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Seeking wrote:
Quote It appears to me everyone, including you, are finally on the same page – a completely mature faith will walk sinless at all times but none of us have that completely mature faith. Rather, our faith progressively carries us on Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
I am not sure we are in agreement since to obtain complete maturity one must believe that it is possible and that God will and can do it for you if you persevere. It is that lack of faith and the tenets that damage that faith that I often address.
Seeking wrote:
Quote Kerwin, it is the faith for which all the true servants in these postings have said we all sincerely strive.
May we all truly strive to achieve God’s righteousness and holiness.
Seeking wrote:
Quote But Kerwin, if we have already attained it all striving ceases.
Striving to obtain one's goal will cease but one must still strive to keep what one have obtained less one falls like Satan and his angels. Still you also must be careful less you think you made your goal before you have crossed the finish line. As Jesus said “watch and be dressed and ready for service”.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2009,13:36) Still you also must be careful less you think you made your goal before you have crossed the finish line. As Jesus said “watch and be dressed and ready for service”.
Kerwin,And when do we cross that finish line? It seems we must press on to perfection until then. Completed perfection does not seem to be possible until then.
Seeking
Hi S,
You say
“Again, I see us all on the same page, we join one another
in this hope striving to walk constantly in the Spirit led by the Spirit. But Kerwin, if we have already attained it all striving ceases.”Striving ceases when we yield to the Spirit.
Heb4
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Ps46
10Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.Unless God does the work through you then you are not led.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2009,14:18)
Nick responded,Hi S,
You say
“Again, I see us all on the same page, we join one another
in this hope striving to walk constantly in the Spirit led by the Spirit. But Kerwin, if we have already attained it all striving ceases.”Next Nick proposes,
Striving ceases when we yield to the Spirit.
After citing some passages that supposedly make his point,
Nick ads,Unless God does the work through you then you are not led.
That is obvious, but does it preclude striving, effort, etc?
Ended striving would have been a “strange teaching” to Paul as he wrote –
1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Nick, you use as a proof text for your theory
Heb.4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.Interestingly, labour there is actually rendered “strive” in some text –
Heb 4:11 ESV Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Here are some of Jesus' and Paul's teachings on striving –
Luk 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Rom 15:30 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Again, Burger King theology' have it your way!
Seeking
Hi KW,
You say
“I am not sure we are in agreement since to obtain complete maturity one must believe that it is possible and that God will and can do it for you if you persevere. It is that lack of faith and the tenets that damage that faith that I often address.”If we spend our live focussing on ourselves we will never be much use to God.
Our primary role is to serve him despite our faults.
There is stuff to doMatthew 24:44-46
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 14 2009,09:04) nick wrote:[/quote]
Nick responded,Hi S,
You say
“Again, I see us all on the same page, we join one another
in this hope striving to walk constantly in the Spirit led by the Spirit. But Kerwin, if we have already attained it all striving ceases.”Next Nick proposes,
Striving ceases when we yield to the Spirit.
After citing some passages that supposedly make his point,
Nick ads,Unless God does the work through you then you are not led.
That is obvious, but does it preclude striving, effort, etc?
Ended striving would have been a “strange teaching” to Paul as he wrote –
1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Nick, you use as a proof text for your theory
Heb.4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.Interestingly, labour there is actually rendered “strive” in some text –
Heb 4:11 ESV Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Here are some of Jesus' and Paul's teachings on striving –
Luk 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Rom 15:30 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Again, Burger King theology' have it your way!
Seeking
Hi S,
Entering the narrow door is entering Christ.Jn10
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.This must be the first priority of natural man.
Mt6
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Thence we take up the light burden of our appointed role in the body of the Lord Jesus
Mt11
28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
The power thence is that of the Spirit,
Zech4
6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.Ecclesiastes 1:17
And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind.Colossians 1:29
For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.nick wrote:[/quote]
Nick,Do you think your posting of passages with no explanation proves your point? Silly question on my part – of course you
do despite many comments to the contrary.The discussion is do we strive or not. I said yes you said no.
In your recent post you, again, contradict yourself with the
scriptures you use.You post – Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
I note – Naturally it is under the power of the Spirit that we have strength to strive.
You post – Ecclesiastes 1:17
And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind.I note – Obviously, if you search for wisdom by knowing madness and folly it is fruitless striving. I am discussing striving to walk in righteousness.
Then you post – Colossians 1:29
For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.Here, I ask – Are you applying this to yourself? If so you have come full circle from we don't strive because we are in God's rest to I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
I am in full agreement and thank you for establishing my original point – I (we) labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me (us).
Seeking
Hi S,
I quite agree that the zeal of the Lord of Hosts drives us in our work.
But we do have to let the wind of the Spirit, which waxes and wanes, do that.
Men who are constantly religious are usually not guided by the gentle wind of the spirit.Seeking wrote:
Quote And when do we cross that finish line? It seems we must press on to perfection until then. Completed perfection does not seem to be possible until then.
I cannot tell you that as it has been told to me. What I can tell you is that it can be done and will be done for those who truly believe Jesus is the Messiah and so make him Lord of their lives. For some it will be sooner and for others it will be later but we each must strive to reach that goal having confidence that God will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Even when we reach the goal we must beware less we fall.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2009,16:37) Hi S,
I quite agree that the zeal of the Lord of Hosts drives us in our work.
But we do have to let the wind of the Spirit, which waxes and wanes, do that.
Men who are constantly religious are usually not guided by the gentle wind of the spirit.
Nick,Finally! I was discussing what we, the Spirit led do and that we strive or are driven by the Lord of Hosts in us.
I strive not to decide in my mind who is simply “religious”
especially when I do not know their fruit by observaton.Seeking
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2009,10:43) Seeking wrote: Quote And when do we cross that finish line? It seems we must press on to perfection until then. Completed perfection does not seem to be possible until then.
I cannot tell you that as it has been told to me. What I can tell you is that it can be done and will be done for those who truly believe Jesus is the Messiah and so make him Lord of their lives. For some it will be sooner and for others it will be later but we each must strive to reach that goal having confidence that God will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Even when we reach the goal we must beware less we fall.
Hi KW,
Not our work but God's and all we have to do is confess.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote If we spend our live focusing on ourselves we will never be much use to God.
Our primary role is to serve him despite our faults.
There is stuff to doHow can you obtain the promised righteousness from God if you not do what God commands?
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote This speaks of men watching for the return of their Master, not watching themselves.
That interpretation is not consistent with God’s nature as even demons watch for Jesus’ return as they are feared with dread. Consider this, does God want you dressed in the Spirit and ready and waiting to serve every command of our Lord Jesus or does He want you to do as the demons do? I am sure you watch yourself to make sure you are dressed before going out into the world so why would you want to be naked of the Spirit before God.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote You admit we sin in unknown ways so to what benefit is there is studying ourselves looking for them?
They are unknown to us but not to God and he is able to cleanse us of all unrighteousness even those unknown sins. We may not know them but we certainly can ask Him to reveal them to us if He deems it necessary and to cleanse us of them no matter what.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote We are incapable of sanctifying ourselves as we are not innately holy.
The Holy Spirit does this work.We do not sanctify ourselves but we do what God places in front of us to do. It is God who changes us so that we do not do what we ought not to do. In other cases we should test our actions for sin and if we find any we need to ask Him to change us and then take every opportunity He gives us to change by living by the Spirit and so resisting temptation. If we are persistent then He will change us when He determines the time is right.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Not our work but God's and all we have to do is confess.
It is but by the grace of God that we strive but if we are not striving then we lack faith because God is faithful and does as He promises.
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