Jesus did not pre-exist

[bodhitharta]

After much study of the scriptures and the Jewish culture it has become clear that Jesus could not have pre-existed except in the hidden knowledge of God

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-9

Was Jesus crucified before the world was created? If Jesus could be said to have been slain from before the creation of the earth then obviously the Glory given to such would be equivalent as forethought and not in a pre-existent context

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
An unfortunate choice of KJV for Rev 13.7
compare Rev17.8 and you will see all the other versions give the true meaning.

NASB.
..all whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who has been slain..

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,08:29)

Hi BD, An unfortunate choice of KJV for Rev 13.7 compare Rev17.8  and you will see all the other versions give the true meaning. NASB. ..all whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who has been slain..

Revelation 13 (Young's Literal Translation)

8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

[bodhitharta]

Unprejudiced readers will see (as acknowledged by a host of
biblical experts) that the Jesus of Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts and Peter
is a human being originating at his birth as do all other human persons.
He has not preexisted.
It is a serious imposition on the Gospel of John to understand him to
teach a different sort of Jesus than Matthew, Mark and Luke — one who
is really an angel or God appearing as a man. Such a non-human Messiah
is foreign not only to the rest of the New Testament, but to the whole
revelation of God in the Old Testament in regard to His definition of the
coming Messiah. Deuteronomy 18 expressly says that the Messiah is to
arise from a family in Israel. All Jews who looked forward to the Messiah
expected a human person, not an angel, much less God Himself! Though
the Jews had not understood that the Messiah was to be born supernaturally,
even this miraculous begetting was in fact predicted.21 A “prehuman”
Messiah, however, is nowhere suggested.
According to Isaiah 44:24 God was unaccompanied at the original
creation. Jesus in the Gospels attributes the creation to the Father22 and
has no memory of being the agent in the Genesis creation.

“God speaks of things which do not exist as though they did.”23 It is a
mistake to confuse “existence” in the Plan of God with actual preexistence,
thus producing a non-fully human Jesus. The Christ of biblical
expectation is a human person. Therein lies the supreme glory of his
achievement for us.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
The YLT is drawn from the same manuscripts as the KJV.
Have you compared Rev17?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,08:45)

Hi BD, The YLT is drawn from the same manuscripts as the KJV. Have you compared Rev17?

So you do believe that Jesus pre-existed Nick?

If so what was he?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
So Rev 13 offers no support to your ideas?

[georg]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,08:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,08:45) Hi BD, The YLT is drawn from the same manuscripts as the KJV. Have you compared Rev17? So you do believe that Jesus pre-existed Nick? If so what was he?

I believe that Jesus preexisted and I have proven so by Scriptures.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that is on earth, visible and invisible………
verse 17  
And He is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Rev, 3:14
… ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.

By Jesus own word He said this in
John 17:5
“And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

John 1:1 you know that verse right, everybody know that one.
You ask Nick what He was.  I will answer that.  He was a Spirit Being.  Like His Father only He did not have deity, which mean He could die, like the Angels.    He was the only begotten Son of God.  He came directly from the Father.
Peace and Love Irene

[kerwin]

Irene wrote:

Quote

I believe that Jesus preexisted and I have proven so by Scriptures.

I suggest you consider thinking more like a monotheistic Jew and less like a polytheistic Greek when interpreting Paul’s writings.

Scripture quoted by Irene:

Quote

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. verse 16

For instance “over” is not a synonym of  the word “of”.

Scripture quoted by Irene:

Quote

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that is on earth, visible and invisible……… verse 17   And He is before all things, and in him all things consist.

This passage gives you more support but your chose interpretation contradicts scripture that states Adam came first.

Romans 5L14(NIV) reads:

Quote

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

So it is evident that you disagree with Paul who taught that Adam cam first.

I could address the rest but I believe that one contradiction is enough for you to find a way to address at the present.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 07 2009,09:45)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,08:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,08:45) Hi BD, The YLT is drawn from the same manuscripts as the KJV. Have you compared Rev17? So you do believe that Jesus pre-existed Nick? If so what was he? I believe that Jesus preexisted and I have proven so by Scriptures. Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that is on earth, visible and invisible……… verse 17   And He is before all things, and in him all things consist. Rev, 3:14 … ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God. By Jesus own word He said this in John 17:5 “And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” John 1:1 you know that verse right, everybody know that one. You ask Nick what He was.  I will answer that.  He was a Spirit Being.  Like His Father only He did not have deity, which mean He could die, like the Angels.    He was the only begotten Son of God.  He came directly from the Father. Peace and Love Irene

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:23-25

Now simply compare that to this:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Peter 1:19-21

Notice it says foreordained and not existing.

then it says in the very next verse:

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Notice it does not say returned his glory.

Ephesians 1:3-5 (King James Version)

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

It says we were chosen in him before the world was created but we didn't pre-exist did we?

and is this true or not?

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 44:23-25

Isaiah 49
1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isaiah 49:4-6

Did God not form Jesus from the womb as scripture says and as Gabriel told Mary

[bodhitharta]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2009,11:44)

Irene wrote: Quote I believe that Jesus preexisted and I have proven so by Scriptures. I suggest you consider thinking more like a monotheistic Jew and less like a polytheistic Greek when interpreting Paul’s writings. Scripture quoted by Irene: Quote Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. verse 16 For instance “over” is not a synonym of  the word “of”. Scripture quoted by Irene: Quote For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that is on earth, visible and invisible……… verse 17   And He is before all things, and in him all things consist. This passage gives you more support but your chose interpretation contradicts scripture that states Adam came first. Romans 5L14(NIV) reads: Quote Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. So it is evident that you disagree with Paul who taught that Adam cam first. I could address the rest but I believe that one contradiction is enough for you to find a way to address at the present.

Great post! And yes that was a good point “over” creation

[georg]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2009,11:44)

Irene wrote: Quote I believe that Jesus preexisted and I have proven so by Scriptures. I suggest you consider thinking more like a monotheistic Jew and less like a polytheistic Greek when interpreting Paul’s writings. Scripture quoted by Irene: Quote Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. verse 16 For instance “over” is not a synonym of  the word “of”. Scripture quoted by Irene: Quote For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that is on earth, visible and invisible……… verse 17   And He is before all things, and in him all things consist. This passage gives you more support but your chose interpretation contradicts scripture that states Adam came first. Romans 5L14(NIV) reads: Quote Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. So it is evident that you disagree with Paul who taught that Adam cam first. I could address the rest but I believe that one contradiction is enough for you to find a way to address at the present.

My Husband looked up Col. 1:15 in His Rye Study Bible and it says
Col 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OFOFOFOF ALL CREATION.”  Not over.  I don't know why the KJ did.  But in Rev. it did not , it said of

Rev. 3:14 ..”These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF OFOF THE CREATION OF GOD.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and was God.

Also Hebrew 1:8 God calls Jesus God.  Read it yourself.

And are you going to call Jesus a name and a liar?  Because in John 17:5 He said this.
” And now, O Father, glory Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with you before the World was.”
 And then He went back to Heaven with His Father where He had been before.

Also I am not interpeting the Scriptures.  I write them down the way they say.  That my Fried is not interpeting to me.

Labing people has never set to good with me.  And that should never be done as a Christian.  Even if I would interpet, which I did not.
But I guess from certain people you cant expect anything else.
As far as Adam being first, yes He was a Human man first, before Jesus became a Human.  Adam never preexcited did He?

Also God so loved the World that He send His only begotten Son into the world that throuigh Him we might be saveth.
Where did God send His Son from?

One more thing, I did find the preexisting tread that was done before, it is in Truth or Tradition-Preexisting. t8 has a post there and others too, over 500posts. Some agree andothers do not.

Wer hat dier uber die leber gelaufen.  Ein mensh der nichts anderes weiss muss so was machen.
Guten Abend, Irene

[kerwin]

Irene wrote:

Quote

My Husband looked up Col. 1:15 in His Rye Study Bible and it says Col 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OFOFOFOF ALL CREATION.”  Not over.  I don't know why the KJ did.

Interesting! It is certainly possible that scripture can be translated in more than one way but that brings up the question “why did the translators choose the way they translated it?”

Irene wrote:

Quote

Also I am not interpreting the Scriptures.  I write them down the way they say.  That my Fried is not interpreting to me. Labeling people has never set to good with me.  And that should never be done as a Christian.  Even if I would interpret, which I did not.

I do not see why you are taking offense as the word “interpret” is not derogatory.  It simply means to “explain or tell the meaning of”; though I believe your biases and experiences do play a part just like they do with the translators.

Irene wrote:

Quote

As far as Adam being first, yes He was a Human man first, before Jesus became a Human.  Adam never preexisted did He?

This for instance is your spin, i.e. point of view, on Romans 5:14.  Mine is different.    It appears you believe Paul is only speaking about Jesus’ state of being a man and not his whole existence as I believe.  It seems clear you also believe Jesus was non-human at one time.

Irene wrote:

Quote

Also Hebrew 1:8 God calls Jesus God.  Read it yourself.

I have read it and gave my own interpretation of that passage elsewhere.   The prophet Samuel’s ghost was called Elohim when the Witch of Endor summoned him.  Does that make him God?

[Constitutionalist]

'Elohim: Meanings:

1] God(s) (Jehovah)
2] Goddess(s)
3] god(s)
4] godlike Ones(s)
5] Divine One(s)
6] Ruler(s)
7] Judge(s)
8] Angel(s)
9] Great
10] Mighty
11] Exceeding
12] god-ward
13] godly
14] False god (demons, imaginations)
15] god-like
16] Mighty Men
17] Men of Rank (leader, chief)
18] Mighty Heroes
19] Mighty Things in Nature
20] Strength, Strong
21] Power
22] Idols

[georg]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2009,16:40)

Irene wrote: Quote My Husband looked up Col. 1:15 in His Rye Study Bible and it says Col 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OFOFOFOF ALL CREATION.”  Not over.  I don't know why the KJ did. Interesting! It is certainly possible that scripture can be translated in more than one way but that brings up the question “why did the translators choose the way they translated it?” Irene wrote: Quote Also I am not interpreting the Scriptures.  I write them down the way they say.  That my Fried is not interpreting to me. Labeling people has never set to good with me.  And that should never be done as a Christian.  Even if I would interpret, which I did not. I do not see why you are taking offense as the word “interpret” is not derogatory.  It simply means to “explain or tell the meaning of”; though I believe your biases and experiences do play a part just like they do with the translators. Irene wrote: Quote As far as Adam being first, yes He was a Human man first, before Jesus became a Human.  Adam never preexisted did He? This for instance is your spin, i.e. point of view, on Romans 5:14.  Mine is different.    It appears you believe Paul is only speaking about Jesus’ state of being a man and not his whole existence as I believe.  It seems clear you also believe Jesus was non-human at one time. Irene wrote: Quote Also Hebrew 1:8 God calls Jesus God.  Read it yourself. I have read it and gave my own interpretation of that passage elsewhere.   The prophet Samuel’s ghost was called Elohim when the Witch of Endor summoned him.  Does that make him God?

What do I know.  I aways thought when you interpret a Scripture the way you see it, and not the way it is written.  So I looked it up in our Random House Dictionary. It says=to set forth the meaning of it. Elucidate, that is how I saw it.
making something out of it, that is not written, is that not what elucidate means.  You think I took offense?  No I just said what I did.  You really like to interpret someones else's thoughts.  Jesus was not a none Human at one time.  He was a Spirit being.That is not Human flesh is it?  My spin!!  That is laughable.  I did not even looked at
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type to come.
Does that really mean what you said.  He who is a type to come.  I don't see anything what I said that was so wrong.
It seems to me, you want to put everything I say on a scale.

So you don't think that Hebrew 1:8 is what it says? Interesting to me, because it goes along with John 1:1.
Is that also not so?  It seems to me you want to trow out two Scriptures.  IMO and that is my opinion and not written in Blood, that God is a title.  Both have other names.  We are the Sons of God and to say that we are Family, a title,  is not that far fetched.
So did you look at what t8 had to say on this subject in the tread I said.
Auf Wiedersehn, Irene

[kerwin]

Irene,

You do have a point of view.  Whether that point of view agrees with God’s or not is up to him to decide.   The most I intend to do is to point out that other points of view exist and why I consider them consistent with the nature of God.

I did that with Hebrews 1:8 and Romans 5:14.   I only pointed out a possible contradiction to your chosen interpretation of Colossians 1:15-17.  I believe you have the capability to judge matters for yourself with inspiration from God.   He will certainly inspire anyone who seeks him with all their heart.

As for John 1:1 I believe I understand it more literally than you do.   I believe word means “a unit of language” and I have no doubt that God’s word was both with him and was him in the beginning.  God is righteous as is his word and have been since the beginning.

The question that comes to my mind “is Jesus a man and has he always been a man?”

Trust in Jesus,  trust in God.

[georg]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2009,21:00)

Irene, You do have a point of view.  Whether that point of view agrees with God’s or not is up to him to decide.   The most I intend to do is to point out that other points of view exist and why I consider them consistent with the nature of God. I did that with Hebrews 1:8 and Romans 5:14.   I only pointed out a possible contradiction to your chosen interpretation of Colossians 1:15-17.  I believe you have the capability to judge matters for yourself with inspiration from God.   He will certainly inspire anyone who seeks him with all their heart. As for John 1:1 I believe I understand it more literally than you do.   I believe word means “a unit of language” and I have no doubt that God’s word was both with him and was him in the beginning.  God is righteous as is his word and have been since the beginning. The question that comes to my mind “is Jesus a man and has he always been a man?” Trust in Jesus,  trust in God.

True  We should all put our Trust in God and let Him handle the way we think about a subject at hand.
Bless you and may God be with you, Irene

[Ed J]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 07 2009,12:58)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2009,11:44) Irene wrote: Quote I believe that Jesus preexisted and I have proven so by Scriptures. I suggest you consider thinking more like a monotheistic Jew and less like a polytheistic Greek when interpreting Paul’s writings. Scripture quoted by Irene: Quote Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. verse 16 For instance “over” is not a synonym of  the word “of”. Scripture quoted by Irene: Quote For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that is on earth, visible and invisible……… verse 17   And He is before all things, and in him all things consist. This passage gives you more support but your chose interpretation contradicts scripture that states Adam came first. Romans 5L14(NIV) reads: Quote Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. So it is evident that you disagree with Paul who taught that Adam cam first. I could address the rest but I believe that one contradiction is enough for you to find a way to address at the present. My Husband looked up Col. 1:15 in His Rye Study Bible and it says Col 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OFOFOFOF ALL CREATION.”  Not over.  I don't know why the KJ did.  But in Rev. it did not , it said of Rev. 3:14 ..”These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF OFOF THE CREATION OF GOD. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and was God. Also Hebrew 1:8 God calls Jesus God.  Read it yourself. And are you going to call Jesus a name and a liar?  Because in John 17:5 He said this. ” And now, O Father, glory Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with you before the World was.”  And then He went back to Heaven with His Father where He had been before. Also I am not interpeting the Scriptures.  I write them down the way they say.  That my Fried is not interpeting to me. Labing people has never set to good with me.  And that should never be done as a Christian.  Even if I would interpet, which I did not. But I guess from certain people you cant expect anything else. As far as Adam being first, yes He was a Human man first, before Jesus became a Human.  Adam never preexcited did He? Also God so loved the World that He send His only begotten Son into the world that throuigh Him we might be saveth. Where did God send His Son from? One more thing, I did find the preexisting tread that was done before, it is in Truth or Tradition-Preexisting. t8 has a post there and others too, over 500posts. Some agree andothers do not. Wer hat dier uber die leber gelaufen.  Ein mensh der nichts anderes weiss muss so was machen. Guten Abend, Irene

Hi Irene,

I see you refuse to be labeled too.

Ed J

[martian]

If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given christ because of his preexistance? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?

[martian]

Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance?

[Author]

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