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Adam……I also believe God was talking about king Cyrus, in Isa 46:11, to deliver Israel from the Babylonians .
But the fact remains that God also delivered us from eternal death, by offering up of his human Lamb, Jesus Christ, our lord right?
Adam……You made reference about the variance of Psalms 8:3 and the book of Hebrews 2: 6–9, as saying different things . Could you please explain to me again that variance you see between the books, how they contradict each other?
I am glad you are hear again Adam, and I really don’t think you and Jodi are that much apart .
peace and love to you and yours………gene
Hello brother Gene,
You: Adam……I also believe God was talking about king Cyrus, in Isa 46:11, to deliver Israel from the Babylonians .
But the fact remains that God also delivered us from eternal death, by offering up of his human Lamb, Jesus Christ, our lord right?
Me: Thanks for your agrement on Isaiah 46:11. As per your question on Jesus delivering us from eternal death is again a Christian version which is based on the New Testament.
You: Adam……You made reference about the variance of Psalms 8:3 and the book of Hebrews 2: 6–9, as saying different things . Could you please explain to me again that variance you see between the books, how they contradict each other?
Me: Regarding variance of Ps 8:3 and Heb 2:6-9, we can discuss the same on its thread/topic.
Yes you are write about Jodi on preexistence. But I just wanted to high light the difficulty behind the interpretation of verses support that support Jesus’ preexistence in the NT.
Thank you and love to you…..Adam
Adam…..I don’t believe it was Jesus who delivered us, Believe it was God he Father himself who delivered us. By sacrificing his human Lamb, Jesus Christ.
Let explain why, Scripture says there is no forgiveness of sin , without the shedding of blood right?, that even applied to ancient Israel, so what does that all mean , in regards to God. Well to understand that, we must remember what did that sacrifice of the lambs mean. For one thing it meant the man who sacrificed was saying he was responsible for his sins, and was taking full responsible for it.
Think about this Adam, what was God saying about his responsibility for sin of all of mankind and the whole word, was he not saying he himself was the one responsible, for sin in the first place, could he have not prevented in the first place? He most certainly could have if he wanted to. But you see he put that propensity in mankind in the first place, so he takes responsibility for all sin by him offering up his own lamb Jesus Christ , and by doing so, he can forgives us all, through “His” atoning sacrifice, the flesh and blood man Jesus Christ, as his sacrificial Lamb.
for every one. God himself paid for and took all sin responsibility to himself. Just as the men of Israel did in the past did who offered up and took responsibility for sin they allowed in their lives, God the father took responsibility foe the sins of the world.So do I believe Jesus is the one who delivered us, no I don’t, I believe it was God the Father, who delivered us through the blood of “his” offering Jesus Christ.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene
Hi Gadam,
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
2 Peter 2:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Jesus was foreordained from the foundation of the world to execute YHVH’s will and bring forth righteousness and salvation, which is what we read below in Isaiah 46.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Gadam, did the end come through Cyrus? Does not Jesus deliver eternal righteousness and salvation in the END, which is when there is a New Beginning and a New heaven and earth? YHVH is declaring the END, the things not yet done saying His council shall stand, but then in the next verse he is not speaking of the man who will execute His council in bringing forth that end?
Even if you do not believe that the prophecy of Isaiah 46 includes our savior Jesus, YHVH’s words of having declared the End from the beginning still stands. Our omniscience and omnipotent God and Father YHVH didn’t declare the End without the knowledge that Jesus Christ would bring it forth with righteousness and salvation, unto a New beginning with a New heaven and earth.
We are told that Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, thus Before Abram was, Jesus was declared Abraham’s light. God revealed that light to Abraham giving him prophecy of his seed and he rejoiced and was glad. “I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
YHVH’s plan from the beginning was for Jesus to come and be for a light where he would speak the words of salvation and bring forth salvation. Before Abraham was, Moses saw the light, and before Moses was, that light was in the beginning with YHVH later to be manifested.
Without the man Jesus Christ the world is DEAD and thus YHVH would have had no point in our creation at all in the first place. All things were made by reason of him and for him. “Him” is the Son of Man who was exalted to sit at YHVH’s right hand until the day of YHVH when this Son of Man returns in our Father’s glory to bring forth the End, a New beginning. All things were made for him as he is the firstborn of many brethren, raised from death into life made into a New Man appointed as head overall.
The passage below was laid out before the world began and why John speaks saying that nothing would have been made that was made without him.
Romans 8:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
TO ALL
John
John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.His eyes(OF Jesus) were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME IS CALLED “THE WORD OF GOD”.Hi Jodi,
You: Jesus was foreordained from the foundation of the world to execute YHVH’s will and bring forth righteousness and salvation, which is what we read below in Isaiah 46.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Me: Here the context of Isaiah is important. It talks about Jewish exiles as I have already mentioned in my earlier reply. The ‘salvation’ the writer was talking about was the immediate redemption of Jewish exiles. I don’t see anything about Jesus’ foreordination as claimed by you. Verse 11 clearly was about the Persian king Cyrus whom God used for redemption of Jewish people who were in the Babylonian exile.
You: We are told that Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, thus Before Abram was, Jesus was declared Abraham’s light. God revealed that light to Abraham giving him prophecy of his seed and he rejoiced and was glad. “I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
YHVH’s plan from the beginning was for Jesus to come and be for a light where he would speak the words of salvation and bring forth salvation. Before Abraham was, Moses saw the light, and before Moses was, that light was in the beginning with YHVH later to be manifested.
Me: This is purely Christian interpretation. You have not shown me verses from Hebrew Bible on the foreordination of Jesus before the foundations of the world. I have not come across any Hebrew scriptures on how Abraham foresaw Jesus as his light as quoted by you.
You: The passage below was laid out before the world began and why John speaks saying that nothing would have been made that was made without him.
Romans 8:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Me: This above is the Christology and vicarious atonement as claimed by Paul and other NT writers which is being debated by me under ‘The myth of original sin and vicarious atonement” Please go through it for more details.
Hello Jodi, I am sorry I may be troubling you. In fact I have gone through the whole doctrines of Biblical Unitarianism for years together but I could not be convinced by their logics on interpreting the NT verses especially Col 1:15-17, John 8:58, Rev 3;14 and many more. I have done lot of research on the pre-existence and Jesus’ role in God’s creation and I always got frustration as the NT Christology is diversity and not unity. I have debated on number of occasions against pre-existence of Jesus on Heaven net stating that he was foreordained by God and not pre-existing with God. You can find my posts under user name ‘Gollamudi’ on the topic ‘Preexistence’ started by Mandy under believers section. But I now understand that the NT writers clearly assigned a leading role to man Jesus in the context of God’s creation and salvation process. They always included Jesus along with God in their salutations and doxology which I find not supported in Hebrew Bible.
Therefore I now turn to the original source of NT writers that is Hebrew scriptures to critically examine the truth behind this change of religion of Jewish people to religion about Jesus. I hope you will understand my search for truth.
Peace to you……Adam
To the Unbelievers
Seriously guys, there are a number of you that do not believe the New Testament, you know who you are. Why not just abandon it and be counted with the Unbelievers? After all, you do not believe what is written. Sounds fair right?
If you do not believe the following, then you are NOT a Believer. Simple as that. Let’s be real. You can choose to not believe any more. I won’t condemn you. People abandon their faith all the time and people come into faith in God and Jesus Christ all the time too. Not all end up where they started. And you do not need to make a song and dance about it. It’s your life.
Here are some scriptures you do not believe. Hence why you are an Unbeliever.
John 1:1-3 & 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made….The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.Colossians 1: 15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Hi Adam,
You are not troubling me, I find this rather fascinating! I don’t recall, after being part of this forum for over a decade, ever debating with someone who has the same interpretations to certain NT passages that pre-existers do, but yet hold a different position all together from them.
Thanks for your reply, however it doesn’t seem like you are really acknowledging my point. There is not a single scripture in the NT that I find teaches that Jesus pre-existed. I have aligned the NT with the OT to give what I believe is the proper interpretation to certain passages in the NT that people say teach pre-existence. The NT as I see it is an extension of YHVH’s word, everything declared in the NT doesn’t have to be found in the OT, it just cannot contradict the OT. Just like everything that Isaiah wrote doesn’t need to be found in what David wrote, it just can’t contradict it and so on and so forth. Therefore, just because you didn’t read in the OT that Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Jesus, doesn’t mean he didn’t.
When it comes to Romans 5:18 (I accidentally said chapter 8 before), I again see you align yourself with false interpretations just like the majority of Christians do, but whereas they believe it’s truth you believe it makes the NT full of error.
Hi Proclaimer,
YOU:
John 1:1-3 & 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made….The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.Colossians 1: 15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.ME: Great scriptures, I believe in every one of them!
Hi Jodi thanks again for your quick reply to my post.
You: You are not troubling me, I find this rather fascinating! I don’t recall, after being part of this forum for over a decade, ever debating with someone who has the same interpretations to certain NT passages that pre-existers do, but yet hold a different position all together from them.
Me: I know it’s quite fascinating at the same time frustrating too. You can check the “preexistence” thread in the believers’ section for my posts under user name “gollamudi123” may be around 2010-11 for recalling. I am here to debate on the validity of NT when compared to its original source, the Hebrew Bible. So you can call me anything.
You: Thanks for your reply, however it doesn’t seem like you are really acknowledging my point. There is not a single scripture in the NT that I find teaches that Jesus pre-existed. I have aligned the NT with the OT to give what I believe is the proper interpretation to certain passages in the NT that people say teach pre-existence. The NT as I see it is an extension of YHVH’s word, everything declared in the NT doesn’t have to be found in the OT, it just cannot contradict the OT. Just like everything that Isaiah wrote doesn’t need to be found in what David wrote, it just can’t contradict it and so on and so forth. Therefore, just because you didn’t read in the OT that Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Jesus, doesn’t mean he didn’t.
Me: Yes I may not be in alignment with you as I am on different platform. You say “There is not a single scripture in the NT that I find teaches that Jesus pre-existed” I say it is your outlook. You also say ” I have aligned the NT with the OT to give what I believe is the proper interpretation to certain passages in the NT that people say teach pre-existence” Everyone of us here claim the same whether he is Trinitarian, Binitarian or Unitarian. But I am critically evaluating the interpretation of Hebrew scriptures by the NT writers. So I find lot of discrepancies in NT when compared to Hebrew Bible. If you are interested you can see my new thread “Christian writers misquoting Texts – what Hebrew Bible really say?” under Skeptics section. You also quoted “Just like everything that Isaiah wrote doesn’t need to be found in what David wrote, it just can’t contradict it and so on and so forth. Therefore, just because you didn’t read in the OT that Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Jesus, doesn’t mean he didn’t” I say it is very much required when we are evaluating the validity of certain writings and we are not believing something to evaluate.
You: When it comes to Romans 5:18 (I accidentally said chapter 8 before), I again see you align yourself with false interpretations just like the majority of Christians do, but whereas they believe it’s truth you believe it makes the NT full of error.
Me: Again you use strong words like “false” No one is perfect here and all are only learners. Rom 5:18 is Paul’s Christology as I quoted earlier which is being debated on another thread “Myth of original sin and Vicarious atonement” I don’t think I have aligned with anyone here.
It was a nice chat with you……Adam
ME: Great scriptures, I believe in every one of them!
Bull dust. What a load of croc Jodi. You clearly teach the exact opposite. I have added in words (IN CAPS) that make these verses say what you have been teaching here for 10 years.
He WASN’T with God in the beginning. Through him NOTHING was made.
The Word became flesh and made IT’S dwelling among us. BUT THIS IS NOT JESUS DESPITE SOME TESTIFYING ABOUT his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. BUIT HE IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD DESPITE THE NAME.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he DIDN’T make the universe.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, NOT THE LITERAL firstborn over all creation DESPITE SOMEONE HAVING TO BE FIRST, (WONDER WHO THAT BLESSED PERSON IS?). For in him NOTHING WAS created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things WERE NOT created through him and for him. He is NOT LITERALLY before all things, and in him all things DO NOT hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is NOT the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in SOME THINGS he might have the supremacy.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom NOTHING came and through whom we live.
That is right isn’t it Jodi? Time to revaluate whether you are a Believer because you appear to not believe the scriptures that testify about the true Jesus. You preach another Jesus. It’s as clear as day.
A question. Not saying this is correct. But the questions do come to mind.
Is gadam a wolf?
Is Jodi a wolf in sheep’s clothing?
Personally speaking, I prefer wolves than wolves in sheep’s clothing. Only because they are more honest and clear about what they are.
Does anyone besides these two have an opinion on this?
I haven’t read much from gadam, but it seems that he thinks the Church is false because it is based on the New Testament. Is he Moslem?
While Jodi claims to be part of the Church, but teaches the opposite about Jesus in many important things. She only acknowledges the fact that Jesus was human and the messiah which is good. But denies many other things. That said, even Islam agrees with her said beliefs about Jesus.
Hi Proclaimer,
You: A question. Not saying this is correct. But the questions do come to mind.
Is gadam a wolf?
Me: Ha ha great question it is….thanks for naming me ‘Wolf’. But please remember we are not here preaching the Gospel on this thread or questioning one’s personal beliefs. We are only debating on the doctrines which are ambiguous in nature in our religion.
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