ISM Scale

[Proclaimer]

Quote (2besee @ June 07 2013,15:57)

'Yes', Jesus did say “ye are gods, all sons of the most high” – but the quoted scripture ALSO said “I tell you you are men, and you will die like men” so that is not saying that they were 'supernatural heavenly Gods' is it? They were CALLED GODS – there is a difference, and that is what Paul was trying to say when he said that there ARE SO CALLED “gods”, when in truth, there is only one true God, the Father, and only one hope of being an everlasting son of God through the savior, Jesus Christ.

Here is where I am confused because what you said is what we are saying. We actually agree I think.

I am not saying that Jesus is another god so much as he can be called theos in the correct context just as angels and men can be too.

Did you think we were proclaiming that Jesus was another God next to the bigger God or something?

I think you will find that Mike and Terr both believe that Jesus can be called theos as men and angels can too in a legitimate way. But all three of us believe exactly what you said, that there is one true God the Father.

What exactly are we debating if anything?

[2besee]

Quote

Did you think we were proclaiming that Jesus was another God next to the bigger God or something?

T8,
I believe that that is what Mike and Terraricca believe but you will have to ask them.

[2besee]

T8,
You will have to ask Mike and Terraricca what all of the fuss is about, because it is the two of them who have disagreed with Paul's words, and choose to believe instead that there are multiple gods. They then tell us that we are ignoring the scriptures – then you are high fiving each other?

Will leave them to it.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ June 07 2013,13:00)

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2013,15:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2013,08:05) 2B, I'd be happy with direct and honest answers to those 3 questions. MIKE 2bee will not give your answers because if he does he will have to change his false belief about the scriptures and like he said HE DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS , PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES BECAUSE THEY READ IT ONES AND SO BELIEVE THAT THEY KNOW IT ALL ,OR THEY GO TO THE ETHERNET PICK UP SOME MEN MADE EXPLANATION AND GIVE IT AS AN ANSWER TO YOU ,T8 OR ME ,BECAUSE HE AS JUDGED THAT THAT MEN MADE QUOTE HE CAN BELIEVE ,BUT NOT THE SCRIPTURES ,FOR HIM SCRIPTURES ARE NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS WRITTEN BUT BY HIS OPINIONS HE MADE UP, Are you feeling okay terroricca? If i saw you on the street, yelling like that at people, I would be quite concerned.

2bee

sorry i was not yelling at you or anyone I was by mistake capitalling my words and forgot to see if they were in bold,tired i guess

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ June 07 2013,17:18)

T8, You will have to ask Mike and Terraricca what all of the fuss is about, because it is the two of them who have disagreed with Paul's words, and choose to believe instead that there are multiple gods. They then tell us that we are ignoring the scriptures – then you are high fiving each other? Will leave them to it.

2bee

WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT WE DISAGREE WITH PAUL ? WHEN WE TELL YOU THAT WE DO NOT ,DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE SAYING AND MAKE YOUR OWN THINKING AS OURS

[Proclaimer]

2b, I know that Mike believes that the one true God is the Father, and that Jesus and counsels of God are called theos.

But I do disagree with Mike regarding the way John 1:1c uses the word theos.

I believe it is qualitatively used and so do many scholars including Trinitarian ones. But the Trinitarian scholars that believe this to be the case still think it proves that Jesus is God because to be qualitatively God or to have the nature of God means you are God in their view. So they conveniently ignore that certain men and angels are also theos.

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2013,15:11)

Quote (942767 @ June 07 2013,08:57) Maybe to you, Pierre, and maybe also to Mike and T8 there is more than “One God”, and more than “One Lord”, but the scripture states to me as “a born again Christian, there is but “One God”, the Father, and “One Lord”, Jesus, my Lord”.  I know that there are many that are called “gods” and that God called the Judges to whom the Word of God came “gods”, but he called them that for a reason, and that was because they ruled as his representatives, but no, that does not make them “a god”.  And I know that God called “His Son” “God”, because of his position as his representative as head of the church, and because Jesus is the express image of his person, but does that make Jesus “a god” or “a God”. “One God” to me means exactly that and that is who I worship. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Religion ,does this to you,I never said that there is more than one almighty God and father of all, you have asumed that but we Mike and t8 never said anything other than that, What we acknowledge is that scriptures tells that their are other gods ,and they are not false gods just not like God almighty the father,so now you also agree to this truth,this is why he is called “The God of gods “

Hi Pierre:

What do you mean that “religion does this to me”?

I aknowledge that the scriptures state that there are those who are called “gods” or “god” for a particular reason, as I have already stated, but that does not make them “a god”. The people did not call the judges “god” or “a god”, they called them judges, and Jesus did not call himself “a god”. He stated that he was “the Son of God”.

1 Co 8 states:

Quote

1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

There are those who are called “gods” or “lords” by virture of this scripture and other scripture, but that does not make them “a god” and Jesus did not state that he was “a god” when discussing this with the Pharisees he said that he was “the Son of God”.

Quote

Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82 states:

Quote

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

And Jesus stated this:

Quote

Jhn 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Love in Christ, Marty

[abe]

Quote (t8 @ June 07 2013,04:30)

2b, I know that Mike believes that the one true God is the Father, and that Jesus and counsels of God are called theos. But I do disagree with Mike regarding the way John 1:1c uses the word theos. I believe it is qualitatively used and so do many scholars including Trinitarian ones. But the Trinitarian scholars that believe this to be the case still think it proves that Jesus is God because to be qualitatively God or to have the nature of God means you are God in their view. So they conveniently ignore that certain men and angels are also theos.

Hi T8,

1Cor.8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is [but] one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we [exist] for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we [exist] through Him.

6yet for us (Christians) there is [but] One God, the Father, from whom are all things and we [exist] for Him; and One Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we [exist] through Him.

Mike calls Jesus god, do you believe this also?

Peace brother.

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2013,00:56)

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2013,15:11) Quote (942767 @ June 07 2013,08:57) Maybe to you, Pierre, and maybe also to Mike and T8 there is more than “One God”, and more than “One Lord”, but the scripture states to me as “a born again Christian, there is but “One God”, the Father, and “One Lord”, Jesus, my Lord”.  I know that there are many that are called “gods” and that God called the Judges to whom the Word of God came “gods”, but he called them that for a reason, and that was because they ruled as his representatives, but no, that does not make them “a god”.  And I know that God called “His Son” “God”, because of his position as his representative as head of the church, and because Jesus is the express image of his person, but does that make Jesus “a god” or “a God”. “One God” to me means exactly that and that is who I worship. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Religion ,does this to you,I never said that there is more than one almighty God and father of all, you have asumed that but we Mike and t8 never said anything other than that, What we acknowledge is that scriptures tells that their are other gods ,and they are not false gods just not like God almighty the father,so now you also agree to this truth,this is why he is called “The God of gods “ Hi Pierre: What do you mean that “religion does this to me”? I aknowledge that the scriptures state that there are those who are called “gods” or “god” for a particular reason, as I have already stated, but that does not make them “a god”.  The people did not call the judges “god” or “a god”, they called them judges, and Jesus did not call himself “a god”.  He stated that he was “the Son of God”. 1 Co 8 states: Quote 1Cr 8:5   For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 1Cr 8:6   But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.   There are those who are called “gods” or “lords” by virture of this scripture and other scripture, but that does not make them “a god” and Jesus did not state that he was “a god” when discussing this with the Pharisees he said that he was “the Son of God”. Quote Jhn 10:33   The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.   Jhn 10:34   Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?   Jhn 10:35   If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;   Jhn 10:36   Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?   Psalm 82 states: Quote Psa 82:6   I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.   Psa 82:7   But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.   Psa 82:8   Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.   And Jesus stated this: Quote Jhn 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:   Jhn 17:2   As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.   Jhn 17:3   And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

it seems that now we agree ,that their his only one almighty God that his the father of our lord Jesus Christ ,but all the other gods are not equal to him ,but have a certain authority ,and so are mighty people (gods)this is the same like today with high placed people that decides what to do with the lives of their own people or other nations ,those people are very mighty people (gods)

but the mightiest of all God's his Jehovah the father of our Lord Jesus Christ ;and so it is with the lords ,Christ being the LORD of lords

[2besee]

Terraricca, well then why all of the fuss? If, as you say we agree..why are you yelling at me and others saying that we do not believe the scriptures and choose to follow some man opinion when we are saying that we believe exactly what Paul says – that though there may be those called gods and lords, to us there is but one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.  Do you agree with that? Do you understand what Paul is meaning?

[2besee]

Quote (t8 @ June 08 2013,01:30)

2b, I know that Mike believes that the one true God is the Father, and that Jesus and counsels of God are called theos. But I do disagree with Mike regarding the way John 1:1c uses the word theos. I believe it is qualitatively used and so do many scholars including Trinitarian ones. But the Trinitarian scholars that believe this to be the case still think it proves that Jesus is God because to be qualitatively God or to have the nature of God means you are God in their view. So they conveniently ignore that certain men and angels are also theos.

T8,
I'll have to look more into that.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (abe @ June 08 2013,09:17)

Hi T8, 1Cor.8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is [but] one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we [exist] for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we [exist] through Him. 6yet for us (Christians) there is [but] One God, the Father, from whom are all things and we [exist] for Him; and One Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we [exist] through Him. Mike calls Jesus god, do you believe this also? Peace brother.

Personally no I do not. I call him lord, the messiah, son of God, and the way to God.

That said, I also acknowledge that scripture calls him and counsels theos. But I also don't call these counsels theos/gods myself. But it is technically correct and I accept that for what it is because I don't want to reject any scripture.

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2013,00:56)

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2013,15:11) Quote (942767 @ June 07 2013,08:57) Maybe to you, Pierre, and maybe also to Mike and T8 there is more than “One God”, and more than “One Lord”, but the scripture states to me as “a born again Christian, there is but “One God”, the Father, and “One Lord”, Jesus, my Lord”.  I know that there are many that are called “gods” and that God called the Judges to whom the Word of God came “gods”, but he called them that for a reason, and that was because they ruled as his representatives, but no, that does not make them “a god”.  And I know that God called “His Son” “God”, because of his position as his representative as head of the church, and because Jesus is the express image of his person, but does that make Jesus “a god” or “a God”. “One God” to me means exactly that and that is who I worship. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Religion ,does this to you,I never said that there is more than one almighty God and father of all, you have asumed that but we Mike and t8 never said anything other than that, What we acknowledge is that scriptures tells that their are other gods ,and they are not false gods just not like God almighty the father,so now you also agree to this truth,this is why he is called “The God of gods “ Hi Pierre: What do you mean that “religion does this to me”? I aknowledge that the scriptures state that there are those who are called “gods” or “god” for a particular reason, as I have already stated, but that does not make them “a god”.  The people did not call the judges “god” or “a god”, they called them judges, and Jesus did not call himself “a god”.  He stated that he was “the Son of God”. 1 Co 8 states: Quote 1Cr 8:5   For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 1Cr 8:6   But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.   There are those who are called “gods” or “lords” by virture of this scripture and other scripture, but that does not make them “a god” and Jesus did not state that he was “a god” when discussing this with the Pharisees he said that he was “the Son of God”. Quote Jhn 10:33   The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.   Jhn 10:34   Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?   Jhn 10:35   If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;   Jhn 10:36   Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?   Psalm 82 states: Quote Psa 82:6   I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.   Psa 82:7   But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.   Psa 82:8   Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.   And Jesus stated this: Quote Jhn 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:   Jhn 17:2   As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.   Jhn 17:3   And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Quote

What do you mean that “religion does this to me”?

religion, listeners ,usually are convinced of their own faith and believes and so read the scriptures in a way that it confirms their unique believes ,

when you read the scriptures without any influence from out side the scriptures and so only believe what it says and understand it throughout the scriptures ,this will be different in knowledge ,

because scriptures his sharpen by scriptures

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ June 08 2013,09:09)

Marty it seems that now we agree ,that their his only one almighty God that his the father of our lord Jesus Christ ,but all the other gods are not equal to him ,but have a certain authority ,and so are mighty people (gods)this is the same like today with high placed people that decides what to do with the lives of their own people or other nations ,those people are very mighty people (gods) but the mightiest of all God's  his Jehovah the father of our Lord Jesus Christ ;and so it is with the lords ,Christ being the LORD of lords

What 'other' gods?

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ June 08 2013,13:23)

Quote (terraricca @ June 08 2013,09:09) Marty it seems that now we agree ,that their his only one almighty God that his the father of our lord Jesus Christ ,but all the other gods are not equal to him ,but have a certain authority ,and so are mighty people (gods)this is the same like today with high placed people that decides what to do with the lives of their own people or other nations ,those people are very mighty people (gods) but the mightiest of all God's  his Jehovah the father of our Lord Jesus Christ ;and so it is with the lords ,Christ being the LORD of lords What 'other' gods?

the ones that God almighty his god over them,

[terraricca]

god;means MIGHTY ONE ; SO THE TRUE GOD ,HIS THE ALMIGHTY ONE ,NO ONE LIKE HIM ;HIS SON HIS AN MIGHTY ONE WITH POWERS THAT THE ALMIGHTY AS GIVEN TO HIM SO IS THIS NOT ANOTHER MIGHTY ONE THAT HIS LESS MIGHTY THAN THE ALMIGHTY HIS FATHER ???YES

CHRIST HIMSELF SAID “ALL POWERS HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO ME ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN ;”WHO ELSE CAN MAKE THAT CLAIM NO ONE ;BUT WHAT DOES IT TAKE OR REALLY MEAN BEING A MIGHTY ONE IN HEAVEN UNDER GOD ALMIGHTY RULE THIS IS THE QUESTION.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ June 06 2013,19:57)

T8, 'Yes', Jesus did say “ye are gods, all sons of the most high” – but the quoted scripture ALSO said “I tell you you are men, and you will die like men” so that is not saying that they were 'supernatural heavenly Gods' is it?

The bolded part is not in the scripture you are paraphrasing, 2B.

Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Notice that the word translated as “mighty” is the Hebrew word “elohim” (gods).  This is an acceptable translation since, as I've been telling you, the word “el” simply means “mighty one”.

But at what time in scripture did Jehovah ever assemble on earth with a congregation of human rulers?  Never.  This Psalm speaks of an assembly like the one described in Job 1:6 and 2:1 – where Jehovah also assembled with those called “the sons of God” (“sons of the Most High” in Psalm 82).

As for the part you paraphrased incorrectly, it really says:

6 “I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’

7 But you will die like mere mortals; and fall like one of the princes.”

See the difference?  Instead of God telling them they were “men”, like you said, God called them gods, and said they would DIE LIKE MEN.

In this Psalm, God is referring to His divine counsel, who He had put in charge of overseeing the nations of the world.  But they had done a crappy job, following the lead of Satan (the “prince” to whom verse 7 alludes) instead of God, and had corrupted the position of leadership God had given them.  This is why, although they were created as immortal spirit beings, they will die like men die.

Compare with this verse:

Isaiah 24:21
In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.

Note the DIFFERENCE between the “powers in heaven” and the “rulers on earth“.  There are TWO groups of rulers – one in heaven, and one on earth.

The thought that Psalm 82 refers to men who will “die like men” ( ) was introduced by men like you guys, who intend to protect the Bible from itself, by insisting that when the Bible speaks of other gods, it is not really speaking of other gods.

There is much I can teach you about this, but for now I will leave you with this scripture:

Psalm 8
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
   human beings that you care for them?

5 You have made them a little lower than the gods (elohim)
   and crowned them with glory and honor.

2B, God made mankind a little lower than the gods.  Who are these gods that we were made lower than?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ June 06 2013,19:57)

Mike seems to believe that there are many Gods in heaven and on earth……….

I wonder where that idiot Mike ever got that idea?

1 Cor 8:5
For even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords)…………

Oh, that's right.  Idiot Mike is simply BELIEVING the scriptures.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2013,20:19)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2013,08:05) 2B, I'd be happy with direct and honest answers to those 3 questions. MIKE 2bee will not give your answers because if he does he will have to change his false belief about the scriptures………

Pierre,

When I first read this comment, I thought you were going to be wrong. Now, after reading 2B's “direct” answers, I see that you were right after all.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 06 2013,20:24)

Hi Mike: I have already showed you how.  The scripture states to a born again Christian there is but One God, the Father, and “one Lord” the Lord Jesus. And the scripture also states that to a born again Christian there is but “One God” the Father, and the original question before you chose to go on this tangent was whether or not Jesus was “a god”, and no, he is not.

Marty,

Was it Paul's intention to claim that Jesus was LITERALLY our ONLY lord…….. just to later tell us to also obey our earthly lords as well?

Was it Paul's intention to claim that Jesus was LITERALLY our ONLY lord…….. to the EXCLUSION of our Lord God who created us?

I assume your HONEST answer would be “NO”.  (I have to go on my assumption because you refuse to DIRECTLY answer the questions.)

So going by my assumption that you are indeed smart enough to realize that Paul DIDN'T intend to claim that Jesus was LITERALLY the ONLY lord in existence, I must also assume that your insistence that Jehovah is LITERALLY the ONLY mighty one (god) in existence comes from your own faulty reasoning.

I know this is true, because the scriptures teach about MANY gods and MANY lords.  I believe those scriptures, while you CHOOSE, of your own free will, NOT to believe them.

See if you can answer the question I just asked 2B:

Psalm 8:5
You have made them a little lower than the gods (elohim)
   and crowned them with glory and honor.

Marty, God made mankind a little lower than the gods.  Who are these gods that we were made lower than?

[Author]

Posts