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Ezekiel 23:20
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.I believe the reference is to Egyptians, now that I've re-read the context. I mistakenly remembered it as Ethiopians. My bad.
Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) Questions: what do you think they are eating in heaven? Is the food made up of protein, carbs and fat? Do they need protein to build muscle? Carbs for energy?
I don't know WHAT they are eating, only that these spirit beings will be eating. And “NO” to the rest of the questions.Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) “Eating doesn't prove one is not a spirit being.” Agreed.
But it would show that the person is actually there and not imagined.
There is no indication that Jesus was just “imagined” by the disciples in Luke 24:39. They thought he was a spirit, and he said he wasn't. Neither of us believe Jesus the person was not actually there, right? So what's the point of this line of questioning?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2012,05:04) Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) Questions: what do you think they are eating in heaven? Is the food made up of protein, carbs and fat? Do they need protein to build muscle? Carbs for energy?
I don't know WHAT they are eating, only that these spirit beings will be eating. And “NO” to the rest of the questions.Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) “Eating doesn't prove one is not a spirit being.” Agreed.
But it would show that the person is actually there and not imagined.
There is no indication that Jesus was just “imagined” by the disciples in Luke 24:39. They thought he was a spirit, and he said he wasn't. Neither of us believe Jesus the person was not actually there, right? So what's the point of this line of questioning?
I'm starting to wonder if you have read any of my posts.Of course we both believe Jesus was there. I'm not arguing Jesus WASNT there. I'm not arguing Jesus was an apparition or phantom.
I'm arguing that THEY, on first seeing him, were startled and frighten ended, imagining THEY were seeing an apparition, or imagining that they weren't really seeing Jesus who suddenly appeared in the locked room.
Then, Jesus goes on to explain that a “spirit” (understood as phantom or apparition) can't eat food. He was really there. They were not imagining things.
No David. They thought they had seen a spirit. Jesus went on to explain to them that he was not a spirit, because spirits aren't comprised of flesh and bone – things he clearly had.
He said nothing about spirits not being able to eat human food.
I have read your posts, and I have addressed your claims. Here, I'll do it again:
YOU THINK that the disciples thought they were seeing an apparition (an imagined thing, and not a spirit, a real thing, as is written), and that Jesus told them he was not an apparition, but instead a spirit being who materialized a body.
I THINK that interpretation goes way beyond the normal reaching I often deal with on this site.
Are we understanding each other yet?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 21 2012,06:44) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 20 2012,05:23) MIke B.. In the book of enoch,it says specifically,that they have their private parts as horses.
I wasn't aware that the bigger the “flesh” penis, the gianter the offspring.
(Btw, God made the same comparison about the private parts of the Ethiopians he was sending against Israel.)
this is not true according to the guiness book of reccords
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,00:20) Mike, which scripture is that about the Ethiopians?
AC 8:27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 25 2012,06:30) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,00:20) Mike, which scripture is that about the Ethiopians?
AC 8:27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,
I think we are talking about something else.Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,12:41) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 25 2012,06:30) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,00:20) Mike, which scripture is that about the Ethiopians?
AC 8:27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,
I think we are talking about something else.
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2012,11:21) A PUZZLE (John 21:12) Looking at commentaries, some describe John 21:12 as “somewhat puzzling.”
The Puzzle: Why would Jesus’ disciples who were standing in front of him ever have to ask Jesus: “Who are you”?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Let’s look at John 21.
“After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the sea of Ti·beri·as; but he made the manifestation in this way.” (John 21:1)
The disciples had been fishing through the night. It was just getting to be morning, and Jesus was standing on the beach. (I’m curious as to where Jesus was in between these appearances. He seems to pop out of nowhere and vanish just the same.) Anyway, we are told the disciples did not discern that it was Jesus. (John 21:4) But it was still likely dark and he was 100 yards away. So that’s completely understandable. But they could hear his voice.
“Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!”” (John 21:5-7)
Why hadn’t Jesus followers recognized him as being Jesus sooner? Would they not have recognized the voice of their master? And this was “the third time that Jesus appeared to the disciples after his being raised up from the dead.” (John 21:14)
This disciple (most likely John) discerned that it was Jesus, not because of recognizing any personal characteristic of Jesus, but after seeing the miracle.
After disembarking onto land, Jesus told them to bring some of the fish, and Jesus said: “Come, take your breakfast.”
Then what?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Other translations read exactly the same. Instead of “had the courage to inquire” others say: “dared to ask” or “were in fear of putting the question.”They were lacking courage to ask who this man was. If you have a friend that you spend three years with and he goes away for a few days and then comes back, and visits you three times, what possible reason would there for having to ask “Who are you” on the third visit?
MY QUESTION: Why would they ever need to ask that question if he was standing right in front of them? Standing before them was the one whom they had followed, and learned from. Why would they ever need to ask that question? (Also, remember, this is the third time he appeared to the disciples as a group.)
“it should be remembered that there was something about the appearance of the risen Jesus which was different enough to make immediate recognition difficult.”
http://bible.org/seriespage/exegetical-commentary-john-21The question is, “what” was different about his appearance? Some say that because he was resurrected, he was glowing, or whatever. But, this was the third time they saw him, and heard him.
Here's the answer and here's what the Bible says:
JESUS WAS THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED TO SPIRIT LIFE.
Jesus was dead, and then he was resurrected, but not as a human (for he sacrificed his perfect human body.)OTHERS WERE RESURRECTED BEFORE JESUS, SO WHEN JESUS IS REPEATEDLY SAID TO BE THE “FIRST” TO BE RESURRECTED, IT MUST MEAN THE FIRST IN SOME MANNER.
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD,”
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “ (Also see Rev 1:17,18)
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)
JESUS GAVE UP HIS PERFECT HUMAN LIFE, HIS SOUL, AS A RANSOM SACRIFICE.
(If you think Jesus was given that human life back, with his human body, then would this not be like taking the ransom back. He forfeited, gave up, surrendered his human life. It was a sacrifice.)
1 TIMOTHY 2:5,6
“…a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all….”
MATTHEW 20:28
“…the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
COLOSIANS 1:14
“…by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.”
TITUS 2:13,14
“…Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us…”
JOHN 10:17,18
“I surrender my soul…No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.”
1 JOHN 2:2:
“He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins…”A RANSOM IS the price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back. It might be compared to the price paid for the release of a prisoner of war. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. It is similar to the price paid to cover the damages caused by an injury. For example, if a person causes an accident, he would have to pay an amount that fully corresponds to, or equals, the value of what was damaged.
ROMANS 5:12
“Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Yes, all of us have inherited sin from Adam. Hence, the Bible says that he “sold” himself and his offspring into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14)JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come ag
ain and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
Acts 10:40 (New American Standard Bible)
1 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1, 4; Lu 24:15, 16.
The Bible is very clear when it says:
“Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Caps added)
It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, WHY DID THEY NOT AT FIRST RECOGNIZE HIM? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16)
After Jesus’ resurrection MARY MISTOOK HIM for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15)
On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE ON THAT OCCASION FOR HIM TO SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THEIR MIDST EVEN THOUGH THE DOORS WERE LOCKED? (John 20:24-29) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)
Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity.
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course [yet/however], discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”
(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? The reason they kne
w it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.
Why is it that only after catching a multitude of fish one of the disciples figures it must be Jesus? And that was the 3rd time he appeared to his disciples! (John 21:14)
Why did Jesus perform this miracle, of the fish?Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; YET, THE RESURRECTED JESUS ALWAYS APPEARED FULLY CLOTHED.—John 20:6, 7.
Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.
WHERE DID HIS BODY GO?
The physical body of Jesus Christ was not allowed to decay into dust as did the bodies of Moses and David, men who were used to foreshadow Christ. (De 34:5, 6; Ac 13:35, 36; 2:27, 31) When his disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, his body doubtless having been disintegrated without passing through the process of decaying.—Joh 20:2-9; Lu 24:3-6.
Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.But since the apostle THOMAS was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.
While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. And remember, at other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.LUKE 24:31-35
“…and he disappeared from them. And they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?” And in that very hour they rose and returned to Jerusalem, and they found the eleven and those with them assembled together, saying: “For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!” Now they themselves related the [events] on the road and how he became known to them by the breaking of the loaf.”
David,
This is copy and pasted yet you did not say. It's in the watchtower, yes?Quote (2besee @ Sep. 27 2013,08:19) Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2012,11:21) A PUZZLE (John 21:12) Looking at commentaries, some describe John 21:12 as “somewhat puzzling.”
The Puzzle: Why would Jesus’ disciples who were standing in front of him ever have to ask Jesus: “Who are you”?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Let’s look at John 21.
“After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the sea of Ti·beri·as; but he made the manifestation in this way.” (John 21:1)
The disciples had been fishing through the night. It was just getting to be morning, and Jesus was standing on the beach. (I’m curious as to where Jesus was in between these appearances. He seems to pop out of nowhere and vanish just the same.) Anyway, we are told the disciples did not discern that it was Jesus. (John 21:4) But it was still likely dark and he was 100 yards away. So that’s completely understandable. But they could hear his voice.
“Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!”” (John 21:5-7)
Why hadn’t Jesus followers recognized him as being Jesus sooner? Would they not have recognized the voice of their master? And this was “the third time that Jesus appeared to the disciples after his being raised up from the dead.” (John 21:14)
This disciple (most likely John) discerned that it was Jesus, not because of recognizing any personal characteristic of Jesus, but after seeing the miracle.
After disembarking onto land, Jesus told them to bring some of the fish, and Jesus said: “Come, take your breakfast.”
Then what?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Other translations read exactly the same. Instead of “had the courage to inquire” others say: “dared to ask” or “were in fear of putting the question.”They were lacking courage to ask who this man was. If you have a friend that you spend three years with and he goes away for a few days and then comes back, and visits you three times, what possible reason would there for having to ask “Who are you” on the third visit?
MY QUESTION: Why would they ever need to ask that question if he was standing right in front of them? Standing before them was the one whom they had followed, and learned from. Why would they ever need to ask that question? (Also, remember, this is the third time he appeared to the disciples as a group.)
“it should be remembered that there was something about the appearance of the risen Jesus which was different enough to make immediate recognition difficult.”
http://bible.org/seriespage/exegetical-commentary-john-21The question is, “what” was different about his appearance? Some say that because he was resurrected, he was glowing, or whatever. But, this was the third time they saw him, and heard him.
Here's the answer and here's what the Bible says:
JESUS WAS THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED TO SPIRIT LIFE.
Jesus was dead, and then he was resurrected, but not as a human (for he sacrificed his perfect human body.)OTHERS WERE RESURRECTED BEFORE JESUS, SO WHEN JESUS IS REPEATEDLY SAID TO BE THE “FIRST” TO BE RESURRECTED, IT MUST MEAN THE FIRST IN SOME MANNER.
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD,”
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “ (Also see Rev 1:17,18)
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)
JESUS GAVE UP HIS PERFECT HUMAN LIFE, HIS SOUL, AS A RANSOM SACRIFICE.
(If you think Jesus was given that human life back, with his human body, then would this not be like taking the ransom back. He forfeited, gave up, surrendered his human life. It was a sacrifice.)
1 TIMOTHY 2:5,6
“…a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all….”
MATTHEW 20:28
“…the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
COLOSIANS 1:14
“…by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.”
TITUS 2:13,14
“…Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us…”
JOHN 10:17,18
“I surrender my soul…No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.”
1 JOHN 2:2:
“He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins…”A RANSOM IS the price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back. It might be compared to the price paid for the release of a prisoner of war. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. It is similar to the price paid to cover the damages caused by an injury. For example, if a person causes an accident, he would have to pay an amount that fully corresponds to, or equals, the value of what was damaged.
ROMANS 5:12
“Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Yes, all of us have inherited sin from Adam. Hence, the Bible says that he “sold” himself and his offspring into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14)JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
Acts 10:40 (New American Standard Bible)
1 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1, 4; Lu 24:15, 16.
The Bible is very clear when it says:
“Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Caps added)
It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, WHY DID THEY NOT AT FIRST RECOGNIZE HIM? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16)
After Jesus’ resurrection MARY MISTOOK HIM for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15)
On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE ON THAT OCCASION FOR HIM TO SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THEIR MIDST EVEN THOUGH THE DOORS WERE LOCKED? (John 20:24-29) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)
Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity.
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course [yet/however], discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it w
as the Lord.”
(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? The reason they knew it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.
Why is it that only after catching a multitude of fish one of the disciples figures it must be Jesus? And that was the 3rd time he appeared to his disciples! (John 21:14)
Why did Jesus perform this miracle, of the fish?Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; YET, THE RESURRECTED JESUS ALWAYS APPEARED FULLY CLOTHED.—John 20:6, 7.
Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.
WHERE DID HIS BODY GO?
The physical body of Jesus Christ was not allowed to decay into dust as did the bodies of Moses and David, men who were used to foreshadow Christ. (De 34:5, 6; Ac 13:35, 36; 2:27, 31) When his disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, his body doubtless having been disintegrated without passing through the process of decaying.—Joh 20:2-9; Lu 24:3-6.
Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.But since the apostle THOMAS was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.
While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. And remember, at other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.LUKE 24:31-35
“…and he disappeared from them. And they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?” And in that very hour they rose and returned to Jerusalem, and they found the eleven and those with them assembled together, saying: “For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!” Now they themselves related the [events] on the road and how he became known to them by the breaking of the loaf.”
David,
This is copy and pasted yet you did not say. It's in the watchtower, yes?
Um, no.You might find the thoughts are similar, but this is taken from a file I developed while studying these scriptures years ago. I've pasted it into a couple of threads, when this topic comes up.
It's from one of my files on my computer.
Ok. Re-read it. The illustration, yes. The ransom definition, pretty much yes. The rest was me pulling what I considered to be related scriptures together.
I think you will also find some of the commentary, such as the first sentence (the “somewhat puzzling) is taken from commentary found in http://www.biblecc.com website.
So David, why do you follow the teachings of men? I'm asking from my heart.
Jesus said he was flesh and bone, and was not deceiving them.
There is no puzzle, you just have to believe.
Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,06:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2012,05:04) Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) Questions: what do you think they are eating in heaven? Is the food made up of protein, carbs and fat? Do they need protein to build muscle? Carbs for energy?
I don't know WHAT they are eating, only that these spirit beings will be eating. And “NO” to the rest of the questions.Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) “Eating doesn't prove one is not a spirit being.” Agreed.
But it would show that the person is actually there and not imagined.
There is no indication that Jesus was just “imagined” by the disciples in Luke 24:39. They thought he was a spirit, and he said he wasn't. Neither of us believe Jesus the person was not actually there, right? So what's the point of this line of questioning?
I'm starting to wonder if you have read any of my posts.Of course we both believe Jesus was there. I'm not arguing Jesus WASNT there. I'm not arguing Jesus was an apparition or phantom.
I'm arguing that THEY, on first seeing him, were startled and frighten ended, imagining THEY were seeing an apparition, or imagining that they weren't really seeing Jesus who suddenly appeared in the locked room.
Then, Jesus goes on to explain that a “spirit” (understood as phantom or apparition) can't eat food. He was really there. They were not imagining things.
David.This is what *WE* on earth should be eating.
Jesus *LIVED BY THE FATHER*Eat the Father.
and so do the angels.John 6:56 He that **eateth my flesh**, and **drinketh my blood**, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and ****I live by the Father****: so he that **eateth me**, even he shall live by me.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 27 2013,20:41) Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,06:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2012,05:04) Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) Questions: what do you think they are eating in heaven? Is the food made up of protein, carbs and fat? Do they need protein to build muscle? Carbs for energy?
I don't know WHAT they are eating, only that these spirit beings will be eating. And “NO” to the rest of the questions.Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) “Eating doesn't prove one is not a spirit being.” Agreed.
But it would show that the person is actually there and not imagined.
There is no indication that Jesus was just “imagined” by the disciples in Luke 24:39. They thought he was a spirit, and he said he wasn't. Neither of us believe Jesus the person was not actually there, right? So what's the point of this line of questioning?
I'm starting to wonder if you have read any of my posts.Of course we both believe Jesus was there. I'm not arguing Jesus WASNT there. I'm not arguing Jesus was an apparition or phantom.
I'm arguing that THEY, on first seeing him, were startled and frighten ended, imagining THEY were seeing an apparition, or imagining that they weren't really seeing Jesus who suddenly appeared in the locked room.
Then, Jesus goes on to explain that a “spirit” (understood as phantom or apparition) can't eat food. He was really there. They were not imagining things.
David.This is what *WE* on earth should be eating.
Jesus *LIVED BY THE FATHER*Eat the Father.
and so do the angels.John 6:56 He that **eateth my flesh**, and **drinketh my blood**, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and ****I live by the Father****: so he that **eateth me**, even he shall live by me.
wakeup.
are you on drugs
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 28 2013,02:06) Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 27 2013,20:41) Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,06:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2012,05:04) Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) Questions: what do you think they are eating in heaven? Is the food made up of protein, carbs and fat? Do they need protein to build muscle? Carbs for energy?
I don't know WHAT they are eating, only that these spirit beings will be eating. And “NO” to the rest of the questions.Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2012,21:31) “Eating doesn't prove one is not a spirit being.” Agreed.
But it would show that the person is actually there and not imagined.
There is no indication that Jesus was just “imagined” by the disciples in Luke 24:39. They thought he was a spirit, and he said he wasn't. Neither of us believe Jesus the person was not actually there, right? So what's the point of this line of questioning?
I'm starting to wonder if you have read any of my posts.Of course we both believe Jesus was there. I'm not arguing Jesus WASNT there. I'm not arguing Jesus was an apparition or phantom.
I'm arguing that THEY, on first seeing him, were startled and frighten ended, imagining THEY were seeing an apparition, or imagining that they weren't really seeing Jesus who suddenly appeared in the locked room.
Then, Jesus goes on to explain that a “spirit” (understood as phantom or apparition) can't eat food. He was really there. They were not imagining things.
David.This is what *WE* on earth should be eating.
Jesus *LIVED BY THE FATHER*Eat the Father.
and so do the angels.John 6:56 He that **eateth my flesh**, and **drinketh my blood**, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and ****I live by the Father****: so he that **eateth me**, even he shall live by me.
wakeup.
are you on drugs
Terra.Why do you say that?
Have you got a bible to read?
Read John 6.
This would be beyond your comprehension.
But at least try.My drug is the holy spirit.
wakeup.
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