Jesus in the Old Testament

[Morning Star]

I encourage you all to listen to these mp3s on Jesus in the Old Testament if you get a chance.

http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Morning Star @ April 14 2007,02:18)

I encourage you all to listen to these mp3s on Jesus in the Old Testament if you get a chance. http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

MS

Thanks! I will listen.

Blessings!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Morning Star @ April 14 2007,02:18)

I encourage you all to listen to these mp3s on Jesus in the Old Testament if you get a chance. http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

MS

Thanks again.

Some very excellent points!

Blessings!

[kenrch]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,10:41)

Quote (Morning Star @ April 14 2007,02:18) I encourage you all to listen to these mp3s on Jesus in the Old Testament if you get a chance. http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm MS Thanks again. Some very excellent points! Blessings!

Question how was Jesus in the Old testament when He was Born yet? Mary wasn't born yet?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kenrch @ April 14 2007,11:17)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,10:41) Quote (Morning Star @ April 14 2007,02:18) I encourage you all to listen to these mp3s on Jesus in the Old Testament if you get a chance. http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm MS Thanks again. Some very excellent points! Blessings!   Question how was Jesus in the Old testament when He was Born yet?  Mary wasn't born yet?

K

You dont believe he was the Word that was with God and was God?

[kenrch]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,13:04)

Quote (kenrch @ April 14 2007,11:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,10:41) Quote (Morning Star @ April 14 2007,02:18) I encourage you all to listen to these mp3s on Jesus in the Old Testament if you get a chance. http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm MS Thanks again. Some very excellent points! Blessings!   Question how was Jesus in the Old testament when He was Born yet?  Mary wasn't born yet? K You dont believe he was the Word that was with God and was God?

I don't believe the Word was Jesus in the Old Testament. Do you?

[epistemaniac]

oh yes I do in fact believe that Jesus was spoken of in the OT…. what about all the Messianic prophecies… foremost, what about the identification of God from Isaiah chapter 6 as actually Isaiah seeing Jesus…?

(Isaiah 6:1-3) In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord (“the Lord of all” (All-herrn, sovereign or absolute Lord—Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament) sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”

while John says John 12:41 (NASB77) These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.”

Jesus in the OT….? You bet…

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

ps… Jesus is here called “Lord of Hosts”…

“LORD OF HOSTS
A name or title of God frequently used in the Old Testament, always translated “Yahweh of Hosts” (‏יְהוָֹה צְבַאוֹת‎, Yehōwāh çebhāʾōth) in the American Standard Revised Version, since Yehweh, never ʾǍdhōnāy, is used in this phrase. Evidently the meaning of the title is that all created agencies and forces are under the leadership or dominion of Yahweh, who made and maintains them (Genesis 2:1; Isaiah 45:12). It is used to express Yahweh's great power.
—International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

consider:

Jesus is sovereign and absolute Lord of all
but this is true only of God

Jesus is called “Lord of Hosts”
but this is true only of God

conclusion: Jesus must be God or the Bible flatly contradicts itself; therefore the Trinity is the only way to reconcile what would otherwise be irreconcilable contradictions..

blessings,
Ken

[NickHassan]

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 17 2007,06:23)

oh yes I do in fact believe that Jesus was spoken of in the OT…. what about all the Messianic prophecies… foremost, what about the identification of God from Isaiah chapter 6 as actually Isaiah seeing Jesus…? (Isaiah 6:1-3)  In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord (“the Lord of all” (All-herrn, sovereign or absolute Lord—Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament) sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” while John says John 12:41 (NASB77) These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.” Jesus in the OT….? You bet… blessings, Ken

Hi E,
The Lord God was indeed seen in vision by John in the heavenly realm but it was not His Son. Jesus is not a separate divine deity with his own throne and his own seraphim around him.

Even if the false rendering of the NIV was fact it would add no support to your theory that there are three persons in one God as we only have two and they would not be one God but two Gods.

[Bibliophile]

Heh Ken,

Why isn'y the holy spirit ever called Lord of Host? Also, where inscripture is Jesus called sovereign?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Bibliophile @ July 24 2007,21:57)

Also, where inscripture is Jesus called sovereign?

1 Tim 6:15.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18
1tim 6
” 13I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. “

So is Jesus the ONLY one who has immortality?
Is he the one no man can approach?
Has no man seen Christ?
Is he invisible?

No HE is the Father God.

[Bibliophile]

Hi Is,

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. The context is discussing God (YHWH). Although I am able to see where there might be confusion here. A lot of Translations indicate Christ as Potentate. Notice the following.

14that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the (AJ)appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which He will bring about at (AK)the proper time–He who is (AL)the blessed and (AM)only Sovereign, (AN)the King of kings and (AO)Lord of lords, 16(AP)who alone possesses immortality and (AQ)dwells in unapproachable light, (AR)whom no man has seen or can see (AS)To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (NASB)

14to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until(AF) the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display(AG) at the proper time—he who is(AH) the blessed and only Sovereign,(AI) the King of kings and Lord of lords, (ESB)

Now notice the renderings of others.

13 In the presence of God, who gives life to all, (Q) and before Christ Jesus, who gave a good confession before Pontius Pilate, Â I charge you 14 to keep the commandment without spot or blame until the appearing (S) of our Lord (T) Jesus Christ, 15 which God [f] will bring about in His own time. (U) [He is]the blessed and only (V) Sovereign,the King of kings, (W)and the Lord of lords, (HCSB)

14Do what you have been told to do. And do it so there will be nothing wrong, until our Lord Jesus Christ comes. 15At the right time God will bring Christ back. Praise God! He alone is ruler. He is King over all kings, and Lord over all lords. (WENT)

See the difference Is 1:18?

[Artizan007]

Hi Is 1:18

Quote: In the passage from 1 Tim 6

Jesus himself said “No one has ever seen God (the Father) but Jesus has made him known… is that not enough or do you need to go outside the Biblical text to clarify what is spoken of Jesus “the Christ” by John – if it was actually John that wrote this book… many people saw “the Christ”, God's anointed one, whilst he traversed the Judean and Galilean countryside as an Itinerant preacher teaching the Kingdom message he learned from God – so this verse you have mentioned can in no way be speaking of him (Jesus) but of his and our Father… It is God and not Jesus that is noted here as being the one who gives life to all, Jesus in this passage is noted for having a good confession/testimony before Pilate. I think the one who “has” immortality is God, the Father – Jesus is the one who has been given immortality, the Father did this when he was raised as the first fruits stated in 1 Cor 15. How can God be raised as the first fruits… if as you say – He is immortal, immortality implies you exist before and after time – ageless existence and that you cannot die.

[Bibliophile]

Heh Is 1:18,

After alot of research and studying today on 1Timothy 6:15, you may be right. I may have to retract my first post….maybe.

I am still in the process of collecting scriptural eveidence so I will get back on this later.

[Artizan007]

Is the Hebrew word “HaMashiach” actually in the old testament… all i can see is that it is alluded to by reading into the text, but never spoken of as THE Messiah, only “a” messiah?

[Artizan007]

Was Jesus ever anointed with OIL by a prophet or priest (ie, Samuel and Saul/David)? A Messiah would be anointed with oil by a prophet/priest. If Jesus is the one to fulfill all scripture as God's anointed surely he must have to have been anointed by a priest or prophet.

[Artizan007]

Does the Jewish Bible – by that I mean the OT, of which this post is about – show that humanity has to believe in the Messiah. I can't find any – because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith because it will be before their eyes.

[Artizan007]

The claim in the NT that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give Jesus any credibility for his “first” coming for nowhere in the OT does it speak of a second coming.

The OT never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a seeming desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure for he did not fulfill the prophecies of the messiah. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (see below) don’t speak of someone returning, they have a “first coming” perspective and should be read in this light.

See: Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5. Do any of these speak of a return of the messiah or the day of the messiah which God would raise up?

[Artizan007]

Tell me – in light of scriptures, do you think it reasonable to say that the Jews had every right to act in the way that they did…Christian's say they were hard of heart… and the writers of the NT say so too, but God prophesied through the prophets how The Messiah would come and in what manner he would rule and the condition of the world at the time.

Is it not a little harsh to con the Jews through their prophetic writings by saying that when the Messiah comes all these things were to happen (see post above), but not “clearly” tell them that first he would come and be rejected by a few in Jerusalem, be condemned as a criminal, and die on a cross for their sins… He did not come the whole world, nor make himself know to the world so they had a chance to accept or reject him; in fact Jesus did not appear to many outside – Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, Galilee and a few other rinky dinky little towns in that area – travelling maybe no more than 150 miles outside his home town. He did not go to Rome – the seat of the then known world power, he did not meet with the rulers or other people groups and religions… to me it is crazy that he only went to a little country called Israel and because of a few powerful ruling people – we say he died for all humanities sin.

Ezekiel states that each of us is responsible for our own sin – so why does Jesus a man/God-man have to die in my place? Surely he was not condemned by all people; in fact he was loved by many… to say that our Sin put him there or that God crucified his son as a sin sacrifice for our sin is to go against everything that God had taught from the beginning. He taught them not to murder or to shed human blood (Gen 9:6) – how then can God go against His very word and do the very deed he told us not to do. Would this not be a case of do as I say but not as I do… God cannot do that and be just. How can He expect us to follow His word if He goes and does the very thing he says not to do… On that God himself describes as a detestable practice among the heathens… that is: human sacrifice.

Also, only the high priest could enter the most holy place to sacrifice on the day of atonement to sins to be forgiven – yet Jesus the “pascal lamb” as stated by Paul was handed over by the Jewish Priests because of the claims that he was the King of Israel, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and he killed by Romans not on Yom Kippur but over the Passover. How does this fulfill all Scripture. He was not offered up in the temple, on the altar as prescribed in the OT for an offering, nor was His death on the day of Atonement… the day when the High Priest was to go into the most Holy Place to offer sacrifice for the sin of the nation – (this, the writer of Hebrews tries to imply) – except he is his own sacrifice and high priest at the same time.

The Passover was not a day where God pardoned or forgave the sin of a people far off or outside of relationship to Him, but a day when He showed His “already chosen people” how much he loved them by destroying those who had held them captive.

Sorry these pictures do not match… in symbolism or in type.

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