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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2011,03:01) Hi All, John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.This verse speaks of the Word mentioned in John 1:1. Through the Word, ALL THINGS were made, and without the Word, NOTHING was made.
Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.The word translated as “universe” is really the Greek word “aeon”, which means the “ages”. But the word is definitely PLURAL, and therefore refers to MORE THAN ONE age. So at the very least, God has created MORE THAN ONE age THROUGH His Son, right?
Colossians 1
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.I started at verse 13, just so we are all clear that it is God's Son who is being described in the next verses. But we want to focus our attention on verse 16. Verse 16 tells us exactly WHAT was created through God's Son. It tells us that ALL THINGS were created through God's Son. It goes on to emphasize that this “ALL THINGS” includes the things in heaven, the things on earth, visible things, invisible things, etc. And then after the emphasis, as if to drive the point home, Paul REPEATS the words “ALL THINGS” once more.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.This scripture speaks of our Lord, Jesus Christ. And it tells us once again that ALL THINGS came THROUGH him.
To sum up:
1. ALL things were made through the Word, and without HIM, nothing at all was made. (John 1:3)
2. The ages were made through God's Son. (Hebrews 1:2)
3. ALL things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, were created through God's Son. (Colossians 1:16)
4. ALL things came through our Lord, Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
I see this as undeniable proof that the Word IS God's Son, who IS our Lord, Jesus Christ – through whom ALL THINGS were created.
peace,
mike
Nice one Mike.T8…………My bible say and GOD SAID, not the SON SAID anything, You must be reading a different Bible. My bible says GOD alone and by himself created everything that exists, Again you must be reading a different bible or reading some kind of MYSTERY Into it that it does not itself say right?
peace and love to you and yours T8…………………………………….gene
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,23:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:38) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:13) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:45) 1. The “Glory” is not what is at issue here, but “Who” The Word is.
I'm sorry………………where exactly does it say it is the Word's glory in Romans 8:18?peace,
mike
Shalom Mike,For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:18-19)The Glory, revealed in us, is based on our manifestation as the sons of God.
This is how the same Glory was seen in Jesus. (John 1:14)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
So then Romans 8:18 DOESN'T say anything at all about the Word's glory, right?Please just acknowledge this FACT.
Hi Mike,Your asking the wrong question.
The question you should be asking is
do you see “The Word” written in Rom.8:18.
However, it is indeed referring to “The Word's glory in us.God bless
Ed J
Ed, that IS the first question I asked. See the big, bolded words above.
And an HONEST and DIRECT answer to that very first question would have been, “Well, it doesn't really SAY it is the Word's glory, but I THINK that's what is implied”. Had you said that, I would then ask, “WHY? What makes you think it is implied?”.See Ed? This is how a discussion is SUPPOSED TO WORK.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,23:19) Hi Mike, If you don't know in what capacity,
then why would you discount my assertion?
My assertion being that it was through Jesus' crucifixion.
I discount your assertion because many of the reported “ALL THINGS” that were made through Jesus were made BEFORE he was crucified, Ed. For example, the moon is one of the “ALL THINGS” created through Jesus. But the moon was not made through Jesus when he was crucified. The moon existed way before this event.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,23:23) Hi Mike, I will refrain from using the phrase “The God Spirit” to you; OK?
Good. Refrain from using it at all, because the words NEVER mean that. And if the Holy Spirit OF God is not “The God Spirit”, then you have some rethinking to do, don't you?Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,23:36) Hi Mike, What is at issue here is what “Glory” is it that will be revealed in us, if it is not in the same capacity as it was in Jesus; correct?
My contention is the Glory that will be revealed in us is in the same capacity as it was in Jesus; do you disagree?For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:18-19)God bless
Ed J
Yes Ed. I totally disagree. Jesus has his OWN glory. We have our OWN glory. The sun has its OWN glory. God has His OWN Glory. Etc, etc, etc.You will never have Jesus' glory, just as Jesus will never have God's Glory. God has the Glory of God. Jesus has the glory of the only begotten Son OF God. (Hmmmm……………interesting that the Word ALSO had the glory of the only begotten OF God.)
The main and most important point I want you to see is that God is NOT the ONLY Being in existence who has glory. Can you see that yet?
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 06 2011,23:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2011,03:01) 1. ALL things were made through the Word, and without HIM, nothing at all was made. (John 1:3) 2. The ages were made through God's Son. (Hebrews 1:2)
3. ALL things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, were created through God's Son. (Colossians 1:16)
4. ALL things came through our Lord, Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
I see this as undeniable proof that the Word IS God's Son, who IS our Lord, Jesus Christ – through whom ALL THINGS were created.
peace,
mike
Nice one Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2011,13:14) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,23:36) Hi Mike, What is at issue here is what “Glory” is it that will be revealed in us, if it is not in the same capacity as it was in Jesus; correct?
My contention is the Glory that will be revealed in us is in the same capacity as it was in Jesus; do you disagree?For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:18-19)God bless
Ed J
Yes Ed. I totally disagree. Jesus has his OWN glory. We have our OWN glory. The sun has its OWN glory. God has His OWN Glory. Etc, etc, etc.You will never have Jesus' glory, just as Jesus will never have God's Glory. God has the Glory of God. Jesus has the glory of the only begotten Son OF God. (Hmmmm……………interesting that the Word ALSO had the glory of the only begotten OF God.)
The main and most important point I want you to see is that God is NOT the ONLY Being in existence who has glory. Can you see that yet?
Mike……….Your work of Division never stops does it? Jesus gave us the same Glory as His, Need scripture, i can post it. But what good does it do?, your work of SEPARATION will never stop until you turn away from you false teachings of a Preexistent Jesus Just as the SEPARATISM WORK of trinitarians never stops either. But i assure you a time will come when you will recieve your teachings back to you and you will be truly separated from Christ Identity completely unless you repent of your false teachings that Jesus was any different then we are, a 100% pure human being from his conception to now. He is and always was a Son of MAN the second Adam not existing before the first Adam. He is the first from mankind to achieve the Goal God has in mind for us all. It was by GOD the Fathers power this fellow human Being FROM Mankind was able to achieve the Goal God had in mind for him and this same God can equally achieve (IN) Us that same Goal and that same Glory. As Paul said there is a Glory of MAN and Jesus is Part of that same glory as a son of Man. IMOpeace and love………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,
I'm trying to show Ed that God is not the only Being in existence who has glory. Do you agree with Ed that ALL glory is God's? Or do you agree with me and scripture that Jesus, Solomon, the sun, the moon and the stars all have their OWN glory?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2011,13:17) Ed, you didn't address my last post concerning Rev 17 and 19.
Hi Mike,I did address it, it was on page #10 in Post #4.
I’m surprised that you would count similar wording of these two separate verses as conclusive,
when I have shown you that “The Word” fathered both Jesus and us. (See Heb.7:28 and James 1:18, 1Peter 1:23)
In John 1:14 it mentions “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” which is about “The Word” fathering Jesus. (See also Heb.7:28)I have started a thread a long time ago here and you have yet to consider all the verses I have documented,
which indicate The Word is the HolySpirit rather than Jesus(as a person). (Link to the thread)And we beheld his(The Word's) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity;
but The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.1 et.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
incorruptible, by The Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.Of his own will begat he us with The Word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2011,12:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2011,13:17) Ed, you didn't address my last post concerning Rev 17 and 19.
Hi Mike,I did address it, it was on page #10 in Post #4.
I answered your post on page 12, post #3. I'm now asking for a response to THAT post I made.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2011,12:11) I’m surprised that you would count similar wording of these two separate verses as conclusive,
when I have shown you that “The Word” fathered both Jesus and us. (See Heb.7:28 and James 1:18, 1Peter 1:23)
In John 1:14 it mentions “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” which is about “The Word” fathering Jesus. (See also Heb.7:28)
Ed, I really want to discuss all of these scriptures with you. Actually, I've already discussed them. But I want to discuss them to the point that you realize your misunderstanding.But first, aside from the response about Rev 17 vs Rev 19 that I'm waiting for, I also want a DIRECT answer to these points that you've let slide. I want a CLEAR recognition by you that I was right, or else scriptural proof that I am wrong.
1. Do you now agree that God is not the only being in existence who has glory? YES or NO?
2. Do you now agree that not all instances of “word” in scripture means “Jesus” – or from your point of view, “the Holy Spirit”? I want you to CLEARLY understand that sometimes “word” simply means “word”. For example, if the scripture says, “Obey the word of God”, I want you to know that it is not telling us to obey the Holy Spirit or Jesus. It is simply telling you to obey the things God told us to do or not do. Do you understand that sometimes “word” simply refers to a word, words, commands, or promises that God has spoken? YES or NO?
3. I want CLEAR acknowledgement from you that the genitive form of “theos” means “OF God”………..and NOTHING else. In order for me to help you, you have to let go of some major misunderstandings you've been holding on to. And one of them is that “Spirit OF God” can mean “the God Spirit”. It ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY CANNOT mean that. And I want you to ACKNOWLEDGE that you know this.
I read your post where you said you “wouldn't use” Spirit God with me anymore. But that's not good enough. If you want truth, then you have to come to the understanding that the phrase “the Spirit OF God” NEVER means “the God Spirit”.
And once you understand this FACT, then you'll have no more answer left when I ask you what the little word “OF” means. You'll have to eventually accept the truth of the matter that the Holy Spirit is OF God – as in A POSSESSION OF God – and not God Himself.
As soon as I hear back from you about the 3rd post on page 12, we will discuss the “similar wording” you mentioned in this post.
As a measure of good faith, I will now address your first scripture from this post.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:51) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,21:01) Hi Mike, Do you really think you’re telling me something that I myself have not also considered?
Have you not noticed that the kings of the Earth make war against “The Lamb” in Rev.17:14.
And “The HolySpirit”(called The Word) makes war against the kings of the Earth in Rev.19:11-21.
What I notice in 17 is that the beast and the kings of the earth WILL make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome because HE is the Lord of lords.Then I notice in 19 that the beast and the kings of the earth DO make war against the Word of God who is the Lord of lords, and HE DOES overcome them.
Ed, are you blinded by your own theory? Can you not see that the beast and the kings of the earth make war against only ONE Lord of lords, and that ONE Lord of lords is both the Word of God AND the Lamb of God?
Hi Mike,The kings make war with the Lamb in Rev.17:14,
then Jesus' Father(The Word) brings the Cavalry
to fight back Rev.19:11-21; it's pretty simple really.Notice how the AKJV Bible has the titles “KING OF KINGS”,
and “LORD OF LORDS” in all capital letters in Revelation 19:16.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2011,10:08)
Do you now agree that God is not the only being in existence who has glory? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,The point “I” was making is: that Jesus came in his fathers glory. …do you agree with this?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2011,10:08)
(1)Do you now agree that not all instances of “word” in scripture means “Jesus” – (2)or from your point of view, “the Holy Spirit”?
Hi Mike,1) None of them do
2) Can you point to any that do not?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHebrews 7 NIV
26 Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.Ed, do you understand that this passage is referring to Jesus being appointed as High Priest? The KJV and Webster's are the only two translations that use the word “makes”. But they aren't using that word the way you are understanding it. For example, we could say that God “appointed” Jesus as the Lord of lords. But we could also say that God “MADE” Jesus the Lord of lords. In this sense, the word “MADE” isn't referring to when God originally brought Jesus into existence. It is talking about God “appointing” him to a position, ie: “making” him King.
The word of the oath is what “appointed”, or “made” Jesus High Priest. It is not talking about a word that brought Jesus into existence. Don't forget that the word of oath mentioned came AFTER THE LAW. Surely you don't think the Holy Spirit didn't exist until AFTER THE LAW, do you?
Comments?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2011,10:08)
I want CLEAR acknowledgement from you that the genitive form of “theos” means “OF God”………..and NOTHING else.
Hi Mike,It can also be translated as God's (the possessive form of God); have you forgotten?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2011,17:18) Hi Mike, The kings make war with the Lamb in Rev.17:14,
then Jesus' Father(The Word) brings the Cavalry
to fight back Rev.19:11-21; it's pretty simple really.
Ed,Which letters the KJV capitalized and which ones they didn't are of no import, so I won't bother with that trivial point. But consider this:
Revelation 19 NIV
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”Compare that bolded part to the following bolded part, which we KNOW is about Jesus:
Psalm 2 NIV
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD:He said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”Do you see it yet? Or need I delve into this even farther?
peace,
mike
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