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Hi T8,
That was good, and I honestly did give it a lot if thought. But yeah/nah.
It is simply arianism/Jehovah witness-ism – the need to insist that other gods do exist which are real, and powerful, and supernatural, so that Jesus can pre-exist as some kind of 'other god', or an angel.Yes, “gods” DO exist, but only so called. IMO. (They are called Gods, as a title)
So I'm with Paul when he states with certainty that: “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods”, and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.“
Don't get me wrong: I DO believe in the pre-existence of the son, but my belief in pre-existence is different than yours.
I believe that the son pre-existed as the “eternal spirit” of God, but it is not another God, It is a part of God, the Holy Spirit, which was in the sinless “son of man”.
I still have plenty to learn.Mike and terraricca seem to HATE this belief..I wonder why.
Quote (2besee @ June 07 2013,12:40) Hi T8,
That was good, and I honestly did give it a lot if thought. But yeah/nah.
It is simply arianism/Jehovah witness-ism – the need to insist that other gods do exist which are real, and powerful, and supernatural, so that Jesus can pre-exist as some kind of 'other god', or an angel.
Call it what you like, but it is written in the Bible. You only option then is fight scripture and even Christ for it was him who said, “ye are theos” and the scripture he quotes is, “ye are theos, you are sons of the Most High God”.I have no need to insist that others are called gods as you may think. Truly what benefit is there for me in doing so. I tell you no benefit. It's really just as simple as acknowledging that scripture says it, so I just accept it and change accordingly. Slap any label you like on me. It would be one of many. Atheists think I am an idiot for believing in God so you need to stand at the end of the queue if you want to say I am teaching Jehovah Witnessesism.
But are we really that far apart as you say, “Yes, 'gods' DO exist, but only so called. IMO. (They are called Gods, as a title)”. I agree. What is the problem is that not what I am saying too.
I have never been a JW, but I know they have some things right just as Atheists have some things right as do Catholics. I bet even Charles Manson has some things right, yet am I a Catholic or a follower of Charles Manson?
Slapping labels on people because they accept that something is written is counterproductive and carnal thinking 2b. I think you need to rethink your strategy. I could after all call you a Mormon because you believe in God. Why? Because Mormons believe in God too. See that? It is not a sound way to reason is it?
All I saw in your post was conviction and then your mind reasoning it away.
Quote (2besee @ June 07 2013,12:40) I believe that the son pre-existed as the “eternal spirit” of God, but it is not another God, It is a part of God, the Holy Spirit, which was in the sinless “son of man”.
I still have plenty to learn.Mike and terraricca seem to HATE this belief..I wonder why.
I don't believe that either.Jesus is not another God. There is only one God the Father.
Jesus can be described as theos in as far as he is certainly part of the counsel of God. In fact not just part of it, but the primary counsel of God is what I would say.
If we go back to the Devil example I gave, I would not say that the Prince of Persia or Legion is another Devil or Devil Chief, but certainly could be a devil or devils. Big difference here.
Jesus is not God. Myself, Mike, and Terr are not saying that Jesus is another God. We acknowledge him as the son, the messiah, and the Lord. Against this there is no accusation.
Yet when we acknowledge that Jesus, counsels both angelic and human can be called or titled, 'theos'. How is that wrong to acknowledge what is written and how the Greek uses words?
I don't understand where you are coming from.
T8,
Mike and terraricca DO say that Jesus is another god. They believe that John 1:1 says there are two gods.T8,
It is not a label as you call it, it is a name for a particular type of christology, and Jehovah Witnesses are the modern day believers of arianism. That is why i called it that.
I'm not using strategy, T8. I do not desire to change anyones thinking. I used to be an Arian type believer myself, and only God showed me something different when I asked, due to a desperate need for God's truth. People could of talked nonstop about their beliefs, it wouldn't have changed me from arianism. So, no, T8, you got that wrong. I am not a teacher, I am a seeker of truth, and that is all. People learn things in their own time as God wills, and I believe that nobody should be a teacher of a particular doctrine, because even if they have some truth – they will no doubt only be part way there, as I am.Do you agree that Jesus said, “ye are gods”?
And did he quote “ye are gods, ye are all sons of the Most High God”?
If I believe that and you do to, then how is it that you say I am Arian and you are not?
Explain because I am confused.
Quote (2besee @ June 05 2013,20:37) Mike, Psalm 96
“For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods. 5 For all the gods of the nations are idols………
The Hebrew word translated as “idols” in the version you used really means “worthless”, or “worthless thing”.Does this help you at all, 2B?
In the other passage you posted, Jehovah is definitely talking about man-made idols that people had set up over themselves as gods.
t8, you have done a wonderful job in the last three pages or so. You have told it like it is, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES. Some people just aren't ready to let go of the things they've been taught by men and accept the scriptures for what they truly teach. The claim that there LITERALLY exists only ONE “el” was never taught in scripture, and was ushered in by Trinitarians who KNOW Jesus is called a god in at least 4 scriptures. Their thinking was: If we convince people that there is LITERALLY only one “true” god, and all others are “false gods”, then we can equally convince people that Jesus must BE that ONE true god – since nobody is ever going to call their Lord a “false god”.
It has worked out better than they ever expected, because even people who don't believe in the trinity still fall for that lie. The scriptures, however, speak of “many gods, both in heaven and on earth”.
There are three questions that I've been asking and asking – questions that would end this silly debate once and for all – but no one wants to answer those questions.
1. In 1 Cor 8:6, was Paul teaching that Jesus was LITERALLY our ONLY lord? YES or NO?
2. Jehovah is called the Most High god OF gods in scripture. Who are some of these less high gods that Jehovah is the god OF?
3. How do you personally define the word “god” (“el”, “elohim”, “theos”) ?
If one was to honestly answer those questions, this topic could be honestly concluded in a heartbeat.
2b, look at how Origen interprets John 1:1.
Origen wrote in the early 200′s A.D.
“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written,
Quote (t8 @ June 07 2013,13:35) Do you agree that Jesus said, “ye are gods”? And did he quote “ye are gods, ye are all sons of the Most High God”?
If I believe that and you do to, then how is it that you say I am Arian and you are not?
Explain because I am confused.
T8,'Yes', Jesus did say “ye are gods, all sons of the most high” – but the quoted scripture ALSO said “I tell you you are men, and you will die like men” so that is not saying that they were 'supernatural heavenly Gods' is it? They were CALLED GODS – there is a difference, and that is what Paul was trying to say when he said that there ARE SO CALLED “gods”, when in truth, there is only one true God, the Father, and only one hope of being an everlasting son of God through the savior, Jesus Christ.
If you don't see the problem in this, Mike and Terraricca DO have a problem with this, for some reason. I'm just assuming that each of you are in agreement.
Mike seems to believe that there are many Gods in heaven and on earth (not just CALLED gods but actual Gods), and that Jesus pre-existed as one of those Gods.
I disagree.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2013,08:05) 2B, I'd be happy with direct and honest answers to those 3 questions.
MIKE2bee will not give your answers because if he does he will have to change his false belief about the scriptures and like he said HE DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS ,
PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES BECAUSE THEY READ IT ONES AND SO BELIEVE THAT THEY KNOW IT ALL ,OR THEY GO TO THE ETHERNET PICK UP SOME MEN MADE EXPLANATION AND GIVE IT AS AN ANSWER TO YOU ,T8 OR ME ,BECAUSE HE AS JUDGED THAT THAT MEN MADE QUOTE HE CAN BELIEVE ,BUT NOT THE SCRIPTURES ,FOR HIM SCRIPTURES ARE NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS WRITTEN BUT BY HIS OPINIONS HE MADE UP,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2013,10:25) Quote (942767 @ June 04 2013,19:50) Hi Mike: I do not call my boss at work “lord”……
When we obey his Word, we will be obeying our masters after the flesh.
No Marty,I don't believe many of us today call our boss “lord”. But in Paul's day, many Christians DID have earthly lords along with their heavenly lords Jesus and Jehovah, right?
So if I was a slave in Paul's day, I would have been instructed to obey and respect my earthly lord, my heavenly lord Jesus Christ, and my heavenly Lord God Almighty.
This is the scriptural truth of the matter, so there's no use in trying to get around it, Marty. Which leaves only one question:
How could Paul say Jesus was our “ONE lord” if he already knew some of his disciples would have three or more of them?
You have to decide for yourself if Paul was speaking LITERALLY about Jesus being our ONLY lord – or emphatically, in order to place Jesus as our HIGHEST lord next to God Almighty Himself. In light of the evidence, which one do you think?
Hi Mike:I have already showed you how. The scripture states to a born again Christian there is but One God, the Father, and “one Lord” the Lord Jesus.
And the scripture also states that to a born again Christian there is but “One God” the Father, and the original question before you chose to go on this tangent was whether or not Jesus was “a god”, and no, he is not.
It is the scripture that defines what I believe. “One God” means “One God” to me, how about to you. Do you want to argue with the scripture?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ June 07 2013,08:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2013,10:25) Quote (942767 @ June 04 2013,19:50) Hi Mike: I do not call my boss at work “lord”……
When we obey his Word, we will be obeying our masters after the flesh.
No Marty,I don't believe many of us today call our boss “lord”. But in Paul's day, many Christians DID have earthly lords along with their heavenly lords Jesus and Jehovah, right?
So if I was a slave in Paul's day, I would have been instructed to obey and respect my earthly lord, my heavenly lord Jesus Christ, and my heavenly Lord God Almighty.
This is the scriptural truth of the matter, so there's no use in trying to get around it, Marty. Which leaves only one question:
How could Paul say Jesus was our “ONE lord” if he already knew some of his disciples would have three or more of them?
You have to decide for yourself if Paul was speaking LITERALLY about Jesus being our ONLY lord – or emphatically, in order to place Jesus as our HIGHEST lord next to God Almighty Himself. In light of the evidence, which one do you think?
Hi Mike:I have already showed you how. The scripture states to a born again Christian there is but One God, the Father, and “one Lord” the Lord Jesus.
And the scripture also states that to a born again Christian there is but “One God” the Father, and the original question before you chose to go on this tangent was whether or not Jesus was “a god”, and no, he is not.
It is the scripture that defines what I believe. “One God” means “One God” to me, how about to you. Do you want to argue with the scripture?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyso all those verse are lies ;
DT 10:17 “ For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
PS 136:2 Give thanks to the God of gods,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
DA 2:47 The king answered Daniel and said, “Surely your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, since you have been able to reveal this mystery.”
DA 11:36 “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.Mike,
Quote 1. In 1 Cor 8:6, was Paul teaching that Jesus was LITERALLY our ONLY lord? YES or NO? Jesus is OUR only lord as in spiritually. Yes, we may address people as lords but that is only words and titles.
Quote 2. Jehovah is called the Most High god OF gods in scripture. Who are some of these less high gods that Jehovah is the god OF? They are so called gods. God is just a title. There is only one true God.
Quote 3. How do you personally define the word “god” (“el”, “elohim”, “theos”) ? So called gods are mighty ones, those who are godlike or powerful in who they are, and many gods are just mans invention. Again, there is only one who is the creator and the source of all.
Does that answer your questions adequately?
Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2013,13:30) Quote (942767 @ June 07 2013,08:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2013,10:25) Quote (942767 @ June 04 2013,19:50) Hi Mike: I do not call my boss at work “lord”……
When we obey his Word, we will be obeying our masters after the flesh.
No Marty,I don't believe many of us today call our boss “lord”. But in Paul's day, many Christians DID have earthly lords along with their heavenly lords Jesus and Jehovah, right?
So if I was a slave in Paul's day, I would have been instructed to obey and respect my earthly lord, my heavenly lord Jesus Christ, and my heavenly Lord God Almighty.
This is the scriptural truth of the matter, so there's no use in trying to get around it, Marty. Which leaves only one question:
How could Paul say Jesus was our “ONE lord” if he already knew some of his disciples would have three or more of them?
You have to decide for yourself if Paul was speaking LITERALLY about Jesus being our ONLY lord – or emphatically, in order to place Jesus as our HIGHEST lord next to God Almighty Himself. In light of the evidence, which one do you think?
Hi Mike:I have already showed you how. The scripture states to a born again Christian there is but One God, the Father, and “one Lord” the Lord Jesus.
And the scripture also states that to a born again Christian there is but “One God” the Father, and the original question before you chose to go on this tangent was whether or not Jesus was “a god”, and no, he is not.
It is the scripture that defines what I believe. “One God” means “One God” to me, how about to you. Do you want to argue with the scripture?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyso all those verse are lies ;
DT 10:17 “ For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
PS 136:2 Give thanks to the God of gods,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
DA 2:47 The king answered Daniel and said, “Surely your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, since you have been able to reveal this mystery.”
DA 11:36 “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.
No, Pierre those verses are not lies, but the way that you interpret them may not be correct.Are the verses of scripture below, lies?
Quote 1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Love in Christ,
MartyMaybe to you, Pierre, and maybe also to Mike and T8 there is more than “One God”, and more than “One Lord”, but the scripture states to me as “a born again Christian, there is but “One God”, the Father, and “One Lord”, Jesus, my Lord”. I know that there are many that are called “gods” and that God called the Judges to whom the Word of God came “gods”, but he called them that for a reason, and that was because they ruled as his representatives, but no, that does not make them “a god”. And I know that God called “His Son” “God”, because of his position as his representative as head of the church, and because Jesus is the express image of his person, but does that make Jesus “a god” or “a God”.
“One God” to me means exactly that and that is who I worship.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ June 07 2013,08:57) Maybe to you, Pierre, and maybe also to Mike and T8 there is more than “One God”, and more than “One Lord”, but the scripture states to me as “a born again Christian, there is but “One God”, the Father, and “One Lord”, Jesus, my Lord”. I know that there are many that are called “gods” and that God called the Judges to whom the Word of God came “gods”, but he called them that for a reason, and that was because they ruled as his representatives, but no, that does not make them “a god”. And I know that God called “His Son” “God”, because of his position as his representative as head of the church, and because Jesus is the express image of his person, but does that make Jesus “a god” or “a God”. “One God” to me means exactly that and that is who I worship.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyReligion ,does this to you,I never said that there is more than one almighty God and father of all, you have asumed that but we Mike and t8 never said anything other than that,
What we acknowledge is that scriptures tells that their are other gods ,and they are not false gods just not like God almighty the father,so now you also agree to this truth,this is why he is called “The God of gods “
Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2013,15:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2013,08:05) 2B, I'd be happy with direct and honest answers to those 3 questions.
MIKE2bee will not give your answers because if he does he will have to change his false belief about the scriptures and like he said HE DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS ,
PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES BECAUSE THEY READ IT ONES AND SO BELIEVE THAT THEY KNOW IT ALL ,OR THEY GO TO THE ETHERNET PICK UP SOME MEN MADE EXPLANATION AND GIVE IT AS AN ANSWER TO YOU ,T8 OR ME ,BECAUSE HE AS JUDGED THAT THAT MEN MADE QUOTE HE CAN BELIEVE ,BUT NOT THE SCRIPTURES ,FOR HIM SCRIPTURES ARE NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS WRITTEN BUT BY HIS OPINIONS HE MADE UP,
Are you feeling okay terroricca?
If i saw you on the street, yelling like that at people, I would be quite concerned.
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