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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2014,12:37) Quote (david @ April 08 2014,23:35) While I hold to some semi-conspiracy like ideas about how central banks and international bankers rule the world and have turned us all into debt slaves…….
Conspiracy?
Can you say “Rothschild”? Or “Federal Reserve”?
Yes I can. The Rothschild family owns the world. And I think they control world bank probably. Fort Knox. What gold? It's all going to china. Germany wants their gold back. Too bad, it's gone.
I just acknowledge that when you start talking about that stuff you will be labelled a nut. I've seen countless videos suggesting that slavery never went away but shifted to what it is today. But, comparing now and then the freedom is much much greater and I don't get beaten regularly so I have difficulty comparing the two, and I'd rather stick to actual literal slavery.Again with me about the nit picking.
EXODUS 21:26,27
“If a man strikes the eye of his slave man or the eye of his slave girl and he destroys it, he is to let the slave go free in compensation for his eye. And if he knocks out the tooth of his slave man or of his slave girl, he is to let the slave go free in compensation for his tooth.”I believe it's eye for eye with fellow Hebrews, as is seen in verses 24-25, but not so with the eyes of foreign slaves. The deal was if you knocked out a slaves teeth or blinded them, the slave gets to go free.
I'm really not sure if the eye for eye thing was for Hebrew slaves.
But I do know that with Hebrews it was eye for eye, but with slaves (probably foreign slaves) if you take out their eye, your eye was fine and not taken out, but instead the slave gets to go free.Quote (david @ April 09 2014,20:20) Mike. I'm not sure if you read the first ten pages of this discussion, but I don't think anyone really cares too much about the Hebrew slaves……………….
I think I only read the post where you mentioned the Trinity – and then I started posting. Perhaps I should have done what it says in the HN Rules, and read some of the discussion before commenting.Anyway, my comment about Israelite slaves was to Kerwin – and you're not the boss of what kind of slavery Kerwin and I can talk about in a SLAVERY thread. So chill out, Hitler.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2014,12:34) Quote (david @ April 08 2014,23:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2014,01:53) Quote (david @ April 03 2014,23:10) I keep trying to ask that we here discuss only the former………
David,Poor Israelites could become real, live, legitimate SLAVES of another person by selling themselves to that other person.
If I own my house but my house goes back to the bank in six years do I really own my house? It feels more like a rental situation.While the non-Israelites were called the possession or property of the owners I'm not sure that is said of the Hebrew slaves. Is it? I'm not sure.
Dude,Why are you nit-picking? You brought up SLAVERY, and then scolded me for talking about Israelites who sold themselves into SLAVERY.
Deuteronomy 15
12 If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free.16 But if he says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your slave for life.
I don't know if Israelite slaves were ever called possessions or property of their owners, but I would imagine that if you bought something, you own that something, and it is therefore your property.
I understand what you're saying about a “rental agreement”, but some of these slaves apparently chose to be owned by their master for life.
Quote Why are you nit-picking? You brought up SLAVERY, and then scolded me for talking about Israelites who sold themselves into SLAVERY. See this is what I'm trying to tell you mike. What you say above is wrong. If you had read the pages before you would know I didn't bring up “slavery,” a washy washy word that some would use to describe me and you. Rather, I brought up “forced slavery,” specifically of the non-Israelites by the Israelites. I am only ever really talking about “hired worker” type slavery to state that it's very different from the forced slavery.
These are two very separate things. And people have this frustrating tendency to mix them up over and over almost seemingly purposefully, or as if they are blissfully unaware on purpose.
David,
I like reading your comments here, and wish you would visit more often…….. but you are a bit of a control freak.
Discussions have their own flow, and one thing often leads to another NATURALLY.
Go read the 6th post on page 45. You'll see that you are not the ONLY person in this discussion, and that I said something to Kerwin that went with the natural flow of this discussion.
It's okay if YOU don't want to talk about Israelites selling themselves into slavery – but who are you to tell me and Kerwin that WE can't talk about it in a SLAVERY discussion? Who are you to SCOLD me about what I said to Kerwin? You didn't have to comment on “voluntary slavery” if you didn't want to. Just don't tell us that WE can't talk about it.
As far as “forced slavery” is concerned, I've said what I had to say. I cannot possibly condemn something that Jehovah Himself clearly condoned.
As long as the owner remembers that God loves MERCY, and expects the same from us, no matter how much “higher” we are than another person, I have nothing against forced slavery.
As for woman, I believe they were specifically made by God FOR man, and believe our current “enlightened” state of equality has made a mess of many things.
I long for the days of old.
Quote (david @ April 10 2014,08:47) Again with me about the nit picking. EXODUS 21:26,27
“If a man strikes the eye of his slave man or the eye of his slave girl and he destroys it, he is to let the slave go free in compensation for his eye. And if he knocks out the tooth of his slave man or of his slave girl, he is to let the slave go free in compensation for his tooth.”I believe it's eye for eye with fellow Hebrews, as is seen in verses 24-25, but not so with the eyes of foreign slaves. The deal was if you knocked out a slaves teeth or blinded them, the slave gets to go free.
I'm really not sure if the eye for eye thing was for Hebrew slaves.
But I do know that with Hebrews it was eye for eye, but with slaves (probably foreign slaves) if you take out their eye, your eye was fine and not taken out, but instead the slave gets to go free.
David,That would be the law against physically abusing your slaves.
Quote (david @ April 10 2014,08:26) Mike. Yes, some chose to remain with their masters. EXODUS 21:2-6
“If you buy a HEBREW slave, he will serve as a slave for six years, but in the seventh year, he will be set free without paying anything. If he came by himself, he will go out by himself. If he is the husband of a wife, then HIS WIFE MUST NOT GO OUT WITH HIM. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, THE WIFE AND THE CHILDREN WILL BECOME HER MASTER'S, and he will go out by himself. But if the slave should insist and say, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my sons; I do not want to be set free,’ his master must bring him before the true God. Then he will bring him up against the door or the doorpost, and his master will pierce his ear through with an awl, and he will be his slave for life.”So you are a slave and have a wife and children also owned by the master. The rules are this:
You may leave after 6 years, but your family stays. What do you do? I'm sure some wanted to stay. These were men that sold themselves into slavery by choice. So some would want to stay. But even IF you wanted to leave, how hard would it be leaving your wife and children behind. Tough choice.If I kidnap you and put you and your family in prison and then tell you that you may leave if you wish but your family stays, you may find yourself wanting to stay.
But none of this matters to me. These were the Israelite “slaves” who had the option to leave after 6 years and were given presents when leaving and were supposed to be treated like brothers and not cruelly. I'm more interested in FORCED labour, slavery.
Footnote to this: if it was the jubilee year than the children and wife also get to leave with you. But this is once every 50 years.
David,The wive was most likely Hebrew as well but she was not allowed to go free on Jubilee which is interesting. On the other hand her husband chose to sell her and himself and their children into slavery in the first place. I am going to say poverty was worse than slavery.
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:18) I am going to say poverty was worse than slavery.
I'll see your poverty, and raise you death.Given a choice of being conquered by another nation and being killed, starved to death, or doing manual labor for room and board, I'll choose the latter.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2014,05:03) David, I like reading your comments here, and wish you would visit more often…….. but you are a bit of a control freak.
Discussions have their own flow, and one thing often leads to another NATURALLY.
Go read the 6th post on page 45. You'll see that you are not the ONLY person in this discussion, and that I said something to Kerwin that went with the natural flow of this discussion.
It's okay if YOU don't want to talk about Israelites selling themselves into slavery – but who are you to tell me and Kerwin that WE can't talk about it in a SLAVERY discussion? Who are you to SCOLD me about what I said to Kerwin? You didn't have to comment on “voluntary slavery” if you didn't want to. Just don't tell us that WE can't talk about it.
As far as “forced slavery” is concerned, I've said what I had to say. I cannot possibly condemn something that Jehovah Himself clearly condoned.
As long as the owner remembers that God loves MERCY, and expects the same from us, no matter how much “higher” we are than another person, I have nothing against forced slavery.
As for woman, I believe they were specifically made by God FOR man, and believe our current “enlightened” state of equality has made a mess of many things.
I long for the days of old.
I know discussions have their flow. The basic flow formula is this:
A topic is started.
3 posts later we are talking about the trinity.
Then a free for all.While I am usually frustrated when topics go on tangents, in this case I'm frustrated when people are continually confusing two things: forced slavery and what the Israelites had going among themselves.
I would barely call that “slavery” as we use that English word today. You may as well be discussing employees. From the first post it's clear that this thread is about forced slavery.
Everyone is of course free to discuss whatever they wish but if you or others confuse the two, I am going to mention it.
“Why are you nit-picking? You brought up SLAVERY, and then scolded me for talking about Israelites who sold themselves into SLAVERY.”–mike
Wrong.
I brought up “forced slavery,” actual slavery.
Then you began to discuss the hired worker type servant slaves (not comparable).
And then I likely pointed out that they are not the same.Maybe I'm the only one who sees a vast difference between the two.
Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2014,11:18) Quote (david @ April 10 2014,08:26) Mike. Yes, some chose to remain with their masters. EXODUS 21:2-6
“If you buy a HEBREW slave, he will serve as a slave for six years, but in the seventh year, he will be set free without paying anything. If he came by himself, he will go out by himself. If he is the husband of a wife, then HIS WIFE MUST NOT GO OUT WITH HIM. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, THE WIFE AND THE CHILDREN WILL BECOME HER MASTER'S, and he will go out by himself. But if the slave should insist and say, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my sons; I do not want to be set free,’ his master must bring him before the true God. Then he will bring him up against the door or the doorpost, and his master will pierce his ear through with an awl, and he will be his slave for life.”So you are a slave and have a wife and children also owned by the master. The rules are this:
You may leave after 6 years, but your family stays. What do you do? I'm sure some wanted to stay. These were men that sold themselves into slavery by choice. So some would want to stay. But even IF you wanted to leave, how hard would it be leaving your wife and children behind. Tough choice.If I kidnap you and put you and your family in prison and then tell you that you may leave if you wish but your family stays, you may find yourself wanting to stay.
But none of this matters to me. These were the Israelite “slaves” who had the option to leave after 6 years and were given presents when leaving and were supposed to be treated like brothers and not cruelly. I'm more interested in FORCED labour, slavery.
Footnote to this: if it was the jubilee year than the children and wife also get to leave with you. But this is once every 50 years.
David,The wive was most likely Hebrew as well but she was not allowed to go free on Jubilee which is interesting. On the other hand her husband chose to sell her and himself and their children into slavery in the first place. I am going to say poverty was worse than slavery.
OkBut the point that was addressed was that some chose to remain with their masters.
Kerwin can you see how me holding your family might make you choose to remain with me?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2014,12:34) Quote (david @ April 08 2014,23:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2014,01:53) Quote (david @ April 03 2014,23:10) I keep trying to ask that we here discuss only the former………
David,Poor Israelites could become real, live, legitimate SLAVES of another person by selling themselves to that other person.
If I own my house but my house goes back to the bank in six years do I really own my house? It feels more like a rental situation.While the non-Israelites were called the possession or property of the owners I'm not sure that is said of the Hebrew slaves. Is it? I'm not sure.
Dude,Why are you nit-picking? You brought up SLAVERY, and then scolded me for talking about Israelites who sold themselves into SLAVERY.
Deuteronomy 15
12 If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free.16 But if he says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your slave for life.
I don't know if Israelite slaves were ever called possessions or property of their owners, but I would imagine that if you bought something, you own that something, and it is therefore your property.
I understand what you're saying about a “rental agreement”, but some of these slaves apparently chose to be owned by their master for life.
I think I understand what has been happening here.Most people haven't studied this very much and simply don't know which verses are applied to Israelite “”slaves”” and which are applied to the forced labour actual slaves.
Yes, some of these slaves (the Israelite ones) had a choice (sort of).
The captured slaves, the foreign slaves did not. They were property passed down. Only hope was to be beaten and have your teeth knocked out, to go free.
And as I've tried to point out, for many Israelite slaves, there wasn't much of a choice either. It must be hard to leave your wife and children.What’s happening here is that people can't recognize that, what was considered right or acceptable in one age is not in another, hence the evolution of the scripture written by males, reflecting how males think.
But because of the religion that God is the author of the Bible, it's inconsistencies must be ironed out. Square peg, round hole.
You all are speaking of the system of this world
which God did not set up.(satan is the king of this world).
In Gods system all will be equal;there will be no masters nor slaves.Luke 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Slaves do exist even today; but this is the system of this world,set up by satan.
God did not create this system,but since we are in this system,God is just dealing with what has been set up by men.
He never created slaves;but men did.God was just organising his people according to a system
that is of this world.Not his own system of rule.In God's kingdom there will be no slaves.
Two different kingdoms;one of men, and one of God.
We can not blame God for a system that men has created.wakeup.
Quote (david @ April 14 2014,00:09) Everyone is of course free to discuss whatever they wish but if you or others confuse the two, I am going to mention it.
I don't think anyone on this entire site is “confused” about the difference between forced slavery and voluntary slavery.That being said, if I decide later to talk to someone else about voluntary slavery on this thread, you are free to just ignore those posts as if they weren't even there………. like you could have done the first time I was talking to Kerwin about it.
Quote (Colter @ April 14 2014,07:44) What’s happening here is that people can't recognize that, what was considered right or acceptable in one age is not in another………..
It's not just different “ages”, Colter. It also has to do with different “cultures” within the same ages.And I think all of us on HN are able to recognize what you say we can't.
all
let it be known that the day Adam sinned he as made the decision to go his own way ; MEN'S WAY” and it will take for God as he wishes the time to bring back men to him in his own way ;
in the mean time ;crimes,abuses ,and what not are committed by men who disregard God's laws and will ,and there as well they will pay the price for it ,
THOSE ARE THE COSTS TO PAY FOR BEING A SINNER ,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2014,06:32) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:18) I am going to say poverty was worse than slavery.
I'll see your poverty, and raise you death.Given a choice of being conquered by another nation and being killed, starved to death, or doing manual labor for room and board, I'll choose the latter.
Mike,I agree as do a vast number of people. A few choose death while more rebel in ways they feel might not get them killed.
I think there is child slavery, where parents sell their children, in some countries today.
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