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Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,09:36) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 08 2012,09:03) Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,03:50) So, they were afraid to ask: “who are you” because they knew it was The Lord. I get that. That is in fact what the scripture says.
It's not what I'm asking. Why would they have any reason to ever have to ask that.
QUESTION: If you have a best friend, or a family member you spend your time with for 3 years, what reason would you have to ask them: “who are you”?, and being afraid to ask, knowing it is your friend.
Obviously, you would know and recognize your friend, by voice, by sight, by action.
Jesus disciples certainly recognized it was Jesus (by action) when he performed the miracle. Yet, I'm suggesting that when they came ashore, they could not identify him by sight, despite bowing it was Jesus.
Davidyes that is what I have mention previously, at the shore he did not look like the first time and any other time after that ,, guessing here
Hi terr,So, you think Jesus didn't look the same, after his resurrection? Is that what you are saying?
DavidQuote So, you think Jesus didn't look the same, after his resurrection? Is that what you are saying? Mt 28:6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said.
Mt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Mk 16:14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
Lk 24:11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.
Jn 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
Jn 20:20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.Jn 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Jn 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jn 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”Jn 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
Jn 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.now this ;;;
Jn 21:1 Afterward Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Tiberias. It happened this way:
Jn 21:6 He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
Jn 21:7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water.
Jn 21:8 The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.
Jn 21:9 When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.
Jn 21:10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.”
Jn 21:11 Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn.
Jn 21:12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord.Lk 24:15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them;
Lk 24:16 but they were kept from recognizing him.Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Lk 24:28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther.
Lk 24:29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
Lk 24:30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them.
Lk 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.Lk 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
Lk 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
Lk 24:38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
Lk 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Lk 24:40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.
Lk 24:41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?”so David here we have most of the scriptures talking of the appearences of Christ after his resurrection ,the last verses discribed what was it that the first day wen he appears to his disciples took place ,SO WOULD YOU SAY THAT CHRIST HERE DID NOT LOOK THE WAY HE WAS BEFORE HIS DEAD
NOW i CONCLUDE THAT HE WAS WASHED UP .Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,10:20) Washed up? Meaning?
DAVIDI am apologizing this was my mistake and please cancel that wash thing out .
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 08 2012,07:37) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,17:11) The bottom line is that Jehovah concealed Jesus' features and voice from his students; so that he would be known by his actions.
That is an interesting speculation, Kerwin.David, why don't you tell us what it meant that they didn't want to ask “Who are you?” .
What do you want us to say? We have all given our best ideas to explain this conundrum, and you're not happy with any of those ideas. So why don't you tell us what it meant?
Also, what does this hard to understand scripture have to do with your point here?
Let's say the answer is that Jesus was unrecognizable to them, because he SOUNDED like Jesus, but didn't LOOK like Jesus. Then what? Would that somehow prove that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being?
If so, I don't see how.
Mike,It is more than speculation based on John 21:4 which explicitly states they did not recognize him. He speaks in 21:5 but nerveless it is in John 21:7 after a miracles haul of fish that results from following his word that the students first realize who he is.
It is written in:
Luke 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.so given that it seems reasonable to conclude that God hid Jesus' appearance, of both visual and vocal. Since his identity was exposed by the by obedience to his action of speaking it was what God allowed. As for their obedience, is seems reasonable to conclude it was because their hearts burned in them even though they did not recognize him.
Luke 24:32
King James Version (KJV)32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
david
also understand that their was a first time and other times,and you question his in regard to a later time ,right
Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,09:45) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2012,10:11) David, I am not sure what your point is but the obvious answer is that Jesus' features were obscured in some way. Looking through the account I learned it was morning and he was about 90 meters/100 yards away from them when he stood on the shore and gave them advice. They listened to that advice though they seemed not to recognize his voice. He had moved from the shore to beside a fire by the the time they had landed.
It was morning before breakfast and therefore might have been dark still which makes the fact they appeared not to have recognized his voice as a more telling point.
The bottom line is that Jehovah concealed Jesus' features and voice from his students; so that he would be known by his actions.
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because THEY KNEW it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)Regardless if Jesus features were obscured, they knew it was Jesus. See above.
Also, while on the boat, right after the miracle, Peter said: IT IS THE LORD, and he jumped into the sea to swim ashore.
Question: if they “knew it was The Lord” (21:12), in what sense was his identity concealed, as you say?
My whole question revolves around a sentence in the bible that BOTH says they knew it was him, and simultaneously, were afraid to ask: WHO ARE YOU?
Why is no one understanding what I am asking?
David,Reading through the account it bears certain similarities with the account of Luke 24:13-32, specifically verse 16. Their eyes were opened in verse 31 as they went from unbelief, v25, to belief, v32.
Note, that if they had listened to their hearts at first they would have known him, v32. The fishermen seemed to have been listening closer to their hearts because they obeyed his voice even before his identity was revealed by the catch of fish.
They know he was Jesus by the catch of fish and not by vocal or visual features.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2012,15:42) Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,09:45) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2012,10:11) David, I am not sure what your point is but the obvious answer is that Jesus' features were obscured in some way. Looking through the account I learned it was morning and he was about 90 meters/100 yards away from them when he stood on the shore and gave them advice. They listened to that advice though they seemed not to recognize his voice. He had moved from the shore to beside a fire by the the time they had landed.
It was morning before breakfast and therefore might have been dark still which makes the fact they appeared not to have recognized his voice as a more telling point.
The bottom line is that Jehovah concealed Jesus' features and voice from his students; so that he would be known by his actions.
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because THEY KNEW it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)Regardless if Jesus features were obscured, they knew it was Jesus. See above.
Also, while on the boat, right after the miracle, Peter said: IT IS THE LORD, and he jumped into the sea to swim ashore.
Question: if they “knew it was The Lord” (21:12), in what sense was his identity concealed, as you say?
My whole question revolves around a sentence in the bible that BOTH says they knew it was him, and simultaneously, were afraid to ask: WHO ARE YOU?
Why is no one understanding what I am asking?
David,Reading through the account it bears certain similarities with the account of Luke 24:13-32, specifically verse 16. Their eyes were opened in verse 31 as they went from unbelief, v25, to belief, v32.
Note, that if they had listened to their hearts at first they would have known him, v32. The fishermen seemed to have been listening closer to their hearts because they obeyed his voice even before his identity was revealed by the catch of fish.
They know he was Jesus by the catch of fish and not by vocal or visual features.
Yes kerwins, exactly: they knew it was Jesus by the catch if fish, while they were 100 yards say, as you say.Peter says its e lord and jumps into the water to swim ashore.
On them getting ashore, though, despite knowing it was The Lord,
THEY WERE AFRAID TO ASK: “WHO ARE YOU.”
Now kerwins, they, knowing who it was, why would they ever have any desire to ask: who are you?”
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,22:27) Mike, It is more than speculation based on John 21:4 which explicitly states they did not recognize him.
Luke 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:16 NLT ©
But they didn’t know who he was, because God kept them from recognizing him.I believe Kerwin has solved the puzzle, David. And the solution doesn't seem to indicate that Jesus was a spirit who materialized different bodies.
I'm sticking with Jesus' own words in Luke 24:39. He said, “Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,11:32) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,22:27) Mike, It is more than speculation based on John 21:4 which explicitly states they did not recognize him.
Luke 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:16 NLT ©
But they didn’t know who he was, because God kept them from recognizing him.I believe Kerwin has solved the puzzle, David. And the solution doesn't seem to indicate that Jesus was a spirit who materialized different bodies.
I'm sticking with Jesus' own words in Luke 24:39. He said, “Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Mike. He isn't the first to suggest that in is thread.They WERE NOT kept from recognizing him in this account. (Remember Peter jumping into the water to swim to him after saying “it is The Lord”? ? ?
For the seventy third time, they “KNEW” it was The Lord. (See actual scripture itself)
The FACT that they “K N E W” appears in the exact same sentence where we are told they seemed to want to, but were lacking courage to ask: “who are you?”
PUZZLE NOT EXPLAINED BY THIS THEORY.
I think we should look at the scripture again:
The Puzzle: Why would Jesus’ disciples who were standing in front of him ever have to ask Jesus: “Who are you”?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Peter knew and stated that it was The Lord, (while 100 yards away, and unable to see him close up).
And the disciples…NOT ONE of the disciples, had the courage to ask: “who are you” because YES, they “knew” it was Jesus.PRETEND
Lets just imagine that Jesus was materializing different bodies. In this account, it would make perfect sense. From far off, by his actions, they knew (recognized) it was Jesus. On coming much closer, ashore, if his body was totally different, they would still know it was Jesus, based on his actions, but, that urge to ask: “who are you” would certainly be there. Yet, they would be afraid to ask, because it would sort of show a lack of faith and a lack of being able to recognize their master.They were afraid to ask “who are you” because eh knew it was e lord.
This idea fits perfectly with words like “ransom” and “sacrifice” which have actual meaning. It agrees with many scriptures that speaking of him being raised a spirit.
That one scripture, the “spirit” one, is one that on first reading, definitely appears to say the opposite of all these other things. But spirit has many meanings.
And on a side note, no one seems to be providing any solution to this puzzle that makes any kind of sense based on the fact that they “knew it was The Lord.”
Quote (david @ Nov. 09 2012,08:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,11:32) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,22:27) Mike, It is more than speculation based on John 21:4 which explicitly states they did not recognize him.
Luke 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:16 NLT ©
But they didn’t know who he was, because God kept them from recognizing him.I believe Kerwin has solved the puzzle, David. And the solution doesn't seem to indicate that Jesus was a spirit who materialized different bodies.
I'm sticking with Jesus' own words in Luke 24:39. He said, “Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Mike. He isn't the first to suggest that in is thread.They WERE NOT kept from recognizing him in this account. (Remember Peter jumping into the water to swim to him after saying “it is The Lord”? ? ?
For the seventy third time, they “KNEW” it was The Lord. (See actual scripture itself)
The FACT that they “K N E W” appears in the exact same sentence where we are told they seemed to want to, but were lacking courage to ask: “who are you?”
PUZZLE NOT EXPLAINED BY THIS THEORY.
Davidit was John that first recognized Christ and upon his words Peter got to swim a shore, it was the miracle that give christ away to john, and Peter and then to the others ,so they well know but did not physicly recognized him,this was not the first enconter ,
and for that reason they did not dear to ask WHO ARE YOU,
because if they would have Jesus would have ask them well did you not find fish were I told you ???they add a dillema to solve and they solve it by not asking who he was,
Quote (david @ Nov. 09 2012,08:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,11:32) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,22:27) Mike, It is more than speculation based on John 21:4 which explicitly states they did not recognize him.
Luke 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:16 NLT ©
But they didn’t know who he was, because God kept them from recognizing him.I believe Kerwin has solved the puzzle, David. And the solution doesn't seem to indicate that Jesus was a spirit who materialized different bodies.
I'm sticking with Jesus' own words in Luke 24:39. He said, “Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Mike. He isn't the first to suggest that in is thread.They WERE NOT kept from recognizing him in this account. (Remember Peter jumping into the water to swim to him after saying “it is The Lord”? ? ?
For the seventy third time, they “KNEW” it was The Lord. (See actual scripture itself)
The FACT that they “K N E W” appears in the exact same sentence where we are told they seemed to want to, but were lacking courage to ask: “who are you?”
PUZZLE NOT EXPLAINED BY THIS THEORY.
David,The passage tells us when they knew it was Jesus and it was when they hauled in the fish after doing what he advised. That is the only way in which the words infer they knew him in the whole passage.
Quote (david @ Nov. 09 2012,06:05) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2012,15:42) Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,09:45) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2012,10:11) David, I am not sure what your point is but the obvious answer is that Jesus' features were obscured in some way. Looking through the account I learned it was morning and he was about 90 meters/100 yards away from them when he stood on the shore and gave them advice. They listened to that advice though they seemed not to recognize his voice. He had moved from the shore to beside a fire by the the time they had landed.
It was morning before breakfast and therefore might have been dark still which makes the fact they appeared not to have recognized his voice as a more telling point.
The bottom line is that Jehovah concealed Jesus' features and voice from his students; so that he would be known by his actions.
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because THEY KNEW it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)Regardless if Jesus features were obscured, they knew it was Jesus. See above.
Also, while on the boat, right after the miracle, Peter said: IT IS THE LORD, and he jumped into the sea to swim ashore.
Question: if they “knew it was The Lord” (21:12), in what sense was his identity concealed, as you say?
My whole question revolves around a sentence in the bible that BOTH says they knew it was him, and simultaneously, were afraid to ask: WHO ARE YOU?
Why is no one understanding what I am asking?
David,Reading through the account it bears certain similarities with the account of Luke 24:13-32, specifically verse 16. Their eyes were opened in verse 31 as they went from unbelief, v25, to belief, v32.
Note, that if they had listened to their hearts at first they would have known him, v32. The fishermen seemed to have been listening closer to their hearts because they obeyed his voice even before his identity was revealed by the catch of fish.
They know he was Jesus by the catch of fish and not by vocal or visual features.
Yes kerwins, exactly: they knew it was Jesus by the catch if fish, while they were 100 yards say, as you say.Peter says its e lord and jumps into the water to swim ashore.
On them getting ashore, though, despite knowing it was The Lord,
THEY WERE AFRAID TO ASK: “WHO ARE YOU.”
Now kerwins, they, knowing who it was, why would they ever have any desire to ask: who are you?”
David,Even at that time God hid Jesus' visual and audio identity from them for his own reason. It seemed reasonable it was a variation of by their fruits you will know them.
Kerwin, why are you saying that in this account, God hid Jesus identity from them?
We know he didn't.
1.on seeing the miracle, Peter said: it is The Lord
2. The verse in question actually says: 'for they knew it was the lord'So, no identity hid here. If they knew his identity, then his identity was not hid from them.
For the seventy fourth Tim, they “knew” it was The Lord.
Why does everyone want to say that they didn't know it was The Lord?
1. He performed a miracle that should have instantly made them know his identity.
2. Peter believed it was Jesus saying: it is The Lord.
3. On the beach, they were afraid to ask: “who are you” for they “knew it was The Lord.”Quote …..so they well know [it was jesus] but did not physicly recognized him, this was not the first enconter , and for that reason they did not dear to ask WHO ARE YOU,
because if they would have Jesus would have ask them well did you not find fish were I told you ???they add a dillema to solve and they solve it by not asking who he was,
Terra rica, so, you are saying, just like me, that they knew it was Jesus, but did not physically recognize him. (Hence, this solves e puzzle)
So, terra rica, why did they not physically recognize him, while simultaneously knowing it was him?
Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,20:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,11:32) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,22:27) Mike, It is more than speculation based on John 21:4 which explicitly states they did not recognize him.
Luke 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:16 NLT ©
But they didn’t know who he was, because God kept them from recognizing him.I believe Kerwin has solved the puzzle, David. And the solution doesn't seem to indicate that Jesus was a spirit who materialized different bodies.
I'm sticking with Jesus' own words in Luke 24:39. He said, “Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
They WERE NOT kept from recognizing him in this account.PUZZLE NOT EXPLAINED BY THIS THEORY.
Luke 24:32
They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”Same deal here, David. They kind of knew it was Jesus, but even though they had that sinking feeling, and their hearts were burning, they didn't ask him, “Hey dude, are you Jesus?”
Puzzle solved.
Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,20:57) And on a side note, no one seems to be providing any solution to this puzzle that makes any kind of sense based on the fact that they “knew it was The Lord.”
YOU included, David.Your theory that Jesus was a spirit being who materialized a body they didn't recognize offers the same exact conclusion as God keeping their eyes from recognizing him.
It still doesn't answer how they KNEW him but didn't want to ask who he was.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:32) Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,20:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,11:32) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,22:27) Mike, It is more than speculation based on John 21:4 which explicitly states they did not recognize him.
Luke 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:16 NLT ©
But they didn’t know who he was, because God kept them from recognizing him.I believe Kerwin has solved the puzzle, David. And the solution doesn't seem to indicate that Jesus was a spirit who materialized different bodies.
I'm sticking with Jesus' own words in Luke 24:39. He said, “Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
They WERE NOT kept from recognizing him in this account.PUZZLE NOT EXPLAINED BY THIS THEORY.
Luke 24:32
They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”Same deal here, David. They kind of knew it was Jesus, but even though they had that sinking feeling, and their hearts were burning, they didn't ask him, “Hey dude, are you Jesus?”
Puzzle solved.
For the 75th Tim, the difference is, in this account, in the very same sentence, we are told they “knew” it was The Lord. They knew it was Jesus! Peter, jumping into the water knew it was Jesus.They KNEW it was Jesus
So, why would they ever have to ask: who are you, if they knew that?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:35) Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2012,20:57) And on a side note, no one seems to be providing any solution to this puzzle that makes any kind of sense based on the fact that they “knew it was The Lord.”
YOU included, David.Your theory that Jesus was a spirit being who materialized a body they didn't recognize offers the same exact conclusion as God keeping their eyes from recognizing him.
It still doesn't answer how they KNEW him but didn't want to ask who he was.
What? They knew it was him before they came ashore. They recognized him by the very familiar miracle. Who else would it be?
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