Is the Vatican the Beast?

[Proclaimer]

I think the whore relates to religion. A whore in spiritual terms is a person or nation that goes after other gods. And the fact that this whore is ‘Mystery Babylon’ says a lot. Babylon was judged not for her prosperity and trade, but for her false gods. Babylon is the mother of false religion and the practices of Babylon were passed down through history through the different empires. The language and important names changed, but it was Babylonian religion all the same. Now the biggest religion is Roman Catholicism. It too has Babylonian influence such as the mother of God/Madonna and a trinity. In fact the Trinity is its primary doctrine which happens to conflict with the first commandment. Her priests wear crimson and purple and drink from golden cups and her capital sits is on seven hills. She came from the Holy Roman Empire thus riding on the back of the Beast is an apt description for her. And her doctrine pervades the world thus making the people drunk.

For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,

Further, she herself became drunk on the blood of God’s people.

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

The whore is not the Beast, but rides on the back of the Beast. She is guilty of killing God’s people. The Beast is the political system in the area of the Great Sea. Empires here seem to be unbroken since the time of Egypt till WWI when the Ottoman Empire ended. It seems that six great empires rose up here and each superseded their predecessor. The whore is a religious system and some estimates have the Papacy killing as much as 75 million people for different crimes such as heresy which included denial of their core doctrine of the Trinity. There are not many written records at that time, but for over a 1000 years she reigned the people with terror and burned people at the stake and persecuted many.

We also know from scripture that the Beast will hate the whore and certainly the last head of this beast the one after Rome was the Ottoman Empire of Caliphate. They conquered the Roman Empire and ruled for centuries afterward. Being an Islamic Empire, their desire is to destroy Vatican City and their prophecies in the Hadith say as much. In Revelation however, we read this:

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

[terraricca]

t8

first finish reading the fall of Babylon the great until the end of the story

it says the she is guilty of ALL of the dead on on earth ,was babylon existed at the dead of Abel ?

[Proclaimer]

I doubt it says that. Which scripture are you referring to?

[Proclaimer]

This is another theory as to Mystery Babylon. I think this and the theory we are discussing at the moment look more suitable. While it may be confusing to say there are two really good contenders here, it could be that Mystery Babylon is simply all the false religions that permeated these empires by the Great Sea. So in the reign of each head in the Beast, there was a religion that stemmed from Babylon that went by a different name, but was similar in principle and origin.

[terraricca]

t8

revelation 18:24

[Berean]

THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE

Revelation contains the story of two women. Revelation 12 describes the suffering of the true church whom the whore judged as worthy of death. Revelation 17 describes the destruction of the whore whom Heaven judged worthy of death. This is an overview of Revelation 17.  A longer PDF version is available above for download.

Revelation Chapter 17
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book

of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

OVERVIEW

In vision John was carried forward to our day, the time of the judgment. From the period of the judgment he looked back in time to when the Papal church was supported by the Papal State, the whore supported by the beast. The angel, speaking from our point in time, told John that the Papal State that supported the Papal Church had been and was not, having been abolished in 1798 – i.e. received a deadly wound. However it is to arise again and be called the eighth head. Then all the corrupt powers which have apostatized from God will give their support to the Papacy for a prophetic hour in her last effort to eradicate the saints. However, when her triumph looks certain her supporters will turn on her and destroy her as described in Revelation 18.

verse 1: The Great Whore Identified
(a) A woman represents a church. (Jer 6:2; 2Cor 11:2). As a pure woman represents a pure church, this whore must represent an apostate church (cf. Isa 1:21; Hos 4:11) in contrast to the true church in Rev 12:1. Idolatry & friendship with the world are spiritual adultery (Eze 16:17; Jer 3:6, 9; James 4:4). Incidentally Rome calls herself the “Mother” Church.

verse 1: A worldwide church
She sits on waters. Waters symbolise the nations of the world. (Rev 17:1, 15). She is therefore a catholic (world-wide) church. Incidentally Catholic means universal.

verse 2: A fornicating church
This Church has turned from Christ to fornicate spiritually with the State whom she seduces into enforcing her doctrines. Incidentally the Roman Catholic church is a union of church and  state.

verse 3: She sits upon a beast
The beast represents the civil political powers which support her (See verse 8).

verse 4: She is arrayed in Gold, stones, pearls etc.
Not shamefaced or sober (cf. 1Tim 2:9). Incidentally the Papacy has much gold, pearls etc.

verse 4: A church wearing purple & scarlet
She is dressed similar to the old testament High Priest (cf. Exo 28:15-22) but unlike him she has no blue.  As blue represents “all the commandments of the Lord” (Num 15:37-39) this indicates that she does not keep all of Godʼs commandments. (cf. Dan 7:25). Incidentally the priest wear purple & scarlet colours.

verse 4: Golden cup full of abominations
In place of “the cup of salvation” (Ps 116:13) containing unfermented “wine,” a symbol of Christʼs uncorrupted doctrine, (Mark 14:24), the whoreʼs cup is full of alcoholic intoxicating wine (corrupted doctrine). (Prov 31:3-5). Unclean food are an abomination (Lev 11). Idolatry & Sun worship are abominations (Eze 8:9-17). This system eats unclean foods practices idolatry and worships on the Sunday.
See Appendix on Alcohol. Incidentally the Papacy offers a cup of alcohol in its communion services.

verse 5: Mystery Babylon. A Mother church
The High priest had “Holiness to the Lord” (Exo 39:30-31) on his forehead. The whore has Mystery Babylon, Mother of Harlots on her forehead. This church counterfeits Godʼs priesthood. Her daughters are others churches which came out of her yet tragically followed their Mother Church in sacrificing truth in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. ʻFatherʼ James OʼBrien said, “That observance [of Sunday instead of Saturday] remains a reminder of the MOTHER CHURCH from which the non-Catholic sects broke away.” The Faith of Millions (Huntington, IN: Our Sunday Visitor, (Roman Catholic) Inc., 1974), p401.

verse 5: Babylon
Babylon originally meant “Gate to God.” The Papacy claims to be the only way to God and salvation. In the Bible Babylon means confusion (Gen 11:9).

verse 6: Drunken with saintʼs blood
Inasmuch as “the blood…of ALL that were slain on earth,” is found in her (Rev 18:24) she apparently represents the dominant forms of false religion from the beginning of time, but particularly at its close. The clues most especially fit the Papal church.

This church martyred Christians during her  period of supremacy. See on Daniel 7:25.

[Proclaimer]

It is definitely a viable view that the woman riding the beast is the Vatican or Roman Catholic Church. Some things don’t appear to line up though like the city in the desert of which Rome is not. I’ve linked in a slide share to read later. Not sure if it is any good though.

Mecca is Mystery Babylon from charlesmartel1974

[Ed J]

Is the Vatican the Beast?

NO, islam is

[Ed J]

Compare

Rev. 6:2-8 – 4 Horses
Zech 6:2-8 – 4 Chariots

White Horse – Catholicism
Red Horse – Communism
Black Horse – Capitalism
Green Horse – islamism

[Proclaimer]

The Vatican is not the Beast. But certainly the Vatican could be described as riding upon the Beast. It might be the whore of Babylon, but it might not too.

[Berean]

 

 

According to Daniel 7
A beast is the symbol of a king, a kingdom, (nation, state, power…)

On the other hand a woman symbolizes
a church (see Rev.12)
or a city (Rev.17)
see both (Rev.21.9-11)

See Rev. 21

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
[11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

AND

Rev.22
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Thus the head of the beast designates the chief of the kingdom or the state

The Pope is the political head of the Vatican State.

The woman prostitute despises the RELIGIOUS POWER of the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic=universal

Head beast=political power

The Harlot=religious power

In Rev.17 it is the harlot who is judged (  Although the two form a single entity)  and not the beast.
And the reasons are given
by the angel who talks to John.

Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

 

Why IN THE WILDERNESS ?

( So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphem)

BECAUSE THE BEAST (HEAD BEAST ) IS WOUNDED TO DEATH SHE CANNOT PERSECUT  GOD’S PEOPLE AND LACKS THE POWER OF THE 10 HORNS.(from 1798 until now )

1798 is the end of the Papal supremaccy.

But it’s not over.

 

Rev.17 say

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not;

was: 538-1798

and is not : 1798 to now

and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[GeneBalthrop]

Berean. …..the beast that was and is not and shall asend out of the bottomless pit,  is Satan and this takes place at the end of the millennial regin of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s.   Go read what I wrote about Rev 17,  it time dates the prophesy,  you cannot understand Revelations unless you understand Rev 17. And you must understand John was transported in time to the “day of the lord”.  You people are mixing up what’s going to happen at the end of millennial regin of Jesus and the Saint’s,  with what is to happen at Jesus return.  Rev 17 is talking about what is going to take place at the end of his regain just before God the Fathers return, when Satan is released from the bottomless pit and joins in with the Seventh revision of the Babyloian kingdom , it will only exist for 3 1/2 years, and God the Father will destroy it at his return.

The return of Jesus is a Cestrial even just as Luke describes.  We are now living in the Fifth kingdom of Babylon,  the feet of Iron and Clay, as Daniel said. The next to come is the Sixth kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s.  

Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

 

[Berean]

 

Gene…

You say that:

“the beast that was and is not and shall asend out of the bottomless pit,  is Satan…..”

Sorry Gene,

the Bible don’t say that.

REV.12 .3 say that

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads

At Verse 9 we read:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Great red Dragon is Satan

 

Satan is not the beast himself

Yes He acts through/by the beast

But he is not the beast.

In Rev.13 we read about theDragon and the beast:

Rev.13.2

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

To understand how the dragon

gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority to the beast,

we must know that

there is a second interpretation to the symbol of the great Dragon who is Satan himself.
In Rev.12 we see that the Dragon tried to kill the child Jesus through the King Herod, and

this King was a Roman king.

Read that in Rev.12 .4

and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

So Yes the Great Red Dragon symbolizes Satan himself in Revelation 12

And since he often acts
by means of human intermediaries, (here King Herod)…
we can also say in Rev.12
that it also symbolizes the Roman Empire…

Now I go back to Rev.13

and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

How Satan by Roman Empire gave

to the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority?

We shall see that in another time if God want

God bless

[Berean]

 

 

A new thing, never seen before in history happened in the Roman Empire. In the course of its history it changed its official religion, which changed its character: from a political power it became a religious power.

When the power of the emperors began to weaken, they transferred their capital: Constantinople, instead of Rome, became their residence (AD 330)

This created a vacuum which the Bishop of Rome hastened to fill. Soon he began to want to dominate the other bishops and recover the prestige and credit that the previous Roman emperors had enjoyed exclusively. Thus the “dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority”. One historian states: “From the ruins of political Rome arose a great moral empire in the colossal form of the Roman Church” (Alexander Clarence Flick, The Rise of the Medieval Church, p. 150 – New-York: Burt Franklin, 1959).

 

[GeneBalthrop]

Berean. ……the Roman Empire is the Forth Babylon rise, it is completely none existent at this time, we are in the fifth rise of the Babyloian empire’s the one of Iron and Clay. The next world rulling Empire to come on this earth is the Sixth , the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saints.

At the end of  the millennial reign,  Satan will be RELEASED  FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT,  where he was placed at the beginning of the kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s. Which is the Sixth kingdom on this earth, the next after that is the Seventh World rulling kingdom which will be a revival of the Babyloian Empire and then Satan is released and Joins it as the Eight which is part of the Seventh. They only last for 3  1/2 years, the God the Father return to this earth destroys that kingdom and Satan is cast into Predition.

The problem is you not putting the timeline of Rev 17, right , the one that is mentioned there, is not talking about at the time John was given the Prophesy in the Roman Empire, as most everyone thinks, but John was speaking from the day of the Lord or from the END OF THE SIXTH KINGDOM.  If you don’t have that time line right you can’t understand the time John was Speaking from.   Please go and read what I wrote on REV 17,  STUDY IT , it fits perfectly with what time John was speaking about. It was not the time he was given it to write down. Thats what throws all these false prophets off, they are not undertanding  the time line of the prophesy. That why it say now here is the mind that has wisdom, you must understand John was advanced into the day of the lord, when Jesus and the Saint’s were rulling , not before Jesus returns.

Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

[Berean]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gene,

You say

“the Roman Empire is the fourth ascension of Babylon, we are in the fifth ascension of the Babylonian Empire, that of iron and clay. The next empire to come on this earth is the sixth, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saints.”

THERE IS INDEED A ROMAN ELEMENT IN THE FEET OF IRON AND CLAY AND IT’S IRON. READ WELL DANIEL 2 WHICH GIVES THE MEANING:

V.40-43 2:40

[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

BASICALLY IT’S ALWAYS THE FOURTH KINGDOM.
BUT AS DANIEL SAYS
IT IS DIVIDED
IT HAS THE STRENGTH OF IRON
IT IS PARTLY STRONG AND PARTLY FRAGILE
HE IS MIXED BY HUMAN ALLIANCES (MARRIAGES) WITHOUT BEING UNITED.

YOU SAY:

“At the end of the millennial reign, Satan will be released from the bottomless pit, where he was placed at the beginning of the kingdom of Jesus and the Holy One. ”

THIS IS FALSE AND DOES NOT FIT THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION OF GOD.

SATAN HAS NOT YET BEEN PUT INTO THE ABYSS…THIS WILL HAPPEN AFTER THE NEXT COMING OF JESUS CHRIST.

FOR THE MILLENNIUM IS THE TIME OF THE JUDGMENT OF THE WICKED IN HEAVEN WITH CHRIST AND THE SAINTS…

Verses about the judgment of the wicked s: 1 Corinthians 6:2,3 and Rev.20

1COR.6.2 Do you not know that the Saints will judge the world? Or if the world is to be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest things?

REVELATION 20 20:4 And I saw thrones; and to them that sat upon them was given power to judge. And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and of them that had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received the mark upon their foreheads and upon their hands. They came to life again, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

IF SATAN WAS NOW PRISONER (in the bottomless pit) HE WOULDN’T DO SO MUCH HARM ON THIS PLANET AND THERE WOULDN’T BE NOT PEOPLE POSSESSED BY HIM. SATAN COULDN’T TEMPT ANYONE. THINK ABOUT IT. IT MAKES SENSE.

IN REVELATION 17 JOHN SEE THE TIME OF WHORE’S JUDGMENT AND THE FINAL EVENTS BEFORE THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.

Hopefully this helps a little.

God bless.

[Proclaimer]

The iron mixed with clay is interesting because the Roman Empire was conquered by the Ottoman Empire. And talking about the iron and clay it says they will mix. Further, the Word ‘mixed’ is the Word ‘arab’ in Arabic.

Just as you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……we are in the time of the feet of Iron and Clay…….very powerful nations exist on this earth, but they are not tied together,  nor agree with eachother, they are mixed with the seeds of men (different nationalities of people), that includes the U S, China,  Russia, England, France,  and other powerful nations , they are not connected nor act as a single world rulling Nation.  They are politically different in the way they govern. We are in the last (fifth kingdom) just before the Sixth kingdom comes,  the kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saints,   and after that comes the seventh and eight which is part of the seventh.

You must understand the time line written in Rev 17  and tie it in with what Daniel  told King Neburchnasser.  Dan 2:37-44

We are this day in the fifth BABYLOIAN kingdom,  that rules this earth. The next to come is the Sixth Kingdom.

Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

[Berean]

Gene

It was the Saracens, then the Turks who contributed to the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire.(See Revelation chapter 9)

As for the Western Roman Empire, its dismantling and fall was due to the attacks of the barbarians:
The Visigoths, the Vandals, the Huns,
and the Heruli.

See Revelation chapter 8

 

 

[Ed J]

The beast is: Muhammadin-islam

The eighth, and of the seventh, and goeth into perdition

[Author]

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