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Quote scriptures also says that his body will not see decay ( just as the body of Moses was never found ,but he was not resurrected ) Right. So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,03:02) Quote scriptures also says that his body will not see decay ( just as the body of Moses was never found ,but he was not resurrected ) Right. So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
no,i do not believe that it disappears, the declaration that the body will not see decay does not mean at all that it disappears ,but could easy stand for reuse of it ,because it means it is not destroyed ,right
Lk 24:7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”
Jesus here talks about his manhood right
Lk 24:38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
Lk 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Lk 24:40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.it seems to me that scriptures says “””It is I myself “”” is this not mean ;i am the same as before
“Moreover, after these things he appeared in another form to two of them walking along, as they were going into the country;” (mark 16:12)
How do others understand this?
Can mike give me his undestanding of what happened after Jesus performed the miracle of the catching of fish on the beach?
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,08:06) Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,03:02) Quote scriptures also says that his body will not see decay ( just as the body of Moses was never found ,but he was not resurrected ) Right. So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
no,i do not believe that it disappears, the declaration that the body will not see decay does not mean at all that it disappears ,but could easy stand for reuse of it ,because it means it is not destroyed ,right
So, where is that body now?Quote What we should do now is discuss those 20 scriptures, ONE AT A TIME, and see if any particular one of them can ONLY mean that Jesus was raised as a spirit being Okey doke.
…Okey doke
Paul taught that what “is sown a physical body… is raised a spiritual body”. And Peter wrote that when Christ “died in the flesh” he was resurrected “in the spirit”.
Might as well start with those two.
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,03:06) Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,03:02) Quote scriptures also says that his body will not see decay ( just as the body of Moses was never found ,but he was not resurrected ) Right. So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
no,i do not believe that it disappears, the declaration that the body will not see decay does not mean at all that it disappears ,but could easy stand for reuse of it ,because it means it is not destroyed ,rightLk 24:7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”
Jesus here talks about his manhood right
Lk 24:38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
Lk 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Lk 24:40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.it seems to me that scriptures says “””It is I myself “”” is this not mean ;i am the same as before
david read this again
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,08:22) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2012,03:06) Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,03:02) Quote scriptures also says that his body will not see decay ( just as the body of Moses was never found ,but he was not resurrected ) Right. So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
no,i do not believe that it disappears, the declaration that the body will not see decay does not mean at all that it disappears ,but could easy stand for reuse of it ,because it means it is not destroyed ,rightLk 24:7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”
Jesus here talks about his manhood right
Lk 24:38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
Lk 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Lk 24:40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.it seems to me that scriptures says “””It is I myself “”” is this not mean ;i am the same as before
david read this again
Read it again? It wasn't there before. Ok.Hi terr. Yes, I have recently noticed that idea.
“Behold My hands and My feet….it is I Myself”
This certainly seems to point in the direction you believe.
Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,14:53) [John 2:19-22] is a scripture that seems to counter act the line of reasoning i was using on the scripture that says he offered his body.
Yep. You've beat yourself up pretty good with that one.Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:10) Can mike give me his undestanding of what happened after Jesus performed the miracle of the catching of fish on the beach?
I think you had the best understanding of us all, David. It makes perfect sense that they knew it was the Lord on account of the miracle, but he didn't have the same appearance to them as before he died.This could be explained by your view that he was now in a spiritual body, BUT…………….. it could also, just as easily be explained by Luke 24:16.
Since it has an alternate explanation, it is not concrete proof that Jesus was raised as a spirit being – and therefore should be cast out of our discussion.
Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:02) So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
I believe it was transformed in the air. I think Pierre agrees.Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:09) “Moreover, after these things he appeared in another form to two of them walking along, as they were going into the country;” (mark 16:12) How do others understand this?
Could be that God caused their eyes to see a different form, like in Luke 24:16. Or it could be that God caused Jesus' body to actually take on a different form.After all, this was a man who was transfigured into something brighter than the sun at one point. He also walked on water. He also appeared on the other side of the sea with no apparent explanation of how he got there. And he did all of those things as a flesh and blood human being, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,04:17) Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:02) So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
I believe it was transformed in the air. I think Pierre agrees.
MikeYes I do ; at that point ,their was nothing left for Christ to do or show as THE SON OF MAN ,because at the moment he disappears he his now the only SON OF GOD
Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:14) …Okey doke Paul taught that what “is sown a physical body… is raised a spiritual body”. And Peter wrote that when Christ “died in the flesh” he was resurrected “in the spirit”.
Might as well start with those two.
As to what Paul wrote, the following is from my post to journey on page 6 of this thread:I have discussed 1 Corinthians 15 backwards and forwards for about 600 pages of posts in my “Do spirits have bodies?” thread. I am well aware of Paul's teachings in that passage. But I am also well aware that the vast majority of Paul's teachings were directed at the ELECT. He would say things like, “Brothers, WE will be like the angels”, or whatever, in a way that ASSUMED that all who were hearing him or reading his letters WERE members of the ELECT. But obviously, there will be many exceptions, since not EVERYONE who ever heard Paul or read his letters is a member of the ELECT, right?
I believe the teaching in 1 Cor is the same. It starts with a question: With what kind of body will the dead be raised? Now obviously, those who are raised just to go off to everlasting destruction will not be clothed with IMMORTALITY, right? So Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15 reflects how the ELECT, who will dwell in heaven, will be raised.
Jesus is not part of the ELECT – for he preceded them. Nor is there any foreseeable reason for any of the elect to be raised in the flesh body they died in, just to be transformed into a spiritual body. Jesus was an exception, because there WAS a reason for him to first come back in the body in which he died. (Notice that Paul says the body that is sown is perishable – yet the body of Jesus was not allowed to see decay like all the perishable bodies of those who will follow him. See? Another exception to the rule. Paul also says that not all will sleep, but all will be changed- which is yet another exception to his general rule for the raised bodies of the elect.)
As for what Peter wrote, can you show me the scripture where he says Jesus was resurrected in the spirit? I'm not familiar with that one.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,09:13) Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:10) Can mike give me his undestanding of what happened after Jesus performed the miracle of the catching of fish on the beach?
I think you had the best understanding of us all, David. It makes perfect sense that they knew it was the Lord on account of the miracle, but he didn't have the same appearance to them as before he died.This could be explained by your view that he was now in a spiritual body, BUT…………….. it could also, just as easily be explained by Luke 24:16.
Since it has an alternate explanation, it is not concrete proof that Jesus was raised as a spirit being – and therefore should be cast out of our discussion.
Hi michael,They aren't the same though. In the per account, they did not know it was Jesus, because their minds were kept from knowing for some reason. (I wonder what that reason is)
In this account, they “KNEW” exactly who it was. They “knew” it was The Lord.
They can't simultaneously now it is The Lord and also not know it is The Lord. Can they?
They can know and strongly believe it was Jesus, but him having a different appearance, they would have a desire to ask: “who are you.” To me, that is logical. It's not logical to simultaneously know and not now that it is Jesus.
They had tremendous evidence (the familiar miracle) to know it was Jesus. But on coming much closer, the desire to ask “who are you” was upon their minds DESPITE knowing it was Jesus.
I have trouble with the idea that they both knew it was Jesus and also didn't know it was Jesus.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,09:17) Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:02) So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
I believe it was transformed in the air. I think Pierre agrees.
I ink we can add this to the list of things you two disagree about. See page 13.Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2012,09:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,09:17) Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2012,15:02) So, at some point, his body disappeared. I believe this happened in the tomb. You believe it disappeared in the air.
I believe it was transformed in the air. I think Pierre agrees.
I ink we can add this to the list of things you two disagree about. See page 13.
Or not.Pierre said is:
no,i do not believe that it disappears, the declaration that the body will not see decay does not mean at all that it disappears ,but could easy stand for reuse of it ,because it means it is not destroyed ,right
Ok, you agree, I suppose.
Quote I have discussed 1 Corinthians 15 backwards and forwards for about 600 pages of posts in my “Do spirits have bodies?” thread. I am well aware of Paul's teachings in that passage. But I am also well aware that the vast majority of Paul's teachings were directed at the ELECT. He would say things like, “Brothers, WE will be like the angels”, or whatever, in a way that ASSUMED that all who were hearing him or reading his letters WERE members of the ELECT. But obviously, there will be many exceptions, since not EVERYONE who ever heard Paul or read his letters is a member of the ELECT, right? Sounds surprisingly similar to things a certain group I know says. “GET HIM!”
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