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…but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. “These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. “But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.
those scriptures have been fulfilled and in some way are still going
The seventh and eighth are part of the Beast that arose out of the Great Sea. Unless you think the Beast will not go into destruction, but survives till the end of the Millennium and is then destroyed.
8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
I have explain this ;the beast dies during the millennium and so “is not” but at the second resurrection it will “come up” out of the abyss(the grave )for those that come back in the second resurrection will be judged by those from the first resurrection preaching ,but not all will accept it and those are the ones that are making the beast come to existence again and so become Gog of Magog that will be destroyed by the fire of heaven (it is all about people groups formation)
I will look into that possibility, but my first thoughts are that there is nothing in scripture that specifically states that the eighth king will arise in the Millennium.
Further, the Beast that we know of, the succession of empires based around the Great Sea ceased to exist after the Ottoman Empire.
Those that claim that the Beast is still alive (which you must believe) point to empires that are not geographically located around the Great Sea.
I am sorry but i did not meant within the millennium but just before at the end of this age ,so the seventh will be destroyed before entering in the millennium,
it is the eight one that will come with the second resurrection and not last long
(Those that claim that the Beast is still alive (which you must believe) point to empires that are not geographically located around the Great Sea.)
do you talking about the six head ? if so I don’t believe it still exist we are with the seventh now or in transition to be in it ,the geography as no longer to do anything with it for the seventh is world wide ,not local
Okay, so there were 6 kings in succession from what I can glean from your view. How long is it before the 7th king? And why is the beast dead now?
Why are all the kingdoms in succession, but stopped now. Your view is that they stop between the 7th and 8th. But they are stopped now if you believe that Rome is the 6th.
Unless you can show me the 7th kingdom that came after the Roman Empire (6th) and still exists today. I don’t think you will be able to show me this though.
Let’s recap that view then,
Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medio Persia, Greece, Rome, Western Civilization.
vs
Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medio Persia, Greece, Rome, Ottoman (Islamic Empire).I guess we are in agreement that there were a succession of empires from Egypt to Rome.
Your view says that Rome created the Western World or was influenced by it and I guess that America by extension of that is part of this Western World.
Of course the view in this topic as you know is that Rome was conquered by the Ottomans Empire. So lets make a comparison with these two views.
The weakness that the Western World view has is as follows:
- The West wasn’t located around the Great Sea as were all other empires.
- It didn’t happen in succession after (Western) Rome fell.
- This view ignores the Ottoman Empire which existed for centuries before the West and became powerful. Much of the Wests technology and knowledge came from the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire was like any other empire in the region. Ignoring it because it doesn’t fit a theory doesn’t make sense to me.
The strength that the Ottoman Empire view has is as follows:
- It was located around the Great Sea as were the other empires described as being part of the Beast and represented in the statue that Daniel saw.
- The Roman Empire (6th) didn’t fall as proponents of the above view think. It was only the Western leg that fell. The Roman Empire continued for centuries in the East with its capital in Constantinople. Many migrated from the West to the East. Citizens continued to be called Roman citizens. The two legs of iron being very descriptive of this.
- By extension of the above point, the Ottomans succeeded the Roman Empire (Byzantine era) in the same fashion that other empires succeeded their predecessor, i.e., by invasion.
- Scripture says ‘iron mixed with clay’ are the toes of the statue that represents these empires and in particular after the legs of iron (Rome). The word ‘mixed’ in Aramaic is ‘arab’. They mixed with their seed with Roman citizens, but they didn’t really mix well as iron doesn’t mix with clay.
- This Islamic Empire obviously follow Islam and by that definition they deny the Father and the Son. For this reason, Islam and Muhammad are Antichrist by the Biblical definition.
- After the Ottoman Empire, the Beast from the Great Sea no longer existed. (It died.) But the rise of Radical Islam could easily resurrect this empire bringing about an eighth empire that is of the seventh. Further, with Islamic immigration outpacing European birth rates, Europe is in danger of becoming Islamic itself in a matter of years to decades. So it could be the eighth kingdom which is of the seven. It could even be that 19 kings in Europe join with an Islamic Caliphate in years to come. Or perhaps 10 Middle Eastern countries form an alliance with the Beast.
For me, the fact that the Ottoman Empire succeeded the Roman Empire is huge. I don’t see the point in ignoring it. It is history and was significant.
As I have said before, I remain open minded to all views and new ones. I certainly am not going to throw away history especially when it seems to match the biblical description in prophecy.
the Roman empire was never over come by the ottomans in 732 ad the french stopped them and they have to go back, later they were send back to the ocean ,sure they took for a moment a piece of Rome ,but that’s all they ever had ,
now every empire that was taken over left some of his into the new empire that came to replace it ,
the Rome just has scriptures says he disintegrate without the hand of men ,just collapses, in time ;
and so the new took time to be formed into what would become a people nation ,by the people for the people a democracy
after a couple big wars the ottoman was literally destroyed , and it will not come back ,its religion is a 7 century ideology
it has shown that it is backward ,and at best it will create a world wide civil war ,but i have doubts about that ,for only a few of them want really to die with a gun in their hand ,
A History Lesson
the Roman empire was never over come by the ottomans in 732 ad the french stopped them and they have to go back, later they were send back to the ocean ,sure they took for a moment a piece of Rome ,but that’s all they ever had ,
Let’s look at the facts at least according to recorded history:
Roman Empire
The Byzantine Empire or Eastern Roman Empire was the predominantly Greek-speaking continuation of the eastern part of the Roman Empire during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Its capital city was Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul), originally founded as Byzantium. It survived the fragmentation and fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD and continued to exist for an additional thousand years until it fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 under the reign of Mehmed the Conqueror. During most of its existence, the empire was the most powerful economic, cultural, and military force in Europe. Both “Byzantine Empire” and “Eastern Roman Empire” are historiographical terms created AFTER the end of the realm; its citizens continued to refer to their empire as the Roman Empire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_EmpireOttoman Empire
After conquests in the Balkans by Murad I between 1362 and 1389, the Ottoman sultanate was transformed into a transcontinental empire and claimant to the caliphate. The Ottomans ended the Byzantine Empire with the 1453 conquest of Constantinople by Mehmed the Conqueror.
During the 16th and 17th centuries, in particular at the height of its power under the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent, the Ottoman Empire was a multinational, multilingual empire controlling much of Southeast Europe,Western Asia, the Caucasus, North Africa, and the Horn of Africa. At the beginning of the 17th century the empire contained 32 provinces and numerous vassal states. Some of these were later absorbed into the Ottoman Empire, while others were granted various types of autonomy during the course of centuries.
With Constantinople as its capital and control of lands around the Mediterranean basin, the Ottoman Empire was at the centre of interactions between the Eastern and Western worlds for six centuries. Following a long period of military setbacks against European powers, the Ottoman Empire gradually declined into the late nineteenth century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_EmpireIf you care to dispute this, then you are on the wrong side of recorded or accepted history.
Was the Eastern Roman Empire part of the Roman Empire?
Why is the Roman Empire characterized as two legs of iron in Daniel’s vision?
You need to ask yourself these questions.
When you have the answer, then you will realise that another empire succeeded the Roman Empire and that it lasted for centuries, ruled the Middle East and Eastern Europe, and lasted for 500 or so years.
Most people in the West are ignorant of this. They think their part of the world is the most important, and that Arabs were incapable of having any empire of significance. How wrong they are.
I don’t dispute history but did the Roman empire lost with the lost of Constantinople ?No,tell me did the calypha destroyed the Roman empire or just destroyed a leg but tell me when the western world destroyed the caliphate was it totally destroyed ? yes it was well destroyed and now some want to resurrected ? the only thing that was left from the caliphate was its religion /ideology and that is what is left of the roman empire as well
one more thing check the roman empire conquered land and see if the caliphate have it bigger ,and tell me when did islam conquered western europe and russia ,
with a saber on the neck many have conquered why did they degraded in wisdom ?
but why did
Christians face being wiped out from the Middle East within TEN YEARS
Christians face being wiped out from the Middle East within ten years as increasing numbers are killed by Muslim extremists or forced to flee persecution, Catholic aid groups have warned.
The alarming rate of decline means the religion could vanish in some areas in just five years unless the world steps in, says the international Catholic charity Aid to the Church in Need.
In Iraq, where Christians are being butchered in mass executions by the Islamic State, their number has plunged from one million to just 275,000 in the last 12 years alone.
The study says the faith is also facing increasing pressure in Saudi Arabia, Iran and other Gulf nations, adding that the Church is being ‘silenced and driven out of its ancient biblical heartland’.
In a report titled Persecuted & Forgotten?, the British-based group says: ‘At a time when the numbers of displaced and refugees have hit an all-time high, Islamists groups — ISIS foremost — are carrying out religiously motivated ethnic cleaning of Christians.
‘In parts of the Middle East — particularly in Syria and Iraq — the crisis is so severe that barring significant interventions on the part of world powers, the Christian presence may disappear completely within a decade or even sooner. ‘
The picture is just as bleak in Syria, which is plagued by civil war, ISIS atrocities and separate bombing campaigns from the West and Russia.
ISIS video show execution of 30 Ethiopia Christians, Libya
Revelation 6:9-11
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.I don’t dispute history but did the Roman empire lost with the lost of Constantinople ?
the Roman empire was never over come by the ottomans in 732 ad the french stopped them and they have to go back, later they were send back to the ocean ,sure they took for a moment a piece of Rome ,but that’s all they ever had ,
The Roman Empire had a western and eastern leg. If the emperor moved the capital from west to east, then how is that not the same empire. The citizens considered themselves Roman citizens and it continued for another 1000 years. Yes you read that right. 1000 years. It was eventually overtaken by the Ottoman Empire that ruled for 500 years. Unless history is a conspiracy that never happened, then this is fact. You can ignore it all you like, but as is believed by many, men do not learn from history. Probably because they ignore it.
The Roman Empire did not fall. What fell was the Western Roman Empire or western leg of the Roman Empire.
If one part of an empire falls, then that does not mean the whole empire fell. The Roman Empire had two legs and the statue in Daniel had two legs of iron. If one leg fell then what about the other one? No point in ignoring it. Both legs were part of the statue right and in history both the east and the west were the Roman Empire?
And why two legs? Because the empire was so large it wasn’t feasible anymore for it to be ruled from one central location.
The Roman Empire, at its height (c. 117 CE), was the most extensive political and social structure in western civilization. By 285 CE the empire had grown too vast to be ruled from the central government at Rome and so was divided by Emperor Diocletian into a Western and an Eastern Empire.
The Roman Empire began when Augustus Caesar became the first emperor of Rome (31 BCE) and ended, in the west, when the last Roman emperor, Romulus Augustulus, was deposed by the Germanic King Odoacer (476 CE). In the east, it continued as the Byzantine Empire until the death of Constantine XI and the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 CE. The influence of the Roman Empire on western civilization was profound in its lasting contributions to virtually every aspect of western culture.
http://www.ancient.eu/Roman_Empire/
NOTE: The term ‘Byzantine’ was added by historians later to describe this phase of the Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire was still the Roman Empire and the people were known as Roman citizens.
Do you believe this history? If it is wrong, what part is wrong in your view?
what about the democracy of the western world this would give you a good description of the 7 th
Not located around the Great Sea and also is not an empire. Rather a group of republics.
Rome began as a republic and eventually became an empire. The west has never been a single empire.
However, there was the British Empire and the so-called American Empire. But the West is not these exclusively just as Asia is/was not exclusively the Chinese Empire.
There have been many empires and powerful nations that are not part of the Beast. The Mongol Empire. Chinese Empire, Russian Empire etc.
We put so much importance on the West that is seems almost offensive to some western Christians that they are not mentioned in scripture or part of the great beast. Then the belittle the Middle East as a backwater of some kind. This is a form of arrogance and ignorance and makes many blind to prophecy IMO. The Bible is a Middle East book and mostly about the Middle East and set in the Middle East. Jesus was from the Middle East and Jerusalem is in the Middle East.
The Bible doesn’t focus on other parts of the world such as Oceania, Asia, South America, etc, even though such areas may get a direct or indirect mention.
At the moment, the Middle East is largely Muslim. They deny the Father and Son which identifies the Antichrist spirit. This is significant in my view.
Egyptian Christians Were Calling for Jesus During Execution by ISIS in Libya
A number of the 21 Coptic Christians who were recently shown being beheaded in a horrific video by Islamic State militants in Libya were reportedly whispering the name of Jesus as their heads were being hacked off their bodies.
Bishop Antonios Aziz Mina of Giza, who called the 5-minute video released by ISIS Sunday “diabolical,” told the Fides news agency that although the militants intended to “spread terror” through the massacre, they actually made the men martyrs for their faith.
“In the moment of their barbaric execution,” he explained, some of the Christians were mouthing the words “Lord, Jesus Christ.”
“The name of Jesus was the last word on their lips,” said Mina.”
The video of the beheadings titled “A Message Signed With Blood to the Nations of the Cross” shows the Christian men being led like sheep along the Coast of Wilayat Tarabulus by the Mediterranean Sea. The masked terrorists then line them up along the beach and force them to their knees.
A caption on the video describes them as “the people of the cross, the followers of the hostile Egyptian Church.”
A man speaking English then comes on praising Allah and threatening mayhem. He explains that the beheadings are in retaliation for Osama bin Laden’s death by U.S. special forces in Pakistan in 2011. The video also suggested that the beheadings might also be due to violence between Coptic Christians and Muslims that same year over a Coptic woman who reportedly converted to Islam but was held captive by her family.
The men are then shown, some appearing to pray silently. They are then placed face-down on the beach and beheaded.
“This filthy blood is what awaits you, in revenge for Camelia and her sisters,” said a caption on the video.
The video ends with an image of the Christians’ blood flowing in the Mediterranean Sea.
In a statement Tuesday, Pope Francis condemned the killings as senseless extremism.
“Be they Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, or Lutherans, it does not matter. They are Christians, their blood is the same, their blood confesses [their faith in] Christ,” said the pope.
“Today, I read about the execution of those 21 or 22 Coptic Christians,” he added. “Their only words were, ‘Jesus, help me!’ They were executed for nothing more than the fact that they were Christian. The blood of our Christian sisters and brothers is testimony that cries out.
t8
the mediterranean sea (great sea) as nothing to do with anything in God’s world Jesus came and all things are now in judgement before God even satan is judged and all those that live like he does meaning against God will ,Satan will never win against God ,yet that is what you try to imply ,
As we are all aware by now, ISIS has taken their war to Europe.
I just read an article that said one of the terrorists in France was a Syrian refugee. And how many refugees and Muslim’s live in Europe? Millions and counting.
While Islam has declared war on the world, we are seeing the fruits of that now more than ever.
Think ISIS executions in Europe and a growing Islamic influence.
Islam declares that ‘God has no son’. This is how we identify the Antichrist spirit is it not?
These terrorist events are significant IMO. Some here think it is all insignificant because they have bought into another view.
I know that terrarica and kerwin think this means nothing in the scheme of things. But with respect, I think you guys are wrong on this.
The problem with subscribing wholeheartedly to an end-time view is such people tend to ignore all that doesn’t agree with it.
Whereas we should be watching. No one has all the answers. We should be like good servants and watch and wait for the return of our Lord.
We should read the signs of the times. We understand the four seasons well enough, but many are unable to determine the signs in our day, just the same as the days when the son of man walked among us.
Subscribing to an end-time view often means that people ignore events that may well be significant. It narrows your view too much
Personally, there are two things that I cannot ignore.
The Islamic Empire conquered the Roman Empire and seems to be resurrecting.
Second, that empire’s religion by biblical definition is Antichrist.This has to be significant one way or another.
Why would scripture tell us that the Antichrist spirit denies the Father and the Son and then see the rise of a religion that has this as one of its tenets. A religion that covers one-quarter of the world that worship a God who has no son. Does Yahweh have a son? Does Satan have a son? Figure it out for yourself.
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