Islam

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 27 2009,17:03)

Let me ask you and please answer. If God wanted to destroty your soul could Jesus prevent God from doing so?

and if Jesus wanted to destroy your soul could God prevent him from doin so?

WJ,

perhaps you would like to answer the question I asked nick above.

July 3, 2009 at 7:11 pm#181113

NickHassan

Participant

Hi DD,
Now you cannot find any biblical justiificAation for your human religion you want to try working from logic?

DOES YOUR GOD FOLLOW WEAK HUMAN LOGIC?

July 4, 2009 at 3:59 am#181114

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,07:11)

Hi DD,
Now you cannot find any biblical justiificAation for your human religion you want to try working from logic?

DOES YOUR GOD FOLLOW WEAK HUMAN LOGIC?

I just realized you may have meant BD instead of DD but it's interesting that you could not answer the question put to you. That wasn't based on logic it was based on Spiritual reality.

July 4, 2009 at 4:25 am#181115

NickHassan

Participant

Hi BD,
We are here to find truth in scripture which is a far better source than the thoughts of men.
There are very philosophy sites

July 4, 2009 at 4:35 am#181116

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:25)

Hi BD,
We are here to find truth in scripture which is a far better source than the thoughts of men.
There are very philosophy sites

It's not philosophy either you believe the God is Almighty or you don't. I know that He is.

July 4, 2009 at 4:58 am#181117

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 27 2009,01:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2009,08:19)

Hi BD,
There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.
The rest is folly.

So Jesus is greater than God?

Let me ask you Nick and please answer. If God wanted to destroty your soul could Jesus prevent God from doing so?

and if Jesus wanted to destroy your soul could God prevent him from doin so?

Hi BD

You are asking the wrong person for I believe that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God.

So the answer is they are one and always work as one!

Let me ask you this…

Can you see at this moment that Jesus has “All Power and All Authority” and that he is not even subject to the Father at this time?

“When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28

Go ahead and read the context.

When all things are under Jesus feet then he will be subject to the Father so that God may be all in all.

However at this time we see that Jesus is also “all in all”.

July 4, 2009 at 5:10 am#181118

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2009,16:58)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 27 2009,01:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2009,08:19)

Hi BD,
There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.
The rest is folly.

So Jesus is greater than God?

Let me ask you Nick and please answer. If God wanted to destroty your soul could Jesus prevent God from doing so?

and if Jesus wanted to destroy your soul could God prevent him from doin so?

Hi BD

You are asking the wrong person for I believe that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God.

So the answer is they are one and always work as one!

Let me ask you this…

Can you see at this moment that Jesus has “All Power and All Authority” and that he is not even subject to the Father at this time?

“When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28

Go ahead and read the context.

When all things are under Jesus feet then he will be subject to the Father so that God may be all in all.

However at this time we see that Jesus is also “all in all”.

1 Corinthians 15(King James Version)

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

You somehow missed this verse, let me give the literal translation before you try to tell me about the greek language

1 Corinthians 15:27-29 (Young's Literal Translation)

27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,

In other words “all things” does not include God(Our Father) On this point to be honest you must concede the point or disprove the point.

Thinker was honest and conceded on his take of a certain scripture so for the sake of Godliness and truth you should do likewise.

July 4, 2009 at 5:12 am#181119

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,16:35)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:25)

Hi BD,
We are here to find truth in scripture which is a far better source than the thoughts of men.
There are very philosophy sites

It's not philosophy either you believe the God is Almighty or you don't. I know that He is.

Hi BD,
Does God being almighty mean you can say He can do whatever you think He will?

July 4, 2009 at 5:13 am#181120

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2009,16:58)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 27 2009,01:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2009,08:19)

Hi BD,
There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.
The rest is folly.

So Jesus is greater than God?

Let me ask you Nick and please answer. If God wanted to destroty your soul could Jesus prevent God from doing so?

and if Jesus wanted to destroy your soul could God prevent him from doin so?

Hi BD

You are asking the wrong person for I believe that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God.

So the answer is they are one and always work as one!

Let me ask you this…

Can you see at this moment that Jesus has “All Power and All Authority” and that he is not even subject to the Father at this time?

“When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28

Go ahead and read the context.

When all things are under Jesus feet then he will be subject to the Father so that God may be all in all.

However at this time we see that Jesus is also “all in all”.

WJ,
How many wills does this one God have? The scriptures show that Jesus has a seperate Will than that of the Father, what do you say?

July 27, 2009 at 4:10 am#139030

Participant

Hi all

Does Islam and the Qur’an have anything to do with Biblical Christianity?

In another thread bodhitharta states…

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 26 2009,12:50)

This is interesting. I tell you that Mohammad has come to further reveal the truth and give you the meat that couldn’t be beared at the time of Paul and you say it’s impossible but you readily dismiss the teachings of Jesus.

Found here

He claims that the Qur’an came as another direct revelation from God whom he calls Allah through a prophet named Mohammad.

Worse he claims that the Qur’an corrects the Biblical Sciptures.

However bodhitharta contradicts not only Biblical teachings but the teachings of the Qur’an.

So I encourage all to check the Qur’an out and see that BD has made up his own religion based on two books that have nothing to do with each other.

The following site gives us some information about Islam and the Qur’an that shows the intent of Islam is to destroy all including Christians.

The Qur’an Says that People of Other Religions are to be Violently Punished in This World

Allah himself fights against the unbelievers (9:30), so why should Muslims not fight in his cause rather than in the cause of evil (4:76)?

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)

Strive hard (Jihad) against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. (66:9, See also 9:73)

Muslims are to expect a reward in this life as well as the next (4:134), so it makes sense that unbelievers should be punished in this life as well:

…He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. For them is a penalty in the life of this world, but harder, truly, is the penalty of the Hereafter… (13:33:34)

All beings on heaven and earth will be forced to bow down to Allah, either willingly or by force:

And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly (13:15)

Those who resist Islam will be humiliated:

Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be among those most humiliated. (58:20 – The context for this verse is the eviction of the Jewish tribes of Medina and the confiscation of their wealth, land, and children by Muhammad).

Non-Muslims are to be fought until religion is only for Allah:

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah… (8:39 – “Persecution” in this context means resistance to Islam – defined in the prior verse as an unwillingness to believe (see verse 38). This passage was “revealed” following a battle that Muhammad deliberately provoked. Verse 2:193 essentially says the same thing and was also “revealed” at a time when the Muslims were not under physical attack).

Non-Muslims are to be encroached on and pressured by the Muslims:

See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? (13:41 – See also 21:44)

And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things. (33:27, See also Bukhari 53:392)

Allah will grant Muslims authority and power over all other people:

Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion… (24:55)

(Muhammad’s companions continued to self-fulfill this prophecy with an aggressive and senseless military expansion that left a trail of bodies from Spain to India).

Allah provides instructions to Muslims for dealing with unbelievers who are unwilling to accept Islamic rule:

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (8:12-13)

Other verses of violence may be found here.

Conclusion

The pattern of violence and aggressive disregard for human suffering that is persistent in Muslim history and contemporary attitude toward non-believers reflects the message of the Qur’an, which is one of personal superiority and arrogance.

In our modern world, Muslim dominance is characterized by the oppression and discrimination of non-Muslims, while Muslim minorities within larger societies are distinguished by varying degrees of petulant demand, discord and armed rebellion. Few Muslims are uncomfortable with this blatant double standard, in which Islam either plays the victim or unapologetically victimizes others, depending on its position of power – and the reason is obvious.

Islam is a supremacist ideology in which the role of non-believers is subordinate to the position of Muslims. Those who resist Islamic rule are to be fought until they are fully humiliated and forced to acknowledge their inferior status either by converting to Islam or by paying a poll-tax and otherwise accepting the subjugation of their own beliefs.

There is simply no other religion on earth that draws such sharp distinction between its own members and others, or spends as much time condemning and dehumanizing those who merely choose not to follow its dogma.

So much about Islamic terrorism and the general indifference of the broader Muslim community toward the violence makes sense only against this dual nature of Islam. Yes, the apologists are correct in saying that Islam teaches love and kindness, but they fail to add that this applies only to the treatment of those within the Muslim community. Loyalty to one’s own identity group is valued above all else and empathy for those outside the faith is optional at best – and even explicitly discouraged in places.

If this is a “misunderstanding” of Islam by modern-day “radicals,” then it is an error that the founder of Islam made as well. In Muhammad’s time, non-Muslims were put to death merely for speaking out against the new religion and its self-proclaimed prophet. Likewise, the Jews of Qurayza were summarily rounded-up and executed on Muhammad’s order, even though they had not even fought in battle. Since the life of a non-Muslim is cheap, actual physical harm to a Muslim is not necessary to justify murder according to the example of Muhammad.

The Qur’an meets every criterion by which we define hate speech. Not only does the message inspire loathing and disregard for others, but the text mandates the superiority of Islam, even if the means of establishment are by force.

In his later years, Muhammad directed military campaigns to subjugate other tribes and religions, “inviting” them to Islam at the point of a sword and forcing them to pay tribute nonetheless. He set in motion the aggressive military campaigns that made war against all five major world religions in just the first few decades following his death.

Islam incorporates the ultimate devaluation of non-Muslims in the most obvious way by teaching that while a Muslim may be punished wi
th death for murdering a fellow Muslim (Bukhari 83:17), no Muslim can be put to death for killing a non-Muslim (Bukhari 83:50). The Qur’an’s “Law of Equality,” which assigns human value and rights based on gender, religion and status, is the polar opposite of equality in the sense intended by Western liberal tradition, which ideally respects no such distinction.

One can always find apologists willing to dismiss the harsh rhetoric of the Qur’an with creative interpretation, tortuous explanation or outright denial, but their words and deeds almost always belie a concern for Islam’s image that does not extend to Islam’s victims – at least not with the same sense of urgency – thus proving the point.

Of course, there are also exceptional Muslims who do not agree with Islamic supremacy and sincerely champion secularism and respect for all people. Some even find verses or fragments of such to support their independent beliefs. But, for these people, the Qur’an as a whole will always be a constant challenge, since it explicitly teaches the distinct and inferior status of non-Muslims Source

BD has denied that Jesus died for our sins and his religion teaches that also. I pray that God will open his eyes to see that without Jesus death, burial and resurrection he will be found naked at the judgement in the last day.

July 27, 2009 at 4:38 am#139040

Participant

Hi ALL

Here is some more information on Islam and a ton of scriptures from the Quran that BD believes is a later revelation from the God of the Bible.

VIOLENCE

Question:
Does the Qur'an really contain dozens of verses promoting violence?

Summary Answer:
The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

These verses are mostly open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text (as are nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence – and Muhammad's own martial legacy – has left a trail of blood and tears across world history.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of “persecution” (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until “religion is for Allah.” The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

Qur'an (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”

Qur'an (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

Qur'an (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Qur'an (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”. This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Qur'an (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Qur'an (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”

Qur'an (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Qur'an (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-”

This passage not only criticizes “peaceful” Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that “Jihad” doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).

Qur'an (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Pursuing an injured and retreating enemy is not an act of self-defense.

Qur'an (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

Qur'an (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Qur'an (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end.”

Qur'an (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah” From the historical context we know that the “persecution” spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj.

Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until “religion is only for Allah.”

Qur'an (8:57) – “If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.”

Qur'an (8:59-60) – “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.”

Qur'an (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”

According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.

Qur&#3
9;an (9:14) – “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…”

Qur'an (9:20) – “Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.” The “striving” spoken of here is Jihad.

Qur'an (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” “People of the Book” refers to Christians and Jews.

This was one of the final “revelations” from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Qur'an (9:30) – “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”

Qur'an (9:38-39) – “O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.”

This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Qur'an (9:41) – “Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.” See also the verse that follows (9:42) – “If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them”

This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Qur'an (9:73) – “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”

Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Qur'an (9:88) – “But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.”

Qur'an (9:111) – “Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”

Qur'an (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”

Qur'an (21:44) – “We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?”

Qur'an (25:52) – “Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).”

“Strive against” is Jihad – obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Qur'an (47:4) – “So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,”

Qur'an (47:35) – “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: “have the upper hand”) for Allah is with you,”

Qur'an (48:17) – “There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.”

Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?

Qur'an (48:29) – “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves”

Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.

Qur'an (61:4) – “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way” Religion of Peace, indeed!

Qur'an (61:10-12) – “O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity.”

This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Qur'an (66:9) – “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.”

The root word of “Jihad” is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include “hypocrites” – those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:177) – Allah's Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”

Bukhari (52:256) – The Prophet… was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).”

In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

Bukhari (52:220) – Allah's Apostle said… 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Abu Dawud (14:2526) – The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

Abu Dawud (14:2527) – The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) – the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) – Allah's Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah

Muslim (1:149) – “Abu Dharr reported: I said: Mes
senger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause…”

Muslim (20:4645) – “…He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!”

Muslim (20:4696) – “the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'”

Muslim (19:4321-4323) – Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: “They are of them (meaning the enemy).”

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, “Kill any Jew who falls under your power.” Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us” The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Ibn Ishaq: 327 – “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq: 990 – Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.

Ibn Ishaq: 992 – “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.” Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

Additional Notes:

Other than the fact that Muslims haven't killed every non-Muslim under their domain, there is very little else that they can point to as proof that theirs is a peaceful, tolerant religion. Few verses in the Qur'an can be construed to fit the contemporary virtues of religious tolerance and universal brotherhood, and those that do are earlier “Meccan” verses that are obviously abrogated by later ones. Small wonder that Muslim apologists spend a lot of time speaking of the “risks” of trying to interpret the Qur'an without their “assistance.”

Far from being mere history or theological construct, the violent verses of the Qur'an have played a key role in the many massacres in Muslim history, including the brutal slaughter of tens of millions of Hindus for five centuries beginning around 1000 AD with Mahmud of Ghazni's bloody conquest, including the massacre of those who defending their temples from destruction. Buddhism was very nearly wiped off the Indian subcontinent. Judaism and Christianity met the same fate (albeit more slowly) in areas conquered by Muslim armies, including the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe, including today's Turkey. Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of a proud Persian people is despised by Muslims and barely survives in modern Iran.

So ingrained is violence in the religion that Islam has never really stopped being at war, either with other religions or with itself.

Muhammad was a military leader, laying siege to towns, massacring the men, raping their women, enslaving their children, and taking what was once the property of others for his own. On several occasions he rejected offers of surrender from the besieged inhabitants and killed those whom he could take prisoner. He inspired his followers to battle even when they did not feel it was right to fight, threatening them with Hell if they did not, promising them slaves and booty if they did. Muhammad allowed his men to rape traumatized women captured in battle.

It is important to emphasize that Muslim armies waged aggressive campaigns, and it was the companions of Muhammad who made the most dramatic military gains in the decades following his death. The principle set in motion early on was that the civilian population of a town was to be destroyed (ie. men executed, women and children taken as slaves) if they defended themselves. Although modern Muslim apologists often claim that Islam only attacked in self-defense, this is not only an oxymoron, but it is flatly contradicted by the accounts of Muslim historians and others going back to the time of Muhammad.

Muhammad's failure to leave a clear line of succession resulted in perpetual internal war following his death. Those who knew him best first battled to force remote tribes into remaining Muslim (the Ridda or 'Apostasy wars'). Then within the closer community, early Meccan converts fought later ones. Hostility developed between those immigrants who had traveled with Muhammad to Mecca and the Ansar at Medina who had helped them settle in. Finally there was a violent struggle within Muhammad's own family between his favorite wife and favorite daughter – a jagged schism that has left Shias and Sunnis at each others' throats to this day.

The strangest and most untrue thing that can be said about Islam is that it is a Religion of Peace. If every standard by which the West is judged and condemned (slavery, imperialism, intolerance, women's rights, warfare…) were applied equally to Islam, the verdict would be absolutely devastating. Islam never gives up what it conquers, be it religion, culture, language or life. Neither does it make apologies or any real effort at moral progress. It is the least open to dialogue and the most self-absorbed. It is convinced of its own perfection, yet brutally shuns examination and represses criticism.

This is what makes the verses of violence so dangerous. They are given the weight of divine command. While Muslim terrorists take them as literally as anything else in the Qur'an, and understand that Islam is incomplete without Jihad, others do little to contradict them. Indeed, what do they have? Speaking of peace and love may win over the ignorant, but when every twelfth verse of Islam's holiest book either speaks to Allah's hatred for non-Muslims or calls for their death, forced conversion, or subjugation, it's little wonder that sympathy for terrorism runs as deeply as it does in the broader community – even if most Muslims personally prefer not to interpret their religion in this way.

In fact, many Muslims are simply unaware of the Qur'an's near absence of verses that preach universal non-violence. This is because their understanding of Islam comes from what they are taught by others. In the West, it is typical for Muslims to come to believe that their religion must be like Christianity – preaching the New Testament virtues of peace, love, and tolerance – because Muslims are taught that Islam is supposed to be superior in every way. They are somewhat surprised and embarrassed to learn that the evidence of the Qur'an and the bloody history of Islam are very much in contradiction to this.

For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking on the altar of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous.

There are just too many Muslims who take the Qur'an literally… and too many others who couldn't care less about the violence done in the name of Islam.

Source

July 27, 2009 at 6:28 am#139043

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2009,16:10)

What's funny is you call Christians and Jews unbelievers the fact is you cant understand spiritual things.

Christians and Jews are not Unbelievers.

But as far as fighting unbelievers are concerned does the bible ever support violence?

Deuteronomy 20:3-5 (King James Version)

3And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;

4For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

Deuteronomy 20 (King James Version)

13And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Joshua 10:24-26 (King James Version)

24And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

25And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight.

26And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

Psalm 35
1Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.

2Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.

So what is your point?

(1) fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #190)

9) Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #69)

10) Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, “We are Christians”: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #82)

July 27, 2009 at 3:16 pm#139078

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 27 2009,02:28)

WorshippingJesus,July wrote:

[/quote]
What's funny is you call Christians and Jews unbelievers the fact is you cant understand spiritual things.

Christians and Jews are not Unbelievers.

But as far as fighting unbelievers are concerned does the bible ever support violence?

Deuteronomy 20:3-5 (King James Version)

3And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;

4For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

Deuteronomy 20 (King James Version)

13And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

Joshua 10:24-26 (King James Version)

25And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight.

26And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

Psalm 35
1Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.

2Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.

So what is your point?

(1) fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #190)

Hi BD

The new covenant Christians in the NT and Jesus own commands is not a part of Islam.

Islam still lives in the Old and has nothing to do with Christianity which began in the book of acts!

July 27, 2009 at 3:34 pm#139084

Participant

Hi BD

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 27 2009,02:28)

What's funny is you call Christians and Jews unbelievers the fact is you cant understand spiritual things.

Christians and Jews are not Unbelievers.

What is a Christian? True believers according to the scriptures is found in the NT, those who believe Jesus died for their sins and rose again.

Read the book of Acts, that is where Christianity begins and where the term “Christians” was first mentioned.

The quotes you make above is contradictory of what the Qoran teaches.

That is not what the Qoran teaches.

The unbelievers are those who do not submit to Allah and the Islamic faith.

Qur'an (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

July 27, 2009 at 3:41 pm#139085

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 27 2009,18:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2009,16:10)

What's funny is you call Christians and Jews unbelievers the fact is you cant understand spiritual things.

Christians and Jews are not Unbelievers.

But as far as fighting unbelievers are concerned does the bible ever support violence?

Deuteronomy 20:3-5 (King James Version)

3And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;

4For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

Deuteronomy 20 (King James Version)

13And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

Joshua 10:24-26 (King James Version)

25And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight.

26And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

Psalm 35
1Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.

2Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.

So what is your point?

(1) fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #190)

bd,
We are under God's new covenant rule now.

thinker

July 27, 2009 at 3:44 pm#139086

Participant

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

BD has denied that Jesus died for our sins and his religion teaches that also.

And yet Gene thinks this is more preferable than trinitarianism. Bd's “God” is not the God of the scriptures.

thinker

July 27, 2009 at 3:44 pm#139088

GeneBalthrop

Participant

DB………..if you say you except the word of Jesus, then except them brother> With Jesus it is not a matter of religions, but a matter of truth. There is no Jew or Gentile , only the (truth) of GOD, abounding in love for all. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

July 27, 2009 at 3:49 pm#139089

Participant

Quote (Gene @ July 28 2009,03:44)

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

Gene,
It's about time you chasitised someone other than a trinitarian here.

thinker

July 27, 2009 at 3:54 pm#139091

GeneBalthrop

Participant

WJ……… Trinitarian “Christianity”, can not boast either, look at all the murders and tortures , they have committed in history all in the name of Jesus. Even in our modern times murdering between them selves, example (Ireland ). If we are of GOD we are different then all and a new creation, moved by the love of GOD in US, no longer able to Hate. There are those of Islam and true Christainity who are moved by Love and abhor violence of any kind. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

July 27, 2009 at 3:59 pm#139092