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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2010,11:40) T8……….So you believe this preexistent being completely wiped out all his past memory and had to learn all over again As a human being ,
If he existed with divine nature and emptied himself and existed in human nature, then I guess that it would be very possible. But that would be reading too much into it. There doesn't appear to be anything in the gospels that says otherwise and Jesus was after all like us, so it does point to this hypothesis.But do think about the word emptied. If I empty my mind, then I take away my past knowledge and look at something through the eyes of innocence with no pre-knowledge to judge it, thereby rendering any bias as useless.
So that could be an indication of what it means to empty yourself.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 23 2010,15:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2010,11:40) T8……….So you believe this preexistent being completely wiped out all his past memory and had to learn all over again As a human being ,
If he existed with divine nature and emptied himself and existed in human nature, then I guess that it would be very possible. But that would be reading too much into it. There doesn't appear to be anything in the gospels that says otherwise and Jesus was after all like us, so it does point to this hypothesis.But do think about the word emptied. If I empty my mind, then I take away my past knowledge and look at something through the eyes of innocence with no pre-knowledge to judge it, thereby rendering any bias as useless.
So that could be an indication of what it means to empty yourself.
Hi T8 and Gene,I believe that we all preexisted and all had “The MindSweep”.
It's nice to see you both come to this conclusion as well!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTo All,
John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall
not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath
are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 23 2010,16:59) Hi T8 and Gene, I believe that we all preexisted and all had “The MindSweep”.
It's nice to see you both come to this conclusion as well!God bless
Ed J
Ed, I made a comment about emptying yourself and what that could mean. It says that Jesus emptied himself, but it is not written that we emptied ourselves.So pre-existence for us can only be an opinion at best.
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 23 2010,17:59) Hi T8 and Gene, I believe that we all preexisted and all had “The MindSweep”.
It's nice to see you both come to this conclusion as well!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed, how did you come to that conclusion ?Quote (t8 @ Aug. 23 2010,21:34) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 23 2010,16:59) Hi T8 and Gene, I believe that we all preexisted and all had “The MindSweep”.
It's nice to see you both come to this conclusion as well!God bless
Ed J
Ed, I made a comment about emptying yourself and what that could mean. It says that Jesus emptied himself, but it is not written that we emptied ourselves.So pre-existence for us can only be an opinion at best.
Hi T8,Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth
out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness,
because ye have been with me from the beginning.Would you “only” apply John 15:27 to “The Apostles”,
but apply Mathew 10:39 to us and the Apostles both?
Think about making this type of selective applications?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2010,12:05) You say Jesus was morphed into an Human being without any memory, then you say he remembered the glory he had in the past with the Father when he preexisted as some other kind of Being.
I don't say that, scripture does.He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, existed in the form of man, humbled himself, died, rose again, and is now at the right hand of the Father in the glory that he had with him before the world began.
Amen.
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 23 2010,21:44) Hi T8, Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth
out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness,
because ye have been with me from the beginning.Would you “only” apply John 15:27 to “The Apostles”,
but apply Mathew 10:39 to us and the Apostles both?
Think about making this type of selective applications?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
Hey Ed, I actually read your post because I didn't see any numbers scattered around to distract me. It started off good, but I honestly do not know what you are talking about now. What was that about me saying something about those 2 scriptures. You have lost me with this.Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 23 2010,21:37) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 23 2010,17:59) Hi T8 and Gene, I believe that we all preexisted and all had “The MindSweep”.
It's nice to see you both come to this conclusion as well!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed, how did you come to that conclusion ?
Hi Shimmer,It's a matter of understanding “The Bible” as a whole. (Click Here)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Aug. 23 2010,21:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2010,12:05) You say Jesus was morphed into an Human being without any memory, then you say he remembered the glory he had in the past with the Father when he preexisted as some other kind of Being.
I don't say that, scripture does.He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, existed in the form of man, humbled himself, died, rose again, and is now at the right hand of the Father in the glory that he had with him before the world began.
Amen.
T8……….You keep referring to the statement the Jesus (existed) in the form or nature of GOD. But you are failing to realize when Paul made that statement He was talking about Jesus existence when he was on earth . That was to Paul a Past existence because Jesus had since then dies and was risen and no longer on earth, So Jesus present place is in heaven.So if i were to Say what Paul said i could use the same language, i could say “who existed (past tense) meaning on earth, and when he was on earth he did not think this nature of GOD He Had was something to be grasped for to try to make himself equal with GOD. But took on the form or nature of a servant. This was Paul's Point as an example to Us also who have the God Nature in Us also by His Spirit, that we should stay Humbles and serve one another as Jesus did. IMO
But what you are saying is that Paul is saying Jesus was preexistent before his earth existence something that Paul never said. You can not find any words there where you can conclude Paul was speaking of a pre- earth existence at all. That is an assumption on you part brother.
T8, trying to use this as a proof text for Jesus' pre-earth existence is forcing the text . IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 23 2010,21:51) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 23 2010,21:44) Hi T8, Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth
out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness,
because ye have been with me from the beginning.Would you “only” apply John 15:27 to “The Apostles”,
but apply Mathew 10:39 to us and the Apostles both?
Think about making this type of selective applications?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
Hey Ed, I actually read your post because I didn't see any numbers scattered around to distract me. It started off good, but I honestly do not know what you are talking about now. What was that about me saying something about those 2 scriptures. You have lost me with this.
Hi T8,Don't Jeremiah 1:5 and John 15:27 hint of preexistence as well?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgED J……………..I have also thought about that, there seem to be some scriptures that tend to infer that like the ones you have mentioned and also where Jesus said to GOD that “THEY WERE YOURS AND YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM TO ME”> Also Cyrus seem to have been a preordained being and as you say Jeremiah , But while we can say there is a Foreordained Human a human that is part of the work of GOD in His plans is true, but to say they actually preexisted as a real (Being) before there berth is an assumption, no where in scripture is the specifically said.
The bad thing about this ideology of Jesus' Preexistence is the effect it has on our minds it tends to (SEPARATE) Jesus from our (EXACT) idenity and removes us from our Hope of coming to the (FULL) Measure of Christ. Because it given Him spicial advantages that we do not have. It is every bit as bad a The False teaching of the TRINITY, in fact the conept of Preexistence was forstered by Trinitarians and is hand and Hand just as devastating against the work of GOD (IN) Humanity and not only that but is also against the work of Jesus, our (TRUE) Brother. It is the Spirit (INTELLECT) of the Antichrists. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2010,02:34) ED J……………..I have also thought about that, there seem to be some scriptures that tend to infer that like the ones you have mentioned and also where Jesus said to GOD that “THEY WERE YOURS AND YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM TO ME”> Also Cyrus seem to have been a preordained being and as you say Jeremiah , But while we can say there is a Foreordained Human a human that is part of the work of GOD in His plans is true, but to say they actually preexisted as a real (Being) before there berth is an assumption, no where in scripture is the specifically said. peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………gene
Hi Gene,WARNING: Reading this entire Post will teach you! (Heb.5:13-14)
I personally believe we all preexisted;
but I will NOT go to battle over this issue!
Here are some more important verses for you to consider.Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil,
and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.
His angels that were cast to earth, how did they arrive; through birth?Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear:
clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth,
without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
What does 'twice dead' mean? Could these be the angels of Rev.12:9?John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Instead of baptism(symbolizing death), could “born of water” actually mean…
Human birth: Which starts when a woman's water breaks commencing child birth?
John 3:5 would then mean that the fallen angels ONLY way back to The kingdom of God
would be to be born of woman as the rest of us were including Jesus!“Born of the Spirit” is obvious: That is what Jesus calls “Born again”. (John 3:3)
Compare the term Born Again (John 3:3) with the term 'twice dead'. (Jude 1:12)Jesus taking satan down in himself would then give real meaning to Isaiah 14:19-20; verses most
preachers NEVER touch. That would also add great clarity to the meaning of Nahum 1:14 and John 17:12.
Nahum 1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of
the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept,
and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
What Scripture are the scriptures might be fulfilled? Isaiah 14:19-20 and Nahum 1:14 of course!
(Click Here for more) <– Second Post from bottom and continuing on Page 26, 27, 28 & 29God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2010,10:34) ED J……………..I have also thought about that, there seem to be some scriptures that tend to infer that like the ones you have mentioned and also where Jesus said to GOD that “THEY WERE YOURS AND YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM TO ME”> Also Cyrus seem to have been a preordained being and as you say Jeremiah , But while we can say there is a Foreordained Human a human that is part of the work of GOD in His plans is true, but to say they actually preexisted as a real (Being) before there berth is an assumption, no where in scripture is the specifically said. The bad thing about this ideology of Jesus' Preexistence is the effect it has on our minds it tends to (SEPARATE) Jesus from our (EXACT) idenity and removes us from our Hope of coming to the (FULL) Measure of Christ. Because it given Him spicial advantages that we do not have. It is every bit as bad a The False teaching of the TRINITY, in fact the conept of Preexistence was forstered by Trinitarians and is hand and Hand just as devastating against the work of GOD (IN) Humanity and not only that but is also against the work of Jesus, our (TRUE) Brother. It is the Spirit (INTELLECT) of the Antichrists. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………gene
Hello Gene,As hard as I try I never do make it to the “full” measure of Christ.
Actually I think Mike has produced a dozen threads and all have verses showing Christ's pre-existence which people don't wish to accept. Why not?
And if all have sinned, did Jesus too? Why not?
He knocked over the people's money and tables and made a public disturbance…..what do you call that?
The Professor
DBF………..The reason we don't except what Mike is saying, is because he is forcing the text and go against what is written in the Old Testament. that is the reason we do not accept them. He has not proved anything so far concerning the Preexistence of Jesus as a living Being. Not to mention it would not make any sense for God to send a preexisting being and then try pass him off as a true Human being, Remember that whole ideology is the produce of the Trinitarian teachings is was developed to back up there false Trinitarian doctrine.
peace and love……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 26 2010,22:47) DBF………..The reason we don't except what Mike is saying, is because he is forcing the text and go against what is written in the Old Testament. that is the reason we do not accept them. He has not proved anything so far concerning the Preexistence of Jesus as a living Being. Not to mention it would not make any sense for God to send a preexisting being and then try pass him off as a true Human being, Remember that whole ideology is the produce of the Trinitarian teachings is was developed to back up there false Trinitarian doctrine. peace and love……………………….gene
Gene,I don't believe in the Trinity.
I find that the Scriptures Mike uses do show Jesus' pre-existence. Try to look at all of the Scriptures that has been presented, you don't find enough evidence from them?
Many times I find only one or two verses that talk about something and then I have to determine what to think about it. Tonite was a prime example: Virgin birth, Scriptural or not. Not too much to go on.
However, in many NT books I see the evidence of Jesus pre-existing as well as Jesus is “NOT God”!
The Professor
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2010,02:34) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 24 2010,02:11) Hi T8, Don't Jeremiah 1:5 and John 15:27 hint of preexistence as well?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED J……………..I have also thought about that, there seem to be some scriptures that tend to infer that like the ones you have mentioned and also where Jesus said to GOD that “THEY WERE YOURS AND YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM TO ME”> Also Cyrus seem to have been a preordained being and as you say Jeremiah , But while we can say there is a Foreordained Human a human that is part of the work of GOD in His plans is true, but to say they actually preexisted as a real (Being) before there berth is an assumption, no where in scripture is the specifically said.The bad thing about this ideology of Jesus' Preexistence is the effect it has on our minds it tends to (SEPARATE) Jesus from our (EXACT) idenity and removes us from our Hope of coming to the (FULL) Measure of Christ. Because it given Him spicial advantages that we do not have. It is every bit as bad a The False teaching of the TRINITY, in fact the conept of Preexistence was forstered by Trinitarians and is hand and Hand just as devastating against the work of GOD (IN) Humanity and not only that but is also against the work of Jesus, our (TRUE) Brother. It is the Spirit (INTELLECT) of the Antichrists. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………gene
Hi Gene,If “WE ALL” preexisted (in spirit form) how would Jesus be any different than us?
Your logic is waving back and forth.
Ed J (Isaiah 54:17)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ…………Where did i say we ever existed in Spiirt, i never said that, what i said was (I) have no awareness of any Past (EXISTENCE), and believe Jesus also was and is (EXACTLY) LIKE US . I do not (SEPARATE) Jesus from my (EXACT) identity as a Human Being in every way.
I can see (NO) reason for GOD to Take a Preexisting Being and Morph him into a human being and pass him of as a real human being. Show me a (SPECIFIC AND CLEAR ) SCRIPTURE THAT SAY Jesus Preexisted as a Being anywhere in the bible. I have yet to seen it there, just forced texts to come to a conclusion the backs up the Trinitarians stand and it us their translator who chose their word carefully to force that conclusion, which they derived fro the Greek and Roman pagan idolatries.
Many here think that it was only the Trinity that was corrupted, but the truth is there are many , many, many, corruption of scriptures that has taken place, so if what is said does not line up with the old testament then there is a problem associated with what ever is being taught. Jesus creating every thing and his preexistence as a God or any other being does (NOT) line up. IMO
peace andl love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2010,09:50) EDJ…………Where did i say we ever existed in Spiirt, i never said that, what i said was (I) have no awareness of any Past (EXISTENCE), and believe Jesus also was and is (EXACTLY) LIKE US . I do not (SEPARATE) Jesus from my (EXACT) identity as a Human Being in every way. I can see (NO) reason for GOD to Take a Preexisting Being and Morph him into a human being and pass him of as a real human being. Show me a (SPECIFIC AND CLEAR ) SCRIPTURE THAT SAY Jesus Preexisted as a Being anywhere in the bible. I have yet to seen it there, just forced texts to come to a conclusion the backs up the Trinitarians stand and it us their translator who chose their word carefully to force that conclusion, which they derived fro the Greek and Roman pagan idolatries.
Many here think that it was only the Trinity that was corrupted, but the truth is there are many , many, many, corruption of scriptures that has taken place, so if what is said does not line up with the old testament then there is a problem associated with what ever is being taught. Jesus creating every thing and his preexistence as a God or any other being does (NOT) line up. IMO
peace andl love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Hello Gene,I wish I was an expert in the OT….so I could show you all the Scriptures that Jesus showed to the two disciples on the road to Emmaeus after his resurrection.
David keeps writing about his Lord (Jesus) being with the LORD (God). Psalms 22 written before Jesus died on the cross was already there.
Mike could and maybe should gather together all the pre-existence Scripture so that you can explain them away…without him trying to “fit them” into his theology.
The Professor
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:52) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 14 2010,02:11) Fair enough t8. But on a thread I started about Nick's interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:19 you said that I made an antichrist statement: Quote KJ,
God was in Christ.
The alternative is that God wasn't in Christ.
And it doesn't say that God is Christ.The first line is right, the second one is antichrist, and the third is not written.
Read it again Roo.God was in Christ.
The alternative is that God wasn't in Christ.The first line is right, the second one is antichrist.
I simply said that to say that God wasn't in Christ, is an antichrist statement because you would then be denying that he was the Christ by reason of the safe assumption that God was working through and in him.
If you said that God wasn't actually in Christ Jesus doing the work, then you would be denying pretty much the whole purpose of the Christ because the Christ is the anointed one.
I am sure that if you read it again, you will see that I correctly say that to deny that God wasn't in Christ would be an antichrist statement.
In case you were not aware, there are a number of ways that the antichrist spirit shows itself. It is not exclusively denying that he came in the flesh. If you deny that Jesus is the Christ, then that is also antichrist. And it is commonly taught that to replace Jesus Christ with another is also anti-christ.
Antichrist is a Greek word transliterated into the English. It is made up of a preposition Anti and the noun Christos. First, the word “anti” means “against” and/or “instead of”, and Christos means anointed.
My argument is simple, if you say that Jesus is actually God, then that denies that God (who is the Father) was in him redeeming the world to himself. In that case, this affects two important things.
1) That the Father wasn't in Christ, rather God was Christ.
2) This has the further consequence of saying that God came in the flesh and died, which is different than believing that Jesus came in the flesh and died.As we know, God is not a man, and God cannot die.
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ (the anointed). Such a man is the antichrist– he denies the Father and the Son.”
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
T8,Very well said. Your points are Biblically accurate.
God was in Christ. It does not say, God was Christ.
What a refreshing day when you meet others who accept what is written in its entirety and understand its implications.
barley
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