Jesus doesn't use the words “and blood” like Paul does. Jesus teaches that since flesh gives birth to flesh, in order to enter the Kingdom of God, one must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh – they must be born again of spirit and water.Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2012,19:38) What of the chariot of fire the split Elisha and Elijah apart so the later could be taken into heaven in a whirlwind?
I don't believe the common understanding that spirit beings “create” bodies when they are to be seen. I believe they are around us all the time, but that it's rare for God to open a human's eyes to see them.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 08 2012,11:14) Wakeup, Kerwin is pointing out that, because God stops those last days short, flesh WILL be saved.
I don't yet know how he's connecting the existence of flesh beings with his claim that those flesh beings have inherited the Kingdom of God.
I'll have to wait for a response to my last post to him.
Mike.I can see where Kerwin is coming from.
he interprets the word ,saved as born again saved.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 08 2012,07:49) Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2012,19:38) What of the chariot of fire the split Elisha and Elijah apart so the later could be taken into heaven in a whirlwind?
I don't believe the common understanding that spirit beings “create” bodies when they are to be seen. I believe they are around us all the time, but that it's rare for God to open a human's eyes to see them.
Mike;I agree that that creatures of the realm of Spirit are present and yet unseen unless God chooses to open our eyes in order to see them.
In the case of Elijah and Elisha the angelic chariot seems to have enough physical presence to have forced the two men apart.
I've come back to trying to get back in my, a church. I stopped studying, and debating things a while ago, because I feared that I was being way to analytical on things, which I feared might cause me to think I knew something that I really did not. As, if I could find answers. And, somehow prove that I knew something that someone else did not.
This, is not the way one should go about doing things.
The, Bible tells us that Jesus rose from the dead. It also, mentions his brief time here on Earth, in his Risen form/state, whatever that may have been. (I just really am not sure myself).
There are some aspects that, show, or at least seem to maintain he still had his physical body, because of the account of Thomas touching the “nail holes, scars, etc etc”.
Then, there is reason to believe that his risen form was, well, somehow in transcendence to what “We” might refer to as “Flesh and Blood”. In that, he seemed to be able to do things that a “Flesh and Blood” being could not. Such as, suddenly appear in a sealed up, and closed room. Appear to people that formerly knew him, and not be recognized. And, to, well, simply just vanish from a place/room.
Now, he also, did similar things before he was in this risen form. Such as, Walked on water. Performed miracles such as healing, turning water into wine, not only just plain old wine…but the “Best” wine there was to be had, what we might call today a “Port” Wine, or “Desert” wine.
Was he caught up? That's a catchy phrase actually. I believe he did in fact “Ascend” to be with GOD the father, wherever that may be. Again, I'd like to use the word “Transcendent” here. Because, I do not fully understand the existence of GOD, Jesus, Holy Spirit. I just know that they do. Weather it be in one, two, three forms, or whatever. Being able to “Define” GOD is really not going to solve anything. The act of “Believing”, and having “Faith”, however, will.
To answer the question though, I personally maintain that Jesus was risen, ascended/caught up, in the form/existence, of both “Flesh and Blood”, and something that Transcends that. Spirit form, such as what the Bible states GOD exists in…Spirit, and that no man hath seen him at anytime.
We know he is not here, so he must be caught up. We know we have been in space, and there is not “Heaven” that we can “See” floating around out there. So, to where he was caught up, is yet to be revealed I suppose.
Like I said, I don't really have all the answers, and I have since come to realize that I can't explain things I don't understand. I just believe.
I could quote scriptures, shedding light on all these things. But most of us here already know the scriptures I speak of, and furthermore, they are already posted all over this website in forums, and documents. However, if someone reads what I've said, and wants me to provide scriptures on anything I've said I will do so if asked.
Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2012,14:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 08 2012,07:49) Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2012,19:38) What of the chariot of fire the split Elisha and Elijah apart so the later could be taken into heaven in a whirlwind?
I don't believe the common understanding that spirit beings “create” bodies when they are to be seen. I believe they are around us all the time, but that it's rare for God to open a human's eyes to see them.
Mike;I agree that that creatures of the realm of Spirit are present and yet unseen unless God chooses to open our eyes in order to see them.
In the case of Elijah and Elisha the angelic chariot seems to have enough physical presence to have forced the two men apart.
Kerwin.You believe in God, believe also in his power.
Jesus showed himself in the flesh,to proof to them that he is the one crucified. And to proof to us also.
He realy died and resurrected,given a glorified body.
The flesh is a lower existence,the glorified body is the final product.The children of God deserves a glorified body,a spirit body like the father.The flesh is for the sufferings,and death.
Once spirit always spirit forever,one with the Father.The flesh (chemicals)will be history,gone forever.
Jesus said; eat my flesh and drink my blood.
If he is still flesh,then that makes us cannibals.
Besides;how are we to eat his flesh and drink his blood? Can you tell me?Are we to chew on his flesh; but how is it done?wakeup.
Wakeup;
What you state is not taught in Scriptures. It is taught that the body that is laid in the grave is not the body that rises out of the grave. We are taught that the body that rose out of Jesus grave is flesh and bone and that it is that same body he was seen ascending to heaven in. We are also taught he will descend in the same manner.
To eat his flesh and drink his blood is to put on the new man created in his image. That is done by faith from first to last.
Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2012,02:21) Wakeup; What you state is not taught in Scriptures. It is taught that the body that is laid in the grave is not the body that rises out of the grave. We are taught that the body that rose out of Jesus grave is flesh and bone and that it is that same body he was seen ascending to heaven in. We are also taught he will descend in the same manner.
To eat his flesh and drink his blood is to put on the new man created in his image. That is done by faith from first to last.
Kerwin.My flesh is meat indeed,and my blood is drink indeed.His flesh is spirit,not meat and bone as you say.
How are you to eat his flesh?,since you say it is flesh and bone,not faith or spirit.
Are you to chew on his flesh?How is this done?
wakeup.
Many here should stop thinking from men's view toward God ,but rather see things from God point of view ,because after all things we are but dust ,
just because God gives us his grace we want to think that it is now dew to us
think again .just because we have read scriptures we are addressing all the words to ourself,and start to believe we are this or that and part of this or that ? think again,if you think you are special show the deeds of your faith ,
Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”pay attention to those words REV 22;15, and see if you comply with those in your deeds if not maybe it is time to do so ,
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2012,09:40) Hi KW,
Caught up from earth in flesh YES
Into heaven VERY DOUBTFUL
Nick;Is there any record of a transformation?
Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2012,11:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2012,09:40) Hi KW,
Caught up from earth in flesh YES
Into heaven VERY DOUBTFUL
Nick;Is there any record of a transformation?
Kerwin.We dont need proof by miracles,to see with our eyes.
The scriptures should show you the truth.wakeup.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2012,11:13) Hi KW,
The same manner refers to how he left not what he was clothed in.
I agree Nick.Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2012,18:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2012,09:40) Hi KW,
Caught up from earth in flesh YES
Into heaven VERY DOUBTFUL
Nick;Is there any record of a transformation?
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.Hi Kerwin,
While it isn't specifically stated that Jesus' body was transformed upon his ascension to heaven, Paul teaches the idea of lowly, earthly bodies being transformed into glorious new bodies like the one Jesus now has.
We also know from both Paul and Jesus that flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God. We also know that Jesus was not yet a spirit during the 40 days he remained on earth after his resurrection, but that he became a life-giving spirit.
I can't see any other option but that the flesh and bone body of Jesus was transformed upon his ascension to heaven – after he disappeared on the clouds.
Btw, to touch on Nick's point, Jesus returning the same way he left has to do with “on the clouds”. That's how he left, and scripture says that's how he'll return.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2012,16:26) Hi KW,
Would you ask to put your hand in his side too?
Nick;I am the one that believes he is flesh and bone and not solely composed of spirit.
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