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Quote Mandy..I strongly advise you to watch the videos that I post up in these threads…as a former JW I can attest that they are 1000% accurate It is my experience that people who don't agree with an organizations stance on sexual misconduct (such as Dirty doesn't) they tend to lash out against that organization. Their love of whatever compels them to leave and then they have to prove in their mind that they were right. And no, while some of the things the clips say are accurate, some are just not at all. And the things that are accurate can usually be explained. Such people like to create lists–1. They don't believe Jesus is God, 2. they…
As you noticed, number 1 is accurate, but it's also true. The problem is, a whole lot of people believe Jesus is God. If the list is large enough, there's a whole lot of things people disagree with. Most of it can easily be explained with scripture. Whatever is said against them, it's easy to find references that say JW's base their beliefs on the Bible. (whether you agree with how they understand it or not.)Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2009,14:05) I didn't watch the clip, (and I'm not sure what you mean exactly by “YHWH truth” but I've seen enough clips to know that it does not have a neutral stance, and almost certainly has a grand bias against JW.
Yes there is a group who are the body of Christ which is made up of people who have the Spirit. This body is the temple of God not made with human hands. This body works in the name of Jesus and is like no other organisation on earth because it is not man made rather it is built by Christ himself.The JWs on the other hand like many other denominations are man made, and they do their works in their own name. e.g., Mormons do their works in the name of the organisation that they represent and likewise so do the JWs, Catholics, and probably most denominations.
I use to fellowship at a Vineyard and the preaching consisted of the Vineyard this and the Vineyard that.
Of course this is not to say that true believers do not dwell in such organisations as they do. But the truth is that this Body of Christ is made up of people the world over, who work in many different professions and who fellowship in different places including some of these man-made denominations.
The true body is made up of people who are not called by any one name except to say that they do true works in the name if Yeshua the son of God. Any organisation of man that proclaims to be the true organisation (thus the body of Christ) is a liar and a thief.
Jesus Church is not called by any name such as the Catholics, JWs, Mormons, or the Moonies. It is called the Body of Christ. It owns no property, it has no financial arm, and it has no building of directors. Sure it is made of poeple that own property, who work as financers, and may be directors of companies and even leaders of the Church.
What should be known is that not all is of God. Many works are of man and done not in the name of Yeshua, but in their own name.
John 5:43
I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.Mark 9:41
I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.Acts 4:10
then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.Look at the last scripture. How does this compare with those organisations that work in their own names?
The answer is they are like Babel. They build towers in their own name and the result is division.
The Watchtower is but another example of a tower built by mens hands. It's fruit is and will be division and apostacy.
Someone named Danny Haszard wrote the following below. I find his comments very interesting as it helps to understand why the hate campaign against JW’s is so great. Please read this as it may help to understand the overwhelming number of anti-JW propaganda that exists.
http://www.topix.com/forum/music/classical/TKIEJNGJDUTB9MRUU
“Do not discount the power of one”
WARNING TO THE WATCHTOWER RELIGIOUS RACKET
To the best of my knowledge there is only ONE unique Danny Daniel Haszard in cyberspace the Haszard clan is all over the world we go back to medieval old English.
The point,,is any search pages shown here and there are TENS OF THOUSANDS are going to be 98% anti-Watchtower cult pages,as this is my (Danny Haszard) primary mission.
These are links made by me in a 5 1/2 year period all pages created individually and loaded up on the net by hand.
http://www.google.com/search…
GOOGLE SHOWS 31,000 PAGES
Yahoo shows 100,000 pages
Theses results are INCOMPLETE and UNDERRATED as the indexing is slow keeping up with me
I make dozens more everyday and NETWORK with other apostates ( this is the real scary part for you Watchtower) I actually promote other colleague links like JWD, Freeminds and Silentlambs, ahead of my own home page dannyhaszard.com
Theses pages are on countless different servers and are cached forever as long as the Internet exist as long as civilization continues.
We have IMMORTALITY yes the Watchtower lied when they promised me everlasting life, but I will get it anyway!
Watchtower I will haunt you from beyond the grave!
Make more new pages (like this one now) every day LOTS of em.
I am a life long born 3rd generation JW with a typical Watchtower minimal (1975 era) education and 5 years ago didn't know how to turn the PC on.
I am like a Jewish holocaust survivor turned Nazi hunter who will stop at nothing to demand justice.
The watchtower has received over a dozen certified letters,and western union telegrams (back in the old pre-cyber days) in the last 15 years from me and has ignored my pleas for Justice.
I am a WITNESS of the WATCHTOWER HOLOCAUST of family destruction.
I am NOT the only one the Watchtower is in deep deep bleep.
Oh,btw so far I have left GOD out of it,but what do you think he is going to do with the Watchtower?
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.” — Mahatma Gandhi …
“Do not discount the power of one”
–Danny HaszardRegarding the silent lambs site that apostates like to promote, here is what JW's have said:
“For the sake of the victims in these cases, we are pleased that a settlement has been reached. Our hearts go out to all those who suffer as a result of child abuse. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide are united in their abhorrence of this sin and crime.—Romans 12:9.
We do not condone or protect child molesters. Our elders expel unrepentant sinners who commit this crime. (1 Corinthians 5:13) In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations. (Acts 20:28) During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States. In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts. Of course, one victim is one victim too many. However, the incidence of this crime among Jehovah’s Witnesses is rare.
Congregation elders comply with child abuse reporting laws. (Mark 12:17; Romans 13:1) We do not silence victims. Our members have an absolute right to report this horrible crime to the authorities. The October 2007 issue of our monthly journal Awake! features the cover series, “Keep Your Children Safe!” These articles clearly show our concern for protecting children from sexual abuse.”
http://www.jw-media.org/frames/beliefs_practices.htm(bold added by me.)
David, sometimes there is negative feedvack on things because they are true. Not all negativity pointed at an organisation are true and not all are wrong. Scripture reminds us that the end times will be a time of people heaping together teachers that teach what they want to hear. So that goes both ways. If you only hear (and act upon) from JWs or if you only look for the negative when talking of JWs. Both views can hear what they want to hear.
I have been open to the truth and open to a possibility that an organisation is the true organisation of God. But scripture shows me time and time again that the organisation of which Christ is the head, is the Body of Christ and not a denomination, cult, Church with it's own name, or any other worldly organisation. Then I look around and I see thousands of denominations. The conclusion is that men are missing the mark here. They are misplacing what is really true. The truth is that the body is like no other body in the world. The reason it is like no other is because it is not of this world. It is not a physical body with physical arms. It is a body of believers with Christ as the head.
The reality for you to face up to david is that the JWS are one organisation of thousands. They are no different to them in the sense that they are worldly like the others.
david you are to scared to question this organisation because you trust in man and perhaps because you have vested your life's work in this.
I can tell you here and now that if you were a true seeker then you wouldn't be scared to question anything that man says, and if you were wise you would question everything that men say. That includes me, the group of men who make up the Watchtower, and anyone else.
Don't let pride make you select for yourself a group of men whom you will follow. Hear God for yourself and fellowship with like minded people, i.e, people who seek the truth and hear God's voice, and are filled with his Spirit.
You can be a partaker. Do not let anyone force you to be an observer. They are only blocking the way for you.
T8…….Amen to that post. David consider what T8 has said brother. Don't let some organization control you.
Love and peace to you and yours…………………………….gene
Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2009,14:05) I didn't watch the clip, (and I'm not sure what you mean exactly by “YHWH truth” but I've seen enough clips to know that it does not have a neutral stance, and almost certainly has a grand bias against JW. Here is what I believe. I believe that Jesus said that in the last days, his followers whom he commanded to preach the good news in all the nations, would be doing so. (And they are.) And so I believe they would be organized and gather together, as commanded. (And so they do.) And I believe they would not be killing each other, or others, but would rather die themselves. I believe they would live the Bible, that it would be a real part in their lives. I believe they would stand out as different, for many reasons and generally be hated, as were Jesus' earliest disciples.
I have only found one group that is doing this. Yes, you'll attempt to make some comparison with the Mormon's (only 1/200 of them are engaged in the ministry.)
You'd also expect that they wouldn't believe false non-biblical, God dishonoring beliefs, such as hellfire, the trinity, etc. (And so they don't.)
If God wanted a direct unified message delivered to all the world, it seems there is only one group who could do this.
Typical
David…stop sugar coating why you did not watch the clip…here is why DAVID did not watch the clip…and before you watch the clip…notice David made reference to “APOSTATES”…and then he went on to talk about anti-jw sites….read Davids last 3 posts…and then watch the video… your eyes will open
Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2009,14:45) Regarding the silent lambs site that apostates like to promote, here is what JW's have said: “For the sake of the victims in these cases, we are pleased that a settlement has been reached. Our hearts go out to all those who suffer as a result of child abuse. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide are united in their abhorrence of this sin and crime.—Romans 12:9.
We do not condone or protect child molesters. Our elders expel unrepentant sinners who commit this crime. (1 Corinthians 5:13) In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations. (Acts 20:28) During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States. In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts. Of course, one victim is one victim too many. However, the incidence of this crime among Jehovah’s Witnesses is rare.
Congregation elders comply with child abuse reporting laws. (Mark 12:17; Romans 13:1) We do not silence victims. Our members have an absolute right to report this horrible crime to the authorities. The October 2007 issue of our monthly journal Awake! features the cover series, “Keep Your Children Safe!” These articles clearly show our concern for protecting children from sexual abuse.”
http://www.jw-media.org/frames/beliefs_practices.htm(bold added by me.)
O-M-G..this is absolute malarcky…Please visit these sites for the REAL picture of JW and child abuse…
Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2009,14:05) I didn't watch the clip, (and I'm not sure what you mean exactly by “YHWH truth” but I've seen enough clips to know that it does not have a neutral stance, and almost certainly has a grand bias against JW. Here is what I believe. I believe that Jesus said that in the last days, his followers whom he commanded to preach the good news in all the nations, would be doing so. (And they are.) And so I believe they would be organized and gather together, as commanded. (And so they do.) And I believe they would not be killing each other, or others, but would rather die themselves. I believe they would live the Bible, that it would be a real part in their lives. I believe they would stand out as different, for many reasons and generally be hated, as were Jesus' earliest disciples.
I have only found one group that is doing this. Yes, you'll attempt to make some comparison with the Mormon's (only 1/200 of them are engaged in the ministry.)
You'd also expect that they wouldn't believe false non-biblical, God dishonoring beliefs, such as hellfire, the trinity, etc. (And so they don't.)
If God wanted a direct unified message delivered to all the world, it seems there is only one group who could do this.
Oh by the way..you DID NOT..answer his question…The question was..David do you believe that the JW leadership is the sole channel for yhwh truth?
Translated…since you say you dont know what he means
David…do you believe that the Governing Body is GOD's SOLE CHANNEL of communication to the rest of the world?
Here ya go David..lemme help you out..
Watchtower 1983 February 15 p.12 You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth-But How?
A third requirement is that we be associated with God's channel, his organization. … Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.
[Emphasis Added]
Revelation — It's Grand Climax At Hand (book) 1988 pp.54 chap.10 Abhorring the “Deep Things of Satan”
22 Finally, Jesus declares: “Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.” (Revelation 2:29) For the fourth time, Jesus here repeats this rousing refrain, and it will conclude all three messages yet to come. Do you have that responsive ear? Then keep listening intently as God, by his spirit, continues to provide counsel through his channel.
[Emphasis Added]
Watchtower 2001 August 1 How to Make Your Advancement Manifest
8 First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.”
[Emphasis Added]
Our Kingdom Ministry September 2002 (For Britain) p. 8
5 God's Appointed Channel: Bear in mind that our heavenly Father has an appointed channel of communication, “the faithful and discreet slave.” That “slave” has the responsibility to determine what information is made available to the household of faith, as well as “the proper time” for it to be dispensed. This spiritual food is available only through the theocratic organization. We should always look to God's appointed channel for reliable information, not to a network of Internet users. — Matt.24:45.
SEE: http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/god_s_channel.html
for more info
Two thoughts–
1. Why would anyone in any religion belong to that religion if they didn't feel it was the correct religion?
2. The earliest Christians believed exactly that.
Hi david,
But no human religion is correct.James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.Since I live in Canada, and since I find the following quote extremely confusing (that it exists at all), I like to quote it, because I feel it irritates some:
The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under Jehovah’s Witnesses), second paragraph:
“The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. Their services are kept simple. They have no ornate buildings or clerical vestments, no divisions of members into clergy and laity. All are brothers, and every one baptized is under obligation to be a minister.”
(Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol 6)I went to the library and checked this quote myself. It is not taken out of context. This is what it says.
As far as I can tell, this quote is accurate.
david
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2009,10:37) Hi david,
But no human religion is correct.James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Your scripture contradicts your statement Nick.The scripture said there is “religion” that “God” “accepts.”
Looking at that scripture, I feel more than any other group, JW's have kept themselves from being “polluted by the world.” We don't get involved in the world, in it's politics, in it's bloodstained wars, etc. And we are reviled for it. As a group, we are “no part of the world” as Jesus said his followers would be.Quote (dirtyknections @ Feb. 26 2009,04:11) Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2009,14:45) Regarding the silent lambs site that apostates like to promote, here is what JW's have said: “For the sake of the victims in these cases, we are pleased that a settlement has been reached. Our hearts go out to all those who suffer as a result of child abuse. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide are united in their abhorrence of this sin and crime.—Romans 12:9.
We do not condone or protect child molesters. Our elders expel unrepentant sinners who commit this crime. (1 Corinthians 5:13) In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations. (Acts 20:28) During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States. In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts. Of course, one victim is one victim too many. However, the incidence of this crime among Jehovah’s Witnesses is rare.
Congregation elders comply with child abuse reporting laws. (Mark 12:17; Romans 13:1) We do not silence victims. Our members have an absolute right to report this horrible crime to the authorities. The October 2007 issue of our monthly journal Awake! features the cover series, “Keep Your Children Safe!” These articles clearly show our concern for protecting children from sexual abuse.”
http://www.jw-media.org/frames/beliefs_practices.htm(bold added by me.)
O-M-G..this is absolute malarcky…Please visit these sites for the REAL picture of JW and child abuse…
Well then, you will have no problem showing JW's are liars.Out of the half a million or so elders in the past 100 years, what are the names (other than the 11) who are guilty of this?
Hi david,
The view from outside is rather different.
A human organisation working in their human strength to obey human commanders.All thus overlaid with a smug sense of superiority not unlike the Pharisee in the temple.
Quote (david @ Feb. 26 2009,10:47) Quote (dirtyknections @ Feb. 26 2009,04:11) Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2009,14:45) Regarding the silent lambs site that apostates like to promote, here is what JW's have said: “For the sake of the victims in these cases, we are pleased that a settlement has been reached. Our hearts go out to all those who suffer as a result of child abuse. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide are united in their abhorrence of this sin and crime.—Romans 12:9.
We do not condone or protect child molesters. Our elders expel unrepentant sinners who commit this crime. (1 Corinthians 5:13) In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations. (Acts 20:28) During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States. In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts. Of course, one victim is one victim too many. However, the incidence of this crime among Jehovah’s Witnesses is rare.
Congregation elders comply with child abuse reporting laws. (Mark 12:17; Romans 13:1) We do not silence victims. Our members have an absolute right to report this horrible crime to the authorities. The October 2007 issue of our monthly journal Awake! features the cover series, “Keep Your Children Safe!” These articles clearly show our concern for protecting children from sexual abuse.”
http://www.jw-media.org/frames/beliefs_practices.htm(bold added by me.)
O-M-G..this is absolute malarcky…Please visit these sites for the REAL picture of JW and child abuse…
Well then, you will have no problem showing JW's are liars.Out of the half a million or so elders in the past 100 years, what are the names (other than the 11) who are guilty of this?
🙂Denial is not a river in egypt David
Listen people…if you really want a comprehensive breakdown of the JW's…
Read…. Crisis of Conscience…by Ray Franz
and… In search of Christian Freedom…by Ray Franz
Ray Franz WAS a member of the Governing Body of JW's…his Uncle Fred Franz later went on to become the President….He also was the main researcher and writer of the “Aid to Bible Understanding” (aka the JW bible encyclopedia) and countless books and articles that appeared over the years
Ray left because he had trouble with the teachings and practices of the Org…
IMHO…his books are unbiased, straightford, and bible based…
also read… “Captives of a Concept” by Don Cameron… and for you prophecy buffs
“Gentile Times: Reconsidered” by Carl Jonsson
matter fact here ya go:
http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Conscience-Raymond-Franz/dp/0914675044
Quote Denial is not a river in egypt David I'm not saying it has never happened or that JW's are perfect. No human is.
Dirty, have you noticed that when a JW does something bad…anything, the headline says: “JW did….” but when a Catholic, protestant, etc, etc, does the same thing, it doesn't say this. It either names them, or says a man from so and so, did this, etc.
I think this is because it is so rare, and rare things make the news. Catholics can do something a million times, without it making headlines, but when a JW does it once, it is newsworthy.Also, Dirty, I would have thought you'd have jumped at the chance to prove JW's are liars.
It is not suprising that there are more anti-JW sites on the net then for other religions. In fact, this would have to be the case, as Jesus over and over again said his followers would be hated. (You know which scriptures…)
But is what they say true? Are they just copying the same story over and over and over again?My post from a page back, on a guy named Danny Haszard should give you a clue.
As he said:
“The point,is any search pages shown here and there are TENS OF THOUSANDS are going to be 98% anti-Watchtower cult pages,as this is my (Danny Haszard) primary mission….
I make dozens more everyday and NETWORK with other apostates ( this is the real scary part for you Watchtower) I actually promote other colleague links like JWD, Freeminds and Silentlambs, ahead of my own home page dannyhaszard.com.”This guy spends his life copying and pasting bad stories about JW's.
Here's a lesson in research, Dirty. Someone from the ministry told me that Jesus was one of many figures that followed the egyptian horus figure. If you do a little research, you'll find, very easily 20 pages that all have the exact same information. It is all copies. And it all makes it seem as though the story were true. But you do a little more research and you find that it was all based on a book someone wrote, who based their information on the book of the dead. (The book of the dead, is almost entirely like the book of revelation.) This person who wrote the book doesn't reveal how they came to a lot of their conclusions. And some of their conclusions are just wrong.
The problem is, PEOPLE ARE LAZY. They, and yourself included, won't research the stories. Even though the watchtower has plainly said the number of elders sued for such, and you strongly disagree, you won't go through any effort to prove what to you is an obvious lie.
People like bad stories. Look at the news. But people don't do research themselves. I, however, do love research. Remember when you first appeared, you said I was doing “serious intel on [you].”So, that being the case, I don't just assume that a story is true. I do serious intel on it. You'd be surprised how many people believe whatever they read. Or, perhaps you wouldn't be.
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