Jesus' resurrection — a puzzle. – Page 9

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November 15, 2012 at 4:25 am#320388

david

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,09:29)

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:14)

…Okey doke

Paul taught that what “is sown a physical body… is raised a spiritual body”. And Peter wrote that when Christ “died in the flesh” he was resurrected “in the spirit”.

Might as well start with those two.

As to what Paul wrote, the following is from my post to journey on page 6 of this thread:

I have discussed 1 Corinthians 15 backwards and forwards for about 600 pages of posts in my “Do spirits have bodies?” thread. I am well aware of Paul's teachings in that passage. But I am also well aware that the vast majority of Paul's teachings were directed at the ELECT. He would say things like, “Brothers, WE will be like the angels”, or whatever, in a way that ASSUMED that all who were hearing him or reading his letters WERE members of the ELECT. But obviously, there will be many exceptions, since not EVERYONE who ever heard Paul or read his letters is a member of the ELECT, right?

I believe the teaching in 1 Cor is the same. It starts with a question: With what kind of body will the dead be raised? Now obviously, those who are raised just to go off to everlasting destruction will not be clothed with IMMORTALITY, right? So Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15 reflects how the ELECT, who will dwell in heaven, will be raised.

Jesus is not part of the ELECT – for he preceded them. Nor is there any foreseeable reason for any of the elect to be raised in the flesh body they died in, just to be transformed into a spiritual body. Jesus was an exception, because there WAS a reason for him to first come back in the body in which he died. (Notice that Paul says the body that is sown is perishable – yet the body of Jesus was not allowed to see decay like all the perishable bodies of those who will follow him. See? Another exception to the rule. Paul also says that not all will sleep, but all will be changed- which is yet another exception to his general rule for the raised bodies of the elect.)

As for what Peter wrote, can you show me the scripture where he says Jesus was resurrected in the spirit? I'm not familiar with that one.

From my first post:

JESUS WAS THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED TO SPIRIT LIFE.
Jesus was dead, and then he was resurrected, but not as a human (for he sacrificed his perfect human body.)

OTHERS WERE RESURRECTED BEFORE JESUS, SO WHEN JESUS IS REPEATEDLY SAID TO BE THE “FIRST” TO BE RESURRECTED, IT MUST MEAN THE FIRST IN SOME MANNER.
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD,”
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “ (Also see Rev 1:17,18)
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;

(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)

“Christ is not part of the ELECT–for he preceded them”–mike

See 1 cor 15:20 above. Does it not seem like he (although being first, or the firstfruits) is part of the same group? If you are the first, you are the first of many, and it seems, a part of the many.

November 15, 2012 at 5:44 am#320397

kerwin

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 15 2012,02:11)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,19:36)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,13:21)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,11:50)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,10:05)

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,02:58)

Quote

tell me, what was offered, was it the life or the body

Terrarica, as you know, one scripture specifically says he offered his body as a sacrifice. Of course, he gave up his (I would say “fleshly”) life.

You seem to want to make it an either/or problem. He offered his (human) life, FOR HE WAS A HUMAN. And, as scripture also specifically and directly says, he offered his (human) body.

David,

Where is it written that Jesus surrendered his human body?

On the other hand it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Jesus gave up his corruptible and mortal body and received an immortal and incorruptible one that is not made with human hands. As Mike states Jesus gave up the life of his mortal body and received the life of his immortal body.

this could not be applied to Christ

Hebrews 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

read that scripture untill you understand it ,

Jesus, like other humans, took part in flesh and blood, which is to say mortality. He did this that by giving up his mortal body he might destroy him that has the power of death. It ties into the words of 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.

There is a ton of information in the passage but the information I am using from it is that:

1] Each and every human shares flesh and blood, which is to say mortality.
2] In the same manner Jesus shared in flesh and blood, which is to say mortality.
3] Since he shared in mortality he was able to sacrifice his mortality, which is to say his mortal body, in order to vanquish Satan.

November 16, 2012 at 12:34 am#320517

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2012,23:49)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,08:35)

What we know is that Jesus died, and he is alive right now. By my measures, that means he got his life back.

Mike

JN 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

is this not mean that he took his live back?

Good scripture, Pierre.

What say you, David? It doesn't seem to me like Jesus is saying he will lay down ONE life, and receive a DIFFERNT life in return. The way I understand it, he is saying that the life he lays down is the life he will take back again.

Add that to your “raise it in three days” scripture, and it seems that both the life and body Jesus died with are the life and body Jesus takes back.

November 16, 2012 at 12:43 am#320521

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,21:25)

Does it not seem like he (although being first, or the firstfruits) is part of the same group? If you are the first, you are the first of many, and it seems, a part of the many.

Matthew 24:30-31
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

It seems Jesus is not a part of the elect, since they are HIS elect.

November 16, 2012 at 3:45 am#320576

david

Participant

Quote

1. Jesus appearing inside a locked building isn't too big of a deal for me, because we know that even as a human being, he walked on water and somehow transported himself to the other side of the sea. (Philip too seemed to vanish into thin air and appear many miles away as a human being.)

I'm going through this thread and adding all of your counter arguments to my file.

This idea about Philip. Do people generally believe that Philip vanished? I hadn't heard that before.

Acts 8:39. The Holy Spirit carried him away, understood to mean, led him away. In the account, it doesn't really seem like he vanished, but more like he went his way and the eunuch continued on, so that the eunuch didn't see him anymore. Although, the account does then say: “and Philip was found to be in Ashdod.” I guess that is odd wording.

This is a very small point. Just wondering if this is general belief?

November 16, 2012 at 3:52 am#320584

david

Participant

Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2012,16:57)

Quote

Questions: What was Jesus doing during the time after he was resurrected? He certainly wasn't spending time with his disciples. He appeared to them a few times, with them not recognizing him. Jesus was NOT spending time with his disciples. So, where was he? Who was he staying with? Where did he sleep? What was he doing with his time? For me, these questions, or that lack of any answer that seems to make sense fits in with the idea of Jesus appearing inside of locked rooms. He appeared in the locked room. Where was he before that? What was he doing before that?

Does it not seem odd to anyone at all that Jesus, their best friend, their Lord, had died, and was resurrected, but they weren't clinging to him? They weren't following him? They weren't with him? They weren't absolutely sticking to him like glue??

If I was there and Jesus was resurrected, and was around and available, guess who I would be hanging out with 24 hours a day? Jesus! For some reason, this was not the case. He appeared to them. Then, he was gone. He appeared. Then gone. He appeared in a locked room.

Try to put yourself into the situation. If Jesus was just tortured to death, and resurrected, do you know what I would be thinking about all the time: Jesus! So, when a person calls out, if that person looked anything like Jesus, with Jesus on my mind, I would have saw Jesus. But, his very close disciples, his brothers, his closest of companions, did not recognize him, and were to afraid to ask: “who are you”?

Doesn't that hurt your head a little?

Looking at my own post, it could just as easily be asked;.

If he was a spirit, where was he during this time? He wasn't in heaven, and didn't ascend into heaven until later, when they saw him do this. So, if he was a spirit, where was he?

November 16, 2012 at 3:58 am#320587

david

Participant

Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2012,17:09)

Quote

2. Is there a scripture that actually says the BODY of Jesus was the sacrifice? I'm asking because I don't know for sure, but I don't remember reading a scripture such as that. The ones I remember say that Jesus sacrificed his LIFE as atonement – not his BODY.

(And considering that there is even ONE scripture that says Jesus sacrificed his LIFE, your “reneging on the ransom” point is moot, for we all know he got his LIFE back, right?)

The second point in brackets: No, we don't all know that he got his “human” life back. Some of us believe that:

1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”

I checked other Bibles: The KJV for some reason says “by” the spirit, but virtually all others say “in the spirit.” Also, Mike, similar to the Heb 10:10 scripture that says he offered his “BODY,” this scripture is someone similar in saying he died “in the flesh.”

New International Version (©1984)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This is true because Christ suffered for our sins once. He was an innocent person, but he suffered for guilty people so that he could bring you to God. His body was put to death, but he was brought to life through his spirit.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

American King James Version
For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

American Standard Version
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,

Darby Bible Translation
for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit,

English Revised Version
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit;

Webster's Bible Translation
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

Weymouth New Testament
because Christ also once for all died for sins, the innocent One for the guilty many, in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,

World English Bible
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Young's Literal Translation
because also Christ once for sin did suffer — righteous for unrighteous — that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

“As for what Peter wrote, can you show me the scripture where he says Jesus was resurrected in the spirit? I'm not familiar with that one.”–mike, page 14.

I quoted it 19 times on page 2.

November 16, 2012 at 4:02 am#320589

david

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2012,12:56)

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2012,23:57)

Answer these same questions concerning the OTHER 40 days that Jesus was being “sanctified” – the 40 days in the wilderness.

David, you are making good arguments………… but none of them will ever convince me that Jesus LIED to his disciples in Luke 24:39.

Instead of creating the argument that I believe Jesus lied, you are better off to prove to me that pneuma can not mean and logically wouldn't mean “apparition.” I don't think Jesus lied. I am helping you to defeat me. Focus on this one scripture. Focus on the word pneuma.

November 16, 2012 at 4:18 am#320590

terraricca

Participant

david

Quote

being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

can you give me your understanding of this part of the verse thank you

November 16, 2012 at 4:32 am#320593

terraricca

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 15 2012,10:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 15 2012,02:11)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,19:36)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,13:21)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,11:50)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,10:05)

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,02:58)

Quote

tell me, what was offered, was it the life or the body

Terrarica, as you know, one scripture specifically says he offered his body as a sacrifice. Of course, he gave up his (I would say “fleshly”) life.

You seem to want to make it an either/or problem. He offered his (human) life, FOR HE WAS A HUMAN. And, as scripture also specifically and directly says, he offered his (human) body.

David,

Where is it written that Jesus surrendered his human body?

On the other hand it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

this could not be applied to Christ

Hebrews 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

read that scripture untill you understand it ,

There is a ton of information in the passage but the information I am using from it is that:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,;;WHO ARE THE CHILDREN ??

he also himself ; why does it says “HE “AND “himself “”

likewise took part of the same; WOULD THIS MEAN THAT HE TOOK PART OF SOME THING HE DID NOT HAVE TO

that through death;;THIS IS AN ACT

he might destroy ;;THIS IS THE PURPOSE

him ;; HIS THE POWER THAT HAS TO BE NUTRALIZED,

that had the power of death, that is, the devil;WHY DOES THE DEVIL AS THAT POWER WHAT WAS ,HIS THAT POWER FOR ,
WHY COULD IT BE DESTROYED BY ANOTHER DEAD

November 16, 2012 at 11:37 am#320632

kerwin

Participant

Hebrews 2:17
King James Version (KJV)

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The children are his siblings.
He was made like them.

“he, himself” is a way to emphasize the person being spoke of.
Both Jesus and his siblings share “flesh and blood”. Jesus' sharing is emphasized in Hebrews 2:14(KJV) but was not his choice according to Hebrews 2:17(KJV).

Jesus sacrificed himself that we might be free from the chains of death. For he that is chained to sin is also chained to death as the wages of sin are death. Satan is the one that holds us bound.

Jesus died even though he, a human, did not earn the wages of sin. In this way the evil one stands condemned as the evil despot he is.

John 16:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

November 16, 2012 at 11:44 am#320633

kerwin

Participant

Quote (david @ Nov. 16 2012,08:58)