Jesus&#39; resurrection &#8212; a puzzle.

Participant

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,04:47)

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,09:45)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,09:17)

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:02)

So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.

I believe it was transformed in the air. I think Pierre agrees.

I ink we can add this to the list of things you two disagree about. See page 13.

Or not.

Pierre said is:

no,i do not believe that it disappears, the declaration that the body will not see decay does not mean at all that it disappears ,but could easy stand for reuse of it ,because it means it is not destroyed ,right

Ok, you agree, I suppose.

david

I agree with Mike that he lost his body in the air wen he was elevated to heaven .

November 13, 2012 at 11:54 pm#320159

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,09:29)

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:14)

…Okey doke

Paul taught that what “is sown a physical body… is raised a spiritual body”. And Peter wrote that when Christ “died in the flesh” he was resurrected “in the spirit”.

Might as well start with those two.

As to what Paul wrote, the following is from my post to journey on page 6 of this thread:

I have discussed 1 Corinthians 15 backwards and forwards for about 600 pages of posts in my “Do spirits have bodies?” thread. I am well aware of Paul's teachings in that passage. But I am also well aware that the vast majority of Paul's teachings were directed at the ELECT. He would say things like, “Brothers, WE will be like the angels”, or whatever, in a way that ASSUMED that all who were hearing him or reading his letters WERE members of the ELECT. But obviously, there will be many exceptions, since not EVERYONE who ever heard Paul or read his letters is a member of the ELECT, right?

I believe the teaching in 1 Cor is the same. It starts with a question: With what kind of body will the dead be raised? Now obviously, those who are raised just to go off to everlasting destruction will not be clothed with IMMORTALITY, right? So Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15 reflects how the ELECT, who will dwell in heaven, will be raised.

Jesus is not part of the ELECT – for he preceded them. Nor is there any foreseeable reason for any of the elect to be raised in the flesh body they died in, just to be transformed into a spiritual body. Jesus was an exception, because there WAS a reason for him to first come back in the body in which he died. (Notice that Paul says the body that is sown is perishable – yet the body of Jesus was not allowed to see decay like all the perishable bodies of those who will follow him. See? Another exception to the rule. Paul also says that not all will sleep, but all will be changed- which is yet another exception to his general rule for the raised bodies of the elect.)

As for what Peter wrote, can you show me the scripture where he says Jesus was resurrected in the spirit? I'm not familiar with that one.

From my first post:

1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)

November 14, 2012 at 12:07 am#320161

Blocked

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,16:44)

They can know and strongly believe it was Jesus, but him having a different appearance, they would have a desire to ask: “who are you.” To me, that is logical.

I have already agreed with you, David. I believe you have offered the most sensible understanding of why they “knew” but “didn't know”. They “knew” because of the miracle, but “didn't know” because the physical appearance was different.

Once again, I AGREE. And once again, it still doesn't prove Jesus was raised in a spiritual body.

November 14, 2012 at 12:32 am#320167

Participant

“They “knew” because of the miracle, but “didn't know” because the physical appearance was different.”

Simplified:

“the physical appearance [of jesus] was different.”

So, his face was different?

As we know, I have connected the apparent fact that Jesus wasn't physically recognizable to his closest friends in this account, with the other accounts where he isn't recognized, with the idea that he was raised in the spirit, and the idea that he took on different forms.

On this side, we also have words like ransom and sacrifice, which I think argue for what I believe.

On your side, you have an unexplainable mystery, and the account where Jesus says he isn't a spirit, a word with more than one meaning.

I almost feel like taking the resurrection out of the puzzle and just focusing on this other mystery in a separate thread.

November 14, 2012 at 12:40 am#320168

Blocked

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,16:54)

From NETNotes:

“It is often objected that the Holy Spirit cannot be in view because the two datives of v 18 (σαρκί, πνεύματι [sarki, pneumati]) would then have a different syntactical force (sphere, means). But if 1 Pet 3:18 is a hymnic or liturgical fragment, this can be no objection because of ‘poetic license’: poetry is replete with examples of grammatical and lexical license, not the least of which is the use of the same morpho-syntactic categories, in parallel lines, with entirely different senses (note, e.g., the dat. expressions in 1 Tim 3:16).”

Let's compare:
1 Timothy 3:16 NWT
Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’

All the bolded words are datives. Yet, you'll notice that all the underlined words are not the same. For your point to be accurate, it seems that ALL of the underlined words above should be “in”, or “among”, or “to”. Yet those words are used interchangeably with all these datives. So a translation of “by the Spirit” is at least possible in 3:18. That was just for your own knowledge.

Now, let's assume that “in the spirit” is correct. Jesus was in the spirit by the time Peter wrote these words, right? So his words don't necessarily mean that Jesus was raised IMMEDIATELY from the dead as a spirit being.

It is similar to some other words of Peter that you and I have discussed before:

Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Remember that discussion, David? From Peter's words, it sounds as if God made Jesus Lord and Christ AFTER he was crucified, right? But neither of us understand it that way, do we? It could be the same thing with Peter's words in 3:18, right?

At any rate, you have seen expert testimony and a scriptural example that renders 3:18 ambiguous concerning our current discussion. And since it's meaning is open to many interpretations, it is not the concrete proof you are looking for. And since it's not decisive, I think this scripture should be cast aside, as we make our way through the rest of your list.

November 14, 2012 at 12:58 am#320169

Blocked

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,17:32)

So, his face was different?

Sounds reasonable to me.

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,17:32)

OR…………….. God made his face PHYSICALLY different.

OR……………… God made it so they couldn't recognize him. (There is already a scripture that SPECIFICALLY says the latter happened on a different occasion, right?)

So while you have definitely pushed YOUR understanding of WHY Jesus' face was different, there is no scriptural proof that it is the CORRECT understanding. In fact, Luke 24:16 adds support to MY understanding, not YOURS.

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,17:32)

On this side, we also have words like ransom and sacrifice, which I think argue for what I believe.

Of course you THINK that, but is it the truth? We have shown you where it is said he sacrificed his LIFE, yet we all know he got that back, right?

And today, YOU showed US how the temple of Jesus' BODY was raised back up after the Jews destroyed it, right?

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,17:32)

On your side, you have an unexplainable mystery, and the account where Jesus says he isn't a spirit, a word with more than one meaning.

I'm not sure what these words mean, David. I don't consider the straight forward statement by our Lord, “spirits DON'T have flesh and bone, as you see I DO HAVE”, to be an “unexplainable mystery”.

It seems to me that I'm doing what I set out to do: Casting doubt on each one of your “proofs” – one by one. Don't get me wrong, David, for I used to believe as you now do. But after reading 24:39, I went back and checked all my “supporting scriptures”, and found them all lacking as concrete proof of anything. I'm hoping you will begin to see the same thing as this discussion progresses.

November 14, 2012 at 1:46 am#320188

Participant

Quote

Of course you THINK that, but is it the truth? We have shown you where it is said he sacrificed his LIFE, yet we all know he got that back, right?

No, we don't all know that. That is exactly what we are discussing.

I don't believe he got his (human) life back. I think he ransomed that. I think he sacrificed it.

I think he, Jesus, who was a human at the time, sacificed that life, giving it up as a ransom sacrifice, and God later brought Jesus back to life, but didn't give him his human fleshly life back, but rather, raise him as a spirit.

November 14, 2012 at 1:48 am#320189

Participant

Quote

I'm not sure what these words mean, David. I don't consider the straight forward statement by our Lord, “spirits DON'T have flesh and bone, as you see I DO HAVE”, to be an “unexplainable mystery”.

This wasn't the mystery I was referring to. I was referring to your ideas, which you low listed above as “OR….”
“OR….”

Why do you think that god either:

Made his face different?
Somehow blocked their minds so that they couldn't recognize him?

November 14, 2012 at 2:53 am#320195

Participant

david

Quote

we all agree that Christ willingly died in a human form ,but what was the reason for it MT 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

JN 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
JN 6:63 “ It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

JN 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, “ I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

MT 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

this was the true reason for the son of man to come down from heaven ,so that the son of God can fulfill ;

JN 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
JN 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

so to prove that he was resurrected has he said he would HE ATH TO SHOW HIMSELF AS HE WAS BEFORE HIS RESURECTION ,AND THAT IS WHAT IS SAID IN LUKE ;24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

AFTER THIS WAS DONE AND ESTEBLISHED IT DID NOT MATTER BECAUSE THE 11 APOSTLES HAVE BEEN CONVINCED OF THE TRUTH ABOUT HIM ,AND SO WAS PAUL LATER IN A DIFFERENT WAY,AT THAT TIME CHRIST WAS ACTING AS THE SON OF GOD AND NOT AS THE SON OF MAN,

IT IS LIKE THIS ;HE WAS THE SON OF GOD –THEN HE HIS THE SON OF MAN — THEN HE HIS THE SON OF GOD FOR ETERNITY

November 14, 2012 at 3:35 am#320209

Blocked

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,18:46)

Quote

Of course you THINK that, but is it the truth? We have shown you where it is said he sacrificed his LIFE, yet we all know he got that back, right?

No, we don't all know that. That is exactly what we are discussing.

I don't believe he got his (human) life back.

Well, that's your problem then. You can think it means “human life”, but no scripture says that.

What we know is that Jesus died, and he is alive right now. By my measures, that means he got his life back.

November 14, 2012 at 3:36 am#320210

Blocked

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,18:48)

Why do you think that god either:

Made his face different?
Somehow blocked their minds so that they couldn't recognize him?

I don't know why. Why do you suppose He did it in Luke 24:16?

November 14, 2012 at 5:05 am#320219

Participant

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,02:58)

Quote

tell me, what was offered, was it the life or the body

Terrarica, as you know, one scripture specifically says he offered his body as a sacrifice. Of course, he gave up his (I would say “fleshly”) life.

You seem to want to make it an either/or problem. He offered his (human) life, FOR HE WAS A HUMAN. And, as scripture also specifically and directly says, he offered his (human) body.

David,

Where is it written that Jesus surrendered his human body?

On the other hand it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Jesus gave up his corruptible and mortal body and received an immortal and incorruptible one that is not made with human hands. As Mike states Jesus gave up the life of his mortal body and received the life of his immortal body.

November 14, 2012 at 5:44 am#320225

Participant

Kerwins,

HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.”

I agree with your last sentence: he gave up his mortal (human) body and received the life of his immortal (spiritual) body.

November 14, 2012 at 6:49 am#320241

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,08:35)

Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,18:46)

Quote

Of course you THINK that, but is it the truth? We have shown you where it is said he sacrificed his LIFE, yet we all know he got that back, right?

No, we don't all know that. That is exactly what we are discussing.

I don't believe he got his (human) life back.

Well, that's your problem then. You can think it means “human life”, but no scripture says that.

What we know is that Jesus died, and he is alive right now. By my measures, that means he got his life back.

Mike

JN 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

is this not mean that he took his live back if so wich one

November 14, 2012 at 6:50 am#320243

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,10:05)

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,02:58)

Quote

tell me, what was offered, was it the life or the body

Terrarica, as you know, one scripture specifically says he offered his body as a sacrifice. Of course, he gave up his (I would say “fleshly”) life.

You seem to want to make it an either/or problem. He offered his (human) life, FOR HE WAS A HUMAN. And, as scripture also specifically and directly says, he offered his (human) body.

David,

Where is it written that Jesus surrendered his human body?

On the other hand it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

this could not be applied to Christ

November 14, 2012 at 8:21 am#320258

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,11:50)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,10:05)

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,02:58)

Quote

tell me, what was offered, was it the life or the body

Terrarica, as you know, one scripture specifically says he offered his body as a sacrifice. Of course, he gave up his (I would say “fleshly”) life.

You seem to want to make it an either/or problem. He offered his (human) life, FOR HE WAS A HUMAN. And, as scripture also specifically and directly says, he offered his (human) body.

David,

Where is it written that Jesus surrendered his human body?

On the other hand it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

this could not be applied to Christ

Hebrews 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

November 14, 2012 at 8:24 am#320260

Participant

David,

Was mankind created mortal or immortal?

November 14, 2012 at 2:36 pm#320355

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,13:21)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,11:50)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,10:05)

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,02:58)

Quote

tell me, what was offered, was it the life or the body

Terrarica, as you know, one scripture specifically says he offered his body as a sacrifice. Of course, he gave up his (I would say “fleshly”) life.

You seem to want to make it an either/or problem. He offered his (human) life, FOR HE WAS A HUMAN. And, as scripture also specifically and directly says, he offered his (human) body.

David,

Where is it written that Jesus surrendered his human body?

On the other hand it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

this could not be applied to Christ

Hebrews 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

read that scripture untill you understand it ,

November 14, 2012 at 9:11 pm#320364

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,19:36)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,13:21)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,11:50)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2012,10:05)

Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,02:58)

Quote

tell me, what was offered, was it the life or the body

Terrarica, as you know, one scripture specifically says he offered his body as a sacrifice. Of course, he gave up his (I would say “fleshly”) life.

You seem to want to make it an either/or problem. He offered his (human) life, FOR HE WAS A HUMAN. And, as scripture also specifically and directly says, he offered his (human) body.

David,

Where is it written that Jesus surrendered his human body?

On the other hand it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

this could not be applied to Christ

Hebrews 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

read that scripture untill you understand it ,

Jesus, like other humans, took part in flesh and blood, which is to say mortality. He did this that by giving up his mortal body he might destroy him that has the power of death. It ties into the words of 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.

November 15, 2012 at 3:35 am#320381