Is slavery wrong?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ April 24 2014,20:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2014,13:06) Dude, face it……. we are both stubborn.  I will not give you the satisfaction of “admitting” that I spoke incorrectly when I technically DIDN'T.   Notice the word “choice.”  I would argue it's not a great choice and not much of a choice but it is a choice.

Yes David,

I realize that the man who sold himself into slavery made a choice, while the members of the conquered nation made no such choice.

I realize the difference between the two. But that difference doesn't change what I said, or show it to have been “incorrect”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ April 24 2014,20:59)

We may call both slaves. But they were not the same. They were treated differently with a different set of rules. I'm sure we agree on this at least.

Yep,

We agree on that, David. Still not seeing where I spoke “incorrectly”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ April 24 2014,21:02)

If they were not to do slave labor I wonder what exactly makes them a slave.  If ownership is the sole requirement then my dog is a slave. And perhaps my child is a slave.

Now who's “confused about the difference”?  

A slave is a HUMAN BEING who is either forced into slavery, or who SELLS HIMSELF into it.

A dog is not a HUMAN BEING.  And your child is neither forced into slavery to you, nor did your child sell himself into slavery to you.

You are spending way too much time trying to make sure I spoke “incorrectly”, David.  Better to just move on and try to find someone who wants to discuss FORCED slavery with you.

(Make sure they know from the start that you personally aren't interested in discussing VOLUNTARY slavery.   )

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2014,05:59)

Quote (david @ April 24 2014,20:59) We may call both slaves.  But they were not the same.  They were treated differently with a different set of rules.  I'm sure we agree on this at least. Yep, We agree on that, David.  Still not seeing where I spoke “incorrectly”.

You really only spoke incorrectly when you said:

Not “hired servants”, but legitimate SLAVES. They were from that moment on OWNED by the person to whom they sold themselves.”

Although called slaves they were to be treated like hired workers. And they weren't owned from that moment on, as if to say forever.  They had a choice to leave a few years later, or on the jubilee if that came sooner.

We can call them both slaves but the rules and treatment weren't the same at all.  They weren't “enslaved,” or to be treated cruelly or to be used for “slave labor.”  

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2014,06:05)

Quote (david @ April 24 2014,21:02) If they were not to do slave labor I wonder what exactly makes them a slave.  If ownership is the sole requirement then my dog is a slave. And perhaps my child is a slave. Now who's “confused about the difference”?   A slave is a HUMAN BEING who is either forced into slavery, or who SELLS HIMSELF into it. A dog is not a HUMAN BEING.  And your child is neither forced into slavery to you, nor did your child sell himself into slavery to you. You are spending way too much time trying to make sure I spoke “incorrectly”, David.  Better to just move on and try to find someone who wants to discuss FORCED slavery with you. (Make sure they know from the start that you personally aren't interested in discussing VOLUNTARY slavery.   )

I was thinking the same of you. You are spending an enormous amount of time trying to prove yourself right. Feels like something god councelled job against doing.

“A dog is not a HUMAN BEING. And your child is neither forced into slavery to you, nor did your child sell himself into slavery to you.”

But my statement was IF ownership is the sole idea behind being a slave then how is a child not a slave? What choice did the child have in the matter?
True, I do to make the child do slave labour. But the israelite slaves were not supposed to do slave labour either. So if ownership is so important in your definition of slavery how are children not slaves?

Isn't treatment of the “slave” also somewhat related to them being defined as a slave. And if so, the Israelites were treated very differently than the slaves they enslaved.

[david]

Quote

a slave is a HUMAN BEING who is either forced into slavery, or who SELLS HIMSELF into it.

Now if you could define slavery we would know what a slave is.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ April 28 2014,22:13)

You really only spoke incorrectly when you said: Not “hired servants”, but legitimate SLAVES. They were from that moment on OWNED by the person to whom they sold themselves.” Although called slaves they were to be treated like hired workers. And they weren't owned from that moment on, as if to say forever. They had a choice to leave a few years later, or on the jubilee if that came sooner.

One person who SELLS HIMSELF to another is a LEGITIMATE SLAVE, David. Read the definition on page 43 of this thread.

And, from the moment they SOLD THEMSELVES to another person, they were slaves from that moment on.

My meaning of “from that moment on” is: From the very moment they sold themselves to another person, they were that other person's slave.

From that very moment, they ceased to be a free man, because they became a slave. For some, that “moment on” might have only lasted a week. For others, perhaps a year or two. For others, it lasted until their death.

So you have STILL not showed me where I spoke “incorrectly”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ April 28 2014,22:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2014,06:05) You are spending way too much time trying to make sure I spoke “incorrectly”, David. I was thinking the same of you. You are spending an enormous amount of time trying to prove yourself right.

You've got it twisted, David.

You spoke out of anger (or whatever) about us not confining ourselves to talking about only what YOU wanted to talk about. In the process, you misspoke, claiming that I was “incorrect” about something I said.

So here's the difference:

1. YOU are trying awfully hard to prove that your first erroneous statement was correct. YOU are the one spending an enormous amount of time trying to prove YOURSELF right.

2. I, on the other hand, had a false accusation leveled against me, and am only asking for the PROOF of what you accused me of.

Can you see the difference?

At any rate, I still haven't seen that proof – and all the while you continue to try to prove yourself right anyway.

[terraricca]

now,the question “IS SLAVERY WRONG “ YES IT IS BUT IN THE WORLD WE LIVE IN FOR SOME A VOLUNTARY SLAVERY COULD MEAN A WAY TO SURVIVE ,

BUT SOME COULD BE BETTER OFF THAN OTHERS DEPENDING OF WHAT THEY KNOW OR TRADE THEY CAN DO ;OR THE ABILITY TO LEARN ,

THE JUDGMENT OF GOD GOES LIKE THIS ;IF YOU LIVE WITHOUT GIVEN MERCY TO OTHERS ;YOU WILL NOT GIVE MERCY EITHER ,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2014,05:37)

now,the question “IS SLAVERY WRONG “? YES IT IS………

So then God was “wrong” when He condoned owning slaves in scripture?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,07:29)

Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2014,05:37) now,the question “IS SLAVERY WRONG “? YES IT IS……… So then God was “wrong” when He condoned owning slaves in scripture?

Mike

who says that God was wrong

you see the problem from the problem ,sin as enter into the world ,we have to live with the consequences ,

when God save some but put them in slavery to his nation ,

it looks more to me that he save them than anything else ,

people are save by the Jews after all ,

understand that the men where the guilty ones so they die for what they did ;fight against God's people ,and God's will.

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,13:19)

Quote (david @ April 28 2014,22:13) You really only spoke incorrectly when you said: Not “hired servants”, but legitimate SLAVES. They were from that moment on OWNED by the person to whom they sold themselves.” Although called slaves they were to be treated like hired workers. And they weren't owned from that moment on, as if to say forever.  They had a choice to leave a few years later, or on the jubilee if that came sooner. One person who SELLS HIMSELF to another is a LEGITIMATE SLAVE, David.  Read the definition on page 43 of this thread. And, from the moment they SOLD THEMSELVES to another person, they were slaves from that moment on.   My meaning of “from that moment on” is:  From the very moment they sold themselves to another person, they were that other person's slave. From that very moment, they ceased to be a free man, because they became a slave.  For some, that “moment on” might have only lasted a week.  For others, perhaps a year or two.  For others, it lasted until their death. So you have STILL not showed me where I spoke “incorrectly”.

Mike,

I'm not sure I care too much about a definition of “slave” from a dictionary.

Lev 25:40
“‘If your brother who lives nearby becomes poor and he has to sell himself to you, you must not force him to do slave labor. He should be treated like a hired worker, like a settler. He should serve with you until the Jubilee year.”

Le 25:53
“He should continue to serve him year by year as a hired worker; and you should see to it that he does not treat him cruelly.”

The word “slave” and the word “servant,” the same. Aren't they? Isn't this like messenger/angel where the translator decides?

The Israelite “slaves/servants” were to be treated like “Sakir” [“hired” (man/worker)]

While they may be called a “slave/servant” the bible (and not a dictionary) specifies that they:

Were to be treated like a HIRED servant. (Unlike slaves)
Weren't to be forced to do “slave labor” (unlike slaves)
Weren't to be treated cruelly. (Unlike slaves)
Could be set free in time. (Unlike slaves)

I think it was you saying the Israelite slaves weren't hired workers, when the bible says they were to be treated like hired workers, combined with the fact that you call them legitimate slaves but don't seem to distinguish the vast differences anywhere, as if to say they were the same, that at the very least creates an overwhelming feeling of wrongness.

If the distinguishing feature of slavery is merely selling a person or yourself to another, then what of those who were taken as slaves?
No contract has been formed. I would argue that ownership is also not too clear in that case. (If someone steels me they might think they own me, but I would feel differently. A penetentuary does not own it's prisoners does it?) The only thing making them slaves is forced slave labour and treatment, two things that the Israelite “slaves/servants” didn't have to contend with.

If the Israelite “slaves” were slaves but not treated like slaves, then this is where I feel you are wrong, if merely because you state they are legitimate slaves without even implying the vast differences.

Mike, I'm going to say you are a prisoner. But, you won't be treated like the other prisoners. In fact, I'm not even going to put you in prison. Now saying you are a legitimate prisoner because called a prisoner, without pointing out the lack of legitimate ness, seems to be in error, if only because of the silence about the differences.

Again my question is: what is YOUR definition of a slave?

[terraricca]

JOSEPH WAS SOLD AS A SLAVE ,BUT LATHER BECAME A SLAVE WITH GREAT ABILITIES GIVEN BY GOD ,AND SO FREE HIMSELF TO BECOME THE SECOND TO PHARO

A SLAVE IS SOMEONE THAT AS LOST IS ABILITY TO GO FREELY ,AND AS A SLAVE YOU MUST WORK FOR YOUR OWN SHELTER AND FOOD IN THE MASTER HOUSE WITHOUT PAY,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2014,20:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,07:29) Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2014,05:37) now,the question “IS SLAVERY WRONG “? YES IT IS……… So then God was “wrong” when He condoned owning slaves in scripture? Mike who says that God was wrong when God save some but put them in slavery to his nation , it looks more to me that he save them than anything else ,

So then God WASN'T wrong to “save” those people by making them slaves?

So if Canada was conquered, and you were enslaved by the conquering nation, couldn't you look at that slavery as a “good thing” – since it could be that God was “saving” you instead of letting you be eliminated altogether?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2014,22:42)

Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2014,20:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,07:29) Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2014,05:37) now,the question “IS SLAVERY WRONG “? YES IT IS……… So then God was “wrong” when He condoned owning slaves in scripture? Mike who says that God was wrong when God save some but put them in slavery to his nation , it looks more to me that he save them than anything else , So then God WASN'T wrong to “save” those people by making them slaves? So if Canada was conquered, and you were enslaved by the conquering nation, couldn't you look at that slavery as a “good thing” – since it could be that God was “saving” you instead of letting you be eliminated altogether?

Mike

that could a way to see things ,

but I see it with Gods people and nation ,because some nations were given to other nations for their wickedness ,

I see this like in this world few have access to the truth of scriptures freely easy,but most people in the world do not ,and so live as slaves of wickedness ,and violence ,some are help and can escape to better countries with more freedom but yet stay slave by their own ignorance of those countries ,but now have access easier to God's word ,we can see God at work through his angels ,we do not see the hearts but God does

[terraricca]

Mike

I also have to add that slavery in it self is wrong from God point of view ,but sins we live in sin we have to pay a prize for our corruption ,

God pick and chose the way for us ,not the other way around

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ May 01 2014,23:00)

While they may be called a “slave/servant” the bible (and not a dictionary) specifies that they: Were to be treated like a HIRED servant. (Unlike slaves) Weren't to be forced to do “slave labor” (unlike slaves) Weren't to be treated cruelly. (Unlike slaves) Could be set free in time. (Unlike slaves)

I recently watched The Butler, a movie with Forest Whitaker in the lead role.

He and his father worked in the fields, doing “slave labor”.  When his father was murdered, he was promoted to the position of “house nigger” – according to the terminology of the day.

From that moment on ( ), he was:

[Wakeup]

Princess.

Thanks for asking.

The scripture is the Word of God;Jesus is the Word of God .John 1.

The spirit in the scripture is the flesh of Christ. We need to eat that flesh by seeking, so we can adopt that same spirit,and walk in it.

See John 6:48–58.

No man can come to the Father but by me. No man can come to know God, but by seeking the scriptures.

The spirit of truth is in those scriptures.(the spirit of truth)(comforter).

 

wakeup.

[david]

So nick is blocked?

mike seems to be gone.  Is it just t8 that moderates?

this question of slavery I find interesting.

How something can be considered moral in the past, but today be viewed as grossly immoral by the world.  And often when asked, it’s explained that those were different times, so slavery was okay–because it was popular or common.  But popularity does not make something moral.

I’m interested in an idea many have likely heard: is something moral because god says it is, or does god say something is moral becasue it is moral?

in other words, if god said lying was moral, would lying be moral?  Or if god didn’t say rape was immoral, would rape not still be obviously immoral?  Is it arbitrary?  If it is not arbitrary, then what is it based on?  And if it is based on something outside of God, then it seems like god is just delivering a message, one we could discern ourself if we knew how he came to it.

if god doesn’t condemn slavery but regulates, he seems to be saying it’s okay morally.  Jesus never spoke against it but used it in many illustrations.  From gods standpoint, slavery does not seem to be immoral.  Where does morality come from?

 

 

[terraricca]

hi

I believe slavery (work without pay nor any compensation) is wrong always was wrong in the eyes of God ,

voluntary/for a reason is more common even today ,also exploitation of the more poorer among us ,

the first commandment tells all but we cannot give to God what he ask in his first commandment only through our connection with our fellow man can we please him in this first commandment ,

and the morality of all things rely in our own hands either we are the abuser or the loving kind ;

13
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.
14
For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

[Author]

Posts