Jesus' resurrection — a puzzle.

[david]

A PUZZLE (John 21:12)

Looking at commentaries, some describe John 21:12 as “somewhat puzzling.”

The Puzzle: Why would Jesus’ disciples who were standing in front of him ever have to ask Jesus: “Who are you”?

“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)

Let’s look at John 21.

“After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the sea of Ti·beri·as; but he made the manifestation in this way.” (John 21:1)

The disciples had been fishing through the night. It was just getting to be morning, and Jesus was standing on the beach. (I’m curious as to where Jesus was in between these appearances. He seems to pop out of nowhere and vanish just the same.) Anyway, we are told the disciples did not discern that it was Jesus. (John 21:4) But it was still likely dark and he was 100 yards away. So that’s completely understandable. But they could hear his voice.

“Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!”” (John 21:5-7)

Why hadn’t Jesus followers recognized him as being Jesus sooner? Would they not have recognized the voice of their master? And this was “the third time that Jesus appeared to the disciples after his being raised up from the dead.” (John 21:14)

This disciple (most likely John) discerned that it was Jesus, not because of recognizing any personal characteristic of Jesus, but after seeing the miracle.

After disembarking onto land, Jesus told them to bring some of the fish, and Jesus said: “Come, take your breakfast.”

Then what?

“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Other translations read exactly the same. Instead of “had the courage to inquire” others say: “dared to ask” or “were in fear of putting the question.”

They were lacking courage to ask who this man was. If you have a friend that you spend three years with and he goes away for a few days and then comes back, and visits you three times, what possible reason would there for having to ask “Who are you” on the third visit?

MY QUESTION: Why would they ever need to ask that question if he was standing right in front of them? Standing before them was the one whom they had followed, and learned from. Why would they ever need to ask that question? (Also, remember, this is the third time he appeared to the disciples as a group.)

“it should be remembered that there was something about the appearance of the risen Jesus which was different enough to make immediate recognition difficult.”
http://bible.org/seriespage/exegetical-commentary-john-21

The question is, “what” was different about his appearance? Some say that because he was resurrected, he was glowing, or whatever. But, this was the third time they saw him, and heard him.

Here's the answer and here's what the Bible says:

JESUS WAS THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED TO SPIRIT LIFE.
Jesus was dead, and then he was resurrected, but not as a human (for he sacrificed his perfect human body.)

OTHERS WERE RESURRECTED BEFORE JESUS, SO WHEN JESUS IS REPEATEDLY SAID TO BE THE “FIRST” TO BE RESURRECTED, IT MUST MEAN THE FIRST IN SOME MANNER.
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD,”
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “ (Also see Rev 1:17,18)
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;

(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)

JESUS GAVE UP HIS PERFECT HUMAN LIFE, HIS SOUL, AS A RANSOM SACRIFICE.
(If you think Jesus was given that human life back, with his human body, then would this not be like taking the ransom back. He forfeited, gave up, surrendered his human life. It was a sacrifice.)
1 TIMOTHY 2:5,6
“…a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all….”
MATTHEW 20:28
“…the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
COLOSIANS 1:14
“…by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.”
TITUS 2:13,14
“…Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us…”
JOHN 10:17,18
“I surrender my soul…No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.”
1 JOHN 2:2:
“He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins…”

A RANSOM IS the price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back. It might be compared to the price paid for the release of a prisoner of war. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. It is similar to the price paid to cover the damages caused by an injury. For example, if a person causes an accident, he would have to pay an amount that fully corresponds to, or equals, the value of what was damaged.
ROMANS 5:12
“Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Yes, all of us have inherited sin from Adam. Hence, the Bible says that he “sold” himself and his offspring into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14)

JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)

Many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?

JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up
on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
Acts 10:40 (New American Standard Bible)
1 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)

Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?

1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)

Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1, 4; Lu 24:15, 16.

The Bible is very clear when it says:
“Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Caps added)

It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, WHY DID THEY NOT AT FIRST RECOGNIZE HIM? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16)
After Jesus’ resurrection MARY MISTOOK HIM for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15)
On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE ON THAT OCCASION FOR HIM TO SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THEIR MIDST EVEN THOUGH THE DOORS WERE LOCKED? (John 20:24-29) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)
Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity.
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course [yet/however], discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”
(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? The reason they knew it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.
Why is it that only after catching a multitude of fish one of the disciples figures it must be Jesus? And
that was the 3rd time he appeared to his disciples! (John 21:14)
Why did Jesus perform this miracle, of the fish?

Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; YET, THE RESURRECTED JESUS ALWAYS APPEARED FULLY CLOTHED.—John 20:6, 7.

Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.

WHERE DID HIS BODY GO?
The physical body of Jesus Christ was not allowed to decay into dust as did the bodies of Moses and David, men who were used to foreshadow Christ. (De 34:5, 6; Ac 13:35, 36; 2:27, 31) When his disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, his body doubtless having been disintegrated without passing through the process of decaying.—Joh 20:2-9; Lu 24:3-6.
Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.

But since the apostle THOMAS was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.
While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. And remember, at other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.

LUKE 24:31-35
“…and he disappeared from them. And they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?” And in that very hour they rose and returned to Jerusalem, and they found the eleven and those with them assembled together, saying: “For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!” Now they themselves related the [events] on the road and how he became known to them by the breaking of the loaf.”

[mikeboll64]

My two cents:

1.  Jesus appearing inside a locked building isn't too big of a deal for me, because we know that even as a human being, he walked on water and somehow transported himself to the other side of the sea.  (Philip too seemed to vanish into thin air and appear many miles away as a human being.)

2.  Is there a scripture that actually says the BODY of Jesus was the sacrifice?  I'm asking because I don't know for sure, but I don't remember reading a scripture such as that.  The ones I remember say that Jesus sacrificed his LIFE as atonement – not his BODY.  

(And considering that there is even ONE scripture that says Jesus sacrificed his LIFE, your “reneging on the ransom” point is moot, for we all know he got his LIFE back, right?)

3.  Jesus point blank told his disciples that he WASN'T a spirit.  (Luke 24:39)  Would Jesus be able to make this statement HONESTLY, if he was indeed a spirit being who was only masquerading as a flesh and bone being at the time?  I don't think so.

4.  I agree whole-heartedly that Jesus now exists as a spirit being in heaven, for flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.  My opinion is that Jesus was raised in the same body in which he died.  Then, upon his ascension through the clouds, his body was TRANSFORMED into the glorious, new body he has now at the right hand of his God.  (Phil 3:21)

5.  There is no scriptural support that any spirit being ever “materialized” a flesh and bone body.  (There IS, however, scriptural support that God can open a flesh being's eyes, and allow that flesh being to see the angel who was standing there all along.)

[Richtuner]

My 2 cents:
1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and BONES, as ye see me have

Eph_5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his BONES

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto his GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

[david]

Quote

2.  Is there a scripture that actually says the BODY of Jesus was the sacrifice?  I'm asking because I don't know for sure, but I don't remember reading a scripture such as that.  The ones I remember say that Jesus sacrificed his LIFE as atonement – not his BODY

Lets make this a first point to discuss.  He sacrificed his HUMAN life.  He didn't sacrifice his spirit life.   It was a “corresponding” ransom.   As you said, “we all know he got his LIFE back, right.”

Well, I'm saying he didn't get his human life back.  That is what he sacrificed.  That is what he gave up.  He did. Not give up his spirit life.   Maybe other bibles don't have the word “corresponding” in them.  I would check if I had more time right now.

If he was given his body and human life back, what exactly did he sacrifice?  Nothing.  He was killed, but nothing was given as a ransom sacrifice if that was the case.

If he gave it up, only to get it back, then in what sense did he really give it?  I'm sorry, want to discuss this more.  I expect that most of this discussion will revolve around the word “spirit.”  

Mike.  Is there any way this thread could be moved to the debate section with you and I being the only ones involved with the conversation.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2012,18:55)

Well, I'm saying he didn't get his human life back.  That is what he sacrificed.  That is what he gave up.  He did not give up his spirit life.

Now you sound like the Trinitarians, who explain how “God the Son” could have died by saying that Jesus didn't really die, die, but he only kind of died.  

David, if Jesus didn't die just like the rest of us die, then where is our hope in him that he is the first of many to be resurrected from the dead?

[mikeboll64]

Hi Rich,

I see the point you are making by distinguishing between BLOOD and BONE.  But forget both of those words, because Paul said FLESH cannot inherit God's Kingdom.

I find it unimaginable that flesh and BONE can, but flesh and BLOOD can't.  Besides, Jesus himself said that spirits don't have flesh and bone, right?  That would mean that Jesus is the ONLY flesh being in all of heaven.  Why would the Lord of lords be constrained by flesh, when those angels who are under him are not?  And how can he be the exact representation of his God, unless his God is also flesh?  Too many problems with that understanding, if you ask me.

(I had to do a double take when I saw your version of Ephesians 5:30.  I looked it up in NETNotes to find out what was going on with those words, and it seems that the general concensus is that the words “of his flesh, and of his bones” were added by a scribe, who was trying to make the verse match the LXX version of Genesis 2:25.  

You can read what I read here.  Just click on footnote #1 in the NET version of the scripture. While you're there, notice that, of the 8 versions listed, only the KJV has those extra words.)

[terraricca]

]]david

Quote

Lets make this a first point to discuss.  He sacrificed his HUMAN life.  He didn't sacrifice his spirit life.   It was a “corresponding” ransom.   As you said, “we all know he got his LIFE back, right.” Well, I'm saying he didn't get his human life back.  That is what he sacrificed

I will for now assume that you are right ;so one question arises from your comment ;if Jesus gives up his human live WHY DID HE WAS RESURRECTED IN HIS HUMAN STATE WE KNOW THAT HIS HUMAN STATE WAS GONE AFTER HE DISIPEAR IN THE CLOUDS RIGHT BUT FOR ABOUT 40 DAYS HE LIVED AS A HUMAN ,RIGHT could you elaborate on this

[mikeboll64]

That is the point David is trying to make, Pierre. He doesn't believe that Jesus lived in a human state for those 40 days. He believes like you and I used to – that Jesus was raised immediately from death as a spirit being.

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,12:23)

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2012,18:55) Well, I'm saying he didn't get his human life back.  That is what he sacrificed.  That is what he gave up.  He did not give up his spirit life. Now you sound like the Trinitarians, who explain how “God the Son” could have died by saying that Jesus didn't really die, die, but he only kind of died.   David, if Jesus didn't die just like the rest of us die, then where is our hope in him that he is the first of many to be resurrected from the dead?

No, that is exactly what I am saying: that he died like us. He was born as a human and lived as a human and he sacrificed his life….his human life.

He couldn't sacrifice something he didn't presently have…what he had was his human life.

If he was then handed back this human life 3 days later, it's then as if the ransom sacrifice was undone, or given back.

I'm saying every hit of Jesus human life was extinguished. He died died. He gave up the life he had, his human life. When he gave it up, there was no Jesus. He didn't exist at all.

But, when he was resurrected, he was not given back what he gave up.
How would that be a ransom?

[david]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2012,14:06)

]]david Quote Lets make this a first point to discuss.  He sacrificed his HUMAN life.  He didn't sacrifice his spirit life.   It was a “corresponding” ransom.   As you said, “we all know he got his LIFE back, right.” Well, I'm saying he didn't get his human life back.  That is what he sacrificed I will for now assume that you are right ;so one question arises from your comment ;if Jesus gives up his human live WHY DID HE WAS RESURRECTED IN HIS HUMAN STATE WE KNOW THAT HIS HUMAN STATE WAS GONE AFTER HE DISIPEAR IN THE CLOUDS RIGHT BUT FOR ABOUT 40 DAYS HE LIVED AS A HUMAN ,RIGHT could you elaborate on this

Hi terr

No, we don't really know that he lived for 40 days as a human. Where was he living? Where was he sleeping? All that is mentioned in the scriptures is of him appearing 3 times to his disciples. He wasn't hanging around with them. So, where was he?

And, the question that you say arises: why was he resurrected in a human state?
Well, if you read my post, you should know at I am suggesting that perhaps he was not resurrected in the flesh, but was raised as a spirit being. (See my very first post)

[david]

Quote

WE KNOW THAT HIS HUMAN STATE WAS GONE AFTER HE DISIPEAR IN THE CLOUDS RIGHT

How do we know this? It doesn't say that he changed from a human state as he was disappearing in the clouds.

Rather than thinking at at some unmentioned point in time between his being resurrected and his being taken into the air, he was transformed into a spirit, why not just look at the scriptures that speak of this?

[david]

….

1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)

[terraricca]

]David

If Christ live was the ransom then it could be understood that it was not his body that was important but the lost of his live,this is what Adam lost as well ,Jesus said the body means nothing,

And so he had his same body what was a reality sins he had to prove to his disciples that in truth he had been resurrected ,this is why he say at one point ::it his me do you not recognize me?::

[david]

Quote

2. Is there a scripture that actually says the BODY of Jesus was the sacrifice? I'm asking because I don't know for sure, but I don't remember reading a scripture such as that. The ones I remember say that Jesus sacrificed his LIFE as atonement – not his BODY.

–Mike.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention Mike. It's been a while since I have looked at this information.

YES! (If you don't remember reading a scripture such as that, perhaps you want to peruse my first post.

HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of THE BODY OF Jesus Christ once for all time.”

(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)

This one scripture in itself shows that it was the 'BODY' of Jesus Christ that was sacrificed!

And if that is what was sacrificed, as a ransom sacrifice, does it make sense that it would be given back?

[david]

Quote

Jesus said the body means nothing,

–Terr

If that's true, then I guess this means nothing:

HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of THE BODY OF Jesus Christ once for all time.”

Jesus apparently offered “nothing,” if the body is nothing.

You are clearly wrong.

[david]

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1. Jesus appearing inside a locked building isn't too big of a deal for me, because we know that even as a human being, he walked on water and somehow transported himself to the other side of the sea. (Philip too seemed to vanish into thin air and appear many miles away as a human being.)

Questions: What was Jesus doing during the time after he was resurrected? He certainly wasn't spending time with his disciples. He appeared to them a few times, with them not recognizing him. Jesus was NOT spending time with his disciples. So, where was he? Who was he staying with? Where did he sleep? What was he doing with his time? For me, these questions, or that lack of any answer that seems to make sense fits in with the idea of Jesus appearing inside of locked rooms. He appeared in the locked room. Where was he before that? What was he doing before that?

Does it not seem odd to anyone at all that Jesus, their best friend, their Lord, had died, and was resurrected, but they weren't clinging to him? They weren't following him? They weren't with him? They weren't absolutely sticking to him like glue??

If I was there and Jesus was resurrected, and was around and available, guess who I would be hanging out with 24 hours a day? Jesus! For some reason, this was not the case. He appeared to them. Then, he was gone. He appeared. Then gone. He appeared in a locked room.

Try to put yourself into the situation. If Jesus was just tortured to death, and resurrected, do you know what I would be thinking about all the time: Jesus! So, when a person calls out, if that person looked anything like Jesus, with Jesus on my mind, I would have saw Jesus. But, his very close disciples, his brothers, his closest of companions, did not recognize him, and were to afraid to ask: “who are you”?

Doesn't that hurt your head a little?

[david]

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2. Is there a scripture that actually says the BODY of Jesus was the sacrifice? I'm asking because I don't know for sure, but I don't remember reading a scripture such as that. The ones I remember say that Jesus sacrificed his LIFE as atonement – not his BODY. (And considering that there is even ONE scripture that says Jesus sacrificed his LIFE, your “reneging on the ransom” point is moot, for we all know he got his LIFE back, right?)

The second point in brackets: No, we don't all know that he got his “human” life back. Some of us believe that:

1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”

I checked other Bibles: The KJV for some reason says “by” the spirit, but virtually all others say “in the spirit.” Also, Mike, similar to the Heb 10:10 scripture that says he offered his “BODY,” this scripture is someone similar in saying he died “in the flesh.”

New International Version (©1984)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This is true because Christ suffered for our sins once. He was an innocent person, but he suffered for guilty people so that he could bring you to God. His body was put to death, but he was brought to life through his spirit.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

American King James Version
For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

American Standard Version
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,

Darby Bible Translation
for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit,

English Revised Version
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit;

Webster's Bible Translation
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

Weymouth New Testament
because Christ also once for all died for sins, the innocent One for the guilty many, in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,

World English Bible
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Young's Literal Translation
because also Christ once for sin did suffer — righteous for unrighteous — that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,10:42)

My two cents: 1.  Jesus appearing inside a locked building isn't too big of a deal for me, because we know that even as a human being, he walked on water and somehow transported himself to the other side of the sea.  (Philip too seemed to vanish into thin air and appear many miles away as a human being.) 2.  Is there a scripture that actually says the BODY of Jesus was the sacrifice?  I'm asking because I don't know for sure, but I don't remember reading a scripture such as that.  The ones I remember say that Jesus sacrificed his LIFE as atonement – not his BODY.   (And considering that there is even ONE scripture that says Jesus sacrificed his LIFE, your “reneging on the ransom” point is moot, for we all know he got his LIFE back, right?) 3.  Jesus point blank told his disciples that he WASN'T a spirit.  (Luke 24:39)  Would Jesus be able to make this statement HONESTLY, if he was indeed a spirit being who was only masquerading as a flesh and bone being at the time?  I don't think so. 4.  I agree whole-heartedly that Jesus now exists as a spirit being in heaven, for flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.  My opinion is that Jesus was raised in the same body in which he died.  Then, upon his ascension through the clouds, his body was TRANSFORMED into the glorious, new body he has now at the right hand of his God.  (Phil 3:21) 5.  There is no scriptural support that any spirit being ever “materialized” a flesh and bone body.  (There IS, however, scriptural support that God can open a flesh being's eyes, and allow that flesh being to see the angel who was standing there all along.)

I've covered point 2 pretty well. I've touched upon point 1, but would like to discuss it further. Point 4 is just you saying what you believe. For point 5, isn't there proof that in the Heb scripture, angels have taken on physical form?

Point 3 is the only point I consider to be an extremely valid and noteworthy argument against what I am suggesting. In fact, if not for that one scripture, I can't see how anyone would ever not believe what I am suggesting. So, let's look at point 3. Before I do that, I am just going to take a very long vacation.

[david]

I just thought about something for point 5 again:

“5.  There is no scriptural support that any spirit being ever “materialized” a flesh and bone body.  (There IS, however, scriptural support that God can open a flesh being's eyes, and allow that flesh being to see the angel who was standing there all along.)”

I know that the point you make here isn't about how the two men traveling on the road couldn't recognize Jesus or how Mary didn't recognize Jesus, or how his disciples didn't recognize him, but in past discussions, someone said that their eyes were prevented from seeing who he was, until God opened their metaphorical eyes (mind), and then they could see (perceive) that it was Jesus.

Except:

“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)

So here, they “knew” it was the Lord.  So, their minds were not being prevented from knowing it was Jesus.  They “knew it was the Lord.”  

So, the deeply troubling, disturbing question that will keep you up at night, and eats at your brain until you go mad: “Why would they ever have any need at all to ask of their Lord: “Who are you”?”

And if you say: 'His body was so beaten, they couldn't recognize him' I would say: “Well, that makes him pretty recognizable, and perhaps, even more recognizable from a distance.”

[david]

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3. Jesus point blank told his disciples that he WASN'T a spirit. (Luke 24:39) Would Jesus be able to make this statement HONESTLY, if he was indeed a spirit being who was only masquerading as a flesh and bone being at the time? I don't think so.

There is another possibility.

I'll just repeat what I said in the first post. Then, you tear it apart. Then, I will respond. (But, I would also like to discuss the posts above.)

Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)

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