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There has been much speculation concerning who and What Jesus was before becoming Man on earth.
I will lay out some information that we already know and I hope you will participate by adding to it from your own Scriptural rendering.
Perhaps what is missed by one will be exposed by another.
I shield myself by stating that “In the Main it actually doesn't matter – it is for 'Interest Only', “Discussion” and “Scripturally-based Speculation”
How did Jesus come to be – The Scriptures does not say. Therefore we cannot know – Just as we cannot know the lineage of melchzedik.
Now Scriptures tells us that. And Jesus is directly compared to him.
We can speculate and assumate and presumulate but there is nothing that says it.
What we do know:
1) He was with God in the beginning, before the world was, and he was the [CHIEF] person responsible for the creation of the world.2) That the angels were Created being – but Scriptures doesn't say that Jesus created them – in fact, since Satan is 'as powerful' as Jesus and more powerful than any other angel is there room for speculation (not assumptions nor presumptions) on something here?
3) That Jesus is [a] Son of God – as are ALL of God's …God's … all [other] created beings.
4) That God loved Jesus more than all of his Sons (“You love righteousness and hate wickedness” – Psalm 45:7)
5) That God's Special Servant would be sent to bring Salvation to man (we imply that this is Jesus ONLY BY hindsight – that is: We know that Jesus came – therefore … It must have been him that the verse refers)
6) “while the Morning Stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?” Job 38:7. The Morning Stars – Special Sons of God sang together – along with all the [other] son's of God shouting with joy. There is a distinction between the Special Sons and the ordinary Sons of God – what does this mean. Who are theses special Sons of God?
7) We know that God had more than one Special Son – They are called “Mighty Ones” and “Princes” (Princ[ipl]e Sons) and that ONE HAS FALLEN (Psalm 82) – who might that one be?
8) Lucifer, was called “Morning Star” Isaiah 14:21… Jesus is called “Morning Star”; Rev 22:16.
9) We know that Lucifer was THE MOST GLORIOUS Angel in heaven. We know that Saul was the most 'glorious' man in his tribe – standing head and shoulders above all else and for that reason he was chosen to be King
10) We know that: The first sins and is replaced by a second
Book of Esther: Haman is established as the King's overseer but abuses his position in attempting to wipe out the Jews by way of an unrevokable edict (Adam's Sin)- God's people (Wipe away God's word). Is hanged and Mordecai, the Righteous Jew, is established in his place and SAVES the Jews by another edict (The gift of Salvation by Christ)..messy…I'm tired(it's nearly Midnight in UK)
(For he taketh away the first in order to establish the second)11) We know that the second is anointed and begotten over the first and is given the covenant promise (Which is finalised in Christ)
Nick,
Thank you for your input.
Perhaps I should have explained that I will be using the “Lucifer” to refer to Satan as it is a popular name used for him and doses not detract from or cause confusion to Scriptures.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 07 2010,09:35) How did Jesus come to be – The Scriptures does not say. Therefore we cannot know – Just as we cannot know the lineage of melchzedik. Now Scriptures tells us that. And Jesus is directly compared to him.
We can speculate and assumate and presumulate but there is nothing that says it.
What we do know:
1) He was with God in the beginning, before the world was, and he was the [CHIEF] person responsible for the creation of the world.2) That the angels were Created being – but Scriptures doesn't say that Jesus created them – in fact, since Satan is 'as powerful' as Jesus and more powerful than any other angel is there room for speculation (not assumptions nor presumptions) on something here?
3) That Jesus is [a] Son of God – as are ALL of God's …God's … all [other] created beings.
4) That God loved Jesus more than all of his Sons (“You love righteousness and hate wickedness” – Psalm 45:7)
5) That God's Special Servant would be sent to bring Salvation to man (we imply that this is Jesus ONLY BY hindsight – that is: We know that Jesus came – therefore … It must have been him that the verse refers)
6) “while the Morning Stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?” Job 38:7. The Morning Stars – Special Sons of God sang together – along with all the [other] son's of God shouting with joy. There is a distinction between the Special Sons and the ordinary Sons of God – what does this mean. Who are theses special Sons of God?
7) We know that God had more than one Special Son – They are called “Mighty Ones” and “Princes” (Princ[ipl]e Sons) and that ONE HAS FALLEN (Psalm 82) – who might that one be?
8) Lucifer, was called “Morning Star” Isaiah 14:21… Jesus is called “Morning Star”; Rev 22:16.
9) We know that Lucifer was THE MOST GLORIOUS Angel in heaven. We know that Saul was the most 'glorious' man in his tribe – standing head and shoulders above all else and for that reason he was chosen to be King
10) We know that: The first sins and is replaced by a second
Book of Esther: Haman is established as the King's overseer but abuses his position in attempting to wipe out the Jews by way of an unrevokable edict (Adam's Sin)- God's people (Wipe away God's word). Is hanged and Mordecai, the Righteous Jew, is established in his place and SAVES the Jews by another edict (The gift of Salvation by Christ)..messy…I'm tired(it's nearly Midnight in UK)
(For he taketh away the first in order to establish the second)11) We know that the second is anointed and begotten over the first and is given the covenant promise (Which is finalised in Christ)
Hey JA,based on what we know, its easier to stick to scripture than anything, i cant stand to speculate even though im also guilty of it, because the arguements based on speculatin goes beyond the universe. Its a forever cycle, of arguements. Its like debating the qualities of the perfect woman without any facts.
1) agreed. John 1:1 Collasions 1
2) Where does scripture state that Satan is as powerful as Jesus? He was the strongest Angel. i disagree with this.
3) Depends not all other bene-elohims can create as Jesus could.
4) agreed.
5) agreed
6) many times angels are refered to as the stars.
lets not speculate. The stars werent created until day 4. the angels shouted for joy. The verse was in a form of a question to job if he knew such things. To continue any further who the speacial sons are, its impossible. to say they are even speacial is already a speculation.7) if your talking about the Cheribums than it was Satan himself that fell.
8) I did not see lucifer beign called the morning star in isaiah 14:21, i did not find this scripture. i did find this though.
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Jesus does call himself the morning star.
Revelation 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.
>?How are you given the morning star?
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.9) Your point?
10) Where are you getting this from? Your saying that the first sins were washed away from the book of esther?
11) second is anoited? what second? your talking about the book of esther?
oh your from the Uk?
what part?Jesus before time…hmmm, the Bible says that the Firstborn created all things in heaven and on the earth. There is your answer…Jesus was the 'firstborn' before time.
Before He became the offspring (branch) of David, He was the root of David. When He became the branch of David, He was still the root of David…100%root and 100% branch all at the same time.
The Firstborn became the Root of David and then became the Branch of David. The Son of God was and remains the Firstborn of God, the Root of David and the Branch of David. This is significant…do not divide the Branch from His past history.
Hi LU,
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
He is not now according to the flesh.
That Spirit of Christ is eternal and inspired the prophets[1Peter1]Any one else got any input.
There are some interesting views being shown here.
Can anyone add to what has been said here.
Which is the most beautiful planet in the Solar System?
Which is the second?
SF, sorry, there is a fullstop missing after 'second'.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2010,16:27) Hi LU,
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
He is not now according to the flesh.
That Spirit of Christ is eternal and inspired the prophets[1Peter1]
Nick,
So, now the Lord is according to the spirit and not according to the flesh. That's fine. Before flesh He was the Firstborn that created all things in heaven and on earth and the root of David and since the flesh…the offspring of David too, even according to the spirit, He remains what He was in His past…the Firstborn that created all things in heaven and on earth.The Spirit of Christ is eternal and so are the saints.
Jesus before time, He was a Spirit Being like He is now, a Spirit Being that was not immortal otherwise He could not have died. However now is immortal and will never die. The Scriptures that are very seldom someone gives that Jesus came forth from the Father is in
Proverbs 8 it starts in verse
22 The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
verse 23 I have been established from everlasting.
From the beginning before there ever was an earth.verse 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth.
When there were no fountains abounding with water.verse 25 Before the Mountains were settled,
Before the Hills I was brought forth.verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primeval dust of the world.verse 27 When He prepared the heavens I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep.verse 28 When He established the clouds above.
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep.verse 29 When He assigned to the sea it's limit's,
so that the waters would not transgress His commands.
When He marked out the fountains of the earth.verse 30 THEN I WAS BESIDE HIM AS A MASTER CRAFTSMAN; AND I WAS DAILY HIS DELIGHT.
Some now will say that it is wisdom, however when you think of it, could wisdom ever be a craftsman?
That to me does not make sense. Also God the Father always had wisdom and there were no need to create it…Jesus was brought fourth by His Father and was His delight every day. He is the firstborn of all creation long before the world was.
Peace and Love to all, IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2010,16:55) Hi LU,
Yes before flesh he was the Spirit, the Word.
Good Nick,
Tell me if the 'Word' was an it or a he…a thing or a person.Quote (Arnold @ June 08 2010,17:08) Jesus before time, He was a Spirit Being like He is now, a Spirit Being that was not immortal otherwise He could not have died. The Scriptures that very seldom someone gives that Jesus came forth from the Father is in
Proverbs 8 it starts in verse
22 The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
verse 23 I have been established from everlasting.
From the beginning before there ever was an earth.
verse 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth.
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
verse 25 Before the Mountains were settled,
Before the Hills I was brought forth.
verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primeval dust of the world.
verse 27 When He prepared the heavens I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep.
verse 28 When He established the clouds above.
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep.
verse 29 When He assigned to the sea it's limit's,
so that the waters would not transgress His commands.
When He marked out the fountains of the earth.verse 30 THEN I WAS BESIDE HIM AS A MASTER CRAFTSMAN; AND I WAS DAILY HIS DELIGHT.
Some now will say that it is wisdom, however when you think of it, could wisdom ever be a craftsman?
That to me does not make sense. Jesus was brought fourth by His Father and was His delight every day. He is the firstborn of all creation long before the world was.
Peace and Love to all, Irene
Good post, Irene.Quote (Lightenup @ June 09 2010,09:10) Quote (Arnold @ June 08 2010,17:08) Jesus before time, He was a Spirit Being like He is now, a Spirit Being that was not immortal otherwise He could not have died. The Scriptures that very seldom someone gives that Jesus came forth from the Father is in
Proverbs 8 it starts in verse
22 The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
verse 23 I have been established from everlasting.
From the beginning before there ever was an earth.
verse 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth.
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
verse 25 Before the Mountains were settled,
Before the Hills I was brought forth.
verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primeval dust of the world.
verse 27 When He prepared the heavens I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep.
verse 28 When He established the clouds above.
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep.
verse 29 When He assigned to the sea it's limit's,
so that the waters would not transgress His commands.
When He marked out the fountains of the earth.verse 30 THEN I WAS BESIDE HIM AS A MASTER CRAFTSMAN; AND I WAS DAILY HIS DELIGHT.
Some now will say that it is wisdom, however when you think of it, could wisdom ever be a craftsman?
That to me does not make sense. Jesus was brought fourth by His Father and was His delight every day. He is the firstborn of all creation long before the world was.
Peace and Love to all, Irene
Good post, Irene.
THank you Kathi, I did add something that I had forgotten….did I open a can of worms though…..???
IreneJust a point of order: If Wisdom is 'pre-Jesus' then Wisdom is declaring that God created everything while Wisdom looked on.
How does reconcile with Scriptures declaring Jesus as the creator?
Can anyone answer this?
Ok,
Wisdom was 'by his side as a mastercraftsman'.This then reconciles with Scriptures that say that God created the Heavens and the Earth…and that Jesus also creared the Heavens and the Earth.
Hi.
Justin Martyr Early church Apologist aprox 100AD says
“I shall give you another testimony, my friends, from the Scriptures, that God begot before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power proceeding from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos;”
Philo also said the same.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 09 2010,08:45) Any one else got any input. There are some interesting views being shown here.
Can anyone add to what has been said here.
Which is the most beautiful planet in the Solar System?
Which is the second?
SF, sorry, there is a fullstop missing after 'second'.
eh?????Quote (JustAskin @ June 09 2010,09:24) Just a point of order: If Wisdom is 'pre-Jesus' then Wisdom is declaring that God created everything while Wisdom looked on. How does reconcile with Scriptures declaring Jesus as the creator?
Can anyone answer this?
JA……….Wisdom is (NOT) a Person it is a SPIRIT (INTELLECT), There are Seven SPIRITS (INTELLECTS) of GOD and wisdom is one of them. Wisdom was Personified in scripture to show its value in the decision process of GOD. Just as the Adversarial Spirit (intellect) is personified as a Satan, but neither are real beings but what is (IN) Beings. Jesus no where in scripture is personified as WISDOM . Preexistences force texts to meet their dogmas and false teachings. Jesus plainly said He was (NOT) a SPIRIT BEING, He had a Body Spirit does (NOT) Have a BODY it occupies a Body, Jesus after his resurrection had a BODY and Still does. No where does scripture say Jesus was turned into a Spirit Being or turned back into one either. Jesus has spirit (IN) Him as does all who are alive. The probelm is People do not understand what (SPIRIT) really is. They think it is a Person when in fact it is not a person but what is (IN) a person. This creates confusion in understanding scriptures. IMOIsa 44:24….> Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the (womb), I am the LORD that MAKES (ALL) things; that stretched abroad the earth by (MYSELF).
My question is why can't people believe that as well as many many more written the show the same thing. Forcing the text to try to make it mean something else is what false and (MYSTERY)religion is all about. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
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