Is salvation by us, or of God?

Participant

gene
you do it again ,Jesus says that we would be happy that he overcame,it is because he show s that it is possible for is followers to do the same,
your influence theory in connection with free will is non applicable no connection,our choices are all related to our knowledge in our possession all a way to the end of our live ,so we may change course until we die,
so as our understanding progresses we can see things differently as we have seen it wen we were young and change as we grow older,but it still our free will who made the choice.

January 17, 2010 at 9:13 pm#170632

Participant

Hi people,

I just came across this where Co says:

Quote

When discussing “free will” you state …”I do not know what definition Choosenone uses”. Are there different definitions of free will? No where in scripture is “free will” mentioned, therefore I do not have a definition of it, because there is no context to define it in.

There are many places in the scriptures where “Free Will” is mentioned – and a definition is not hard to find – simply put it is the ability of one to make a rational intelligent and considered decisions about a matter based on one's own perception of the situations and matter being considered WITHOUT DIRECT INFLUENCE from another sentient source AND OWNING the responsibility of or for the outcome of those decisions.

Animals only have a very limited amount of FREE WILL. All things created by Man have no Free Will (Man is working on that under the influence of Satan). God has created man with FREE WILL and that is why he was able to sin. God wants us to exercise our free will, do what is righteous in his sight, to love one another and to Worship and love him because we can see the virtue of the outcome our decisions AND take the responsibility if we are wrong or the outcome is not good. God didn't program us like we were to be robots.

Need I explain more?

January 17, 2010 at 9:29 pm#170634

Participant

Free Will:

Philemon 1:14 … but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

2 Corinthians 8:3 … I assure you that by their own free will they have given all they could, even more than they could afford. …

Ezekiel 46:12 …when the prince maketh a free-will burnt-offering, or free-will peace-offerings, to Jehovah, …

Plenty more…

“Free Will” can be lead towards “Influenced Will” where the motives of another is heavily factored into the decision making outcome. Of course, this is not always a bad thing – depend on the rest of the situation but none the less the outcome is still the responsibility of the first person:

Satan influenced the Free Will of eve to Sin
Eve influenced the Free Will of Adam to Sin

Adam claimed that it was Eve's fault
Eve claimed that it was Satan's fault

January 17, 2010 at 10:03 pm#170636

chosenone

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 18 2010,08:13)

Hi people,

I just came across this where Co says:

Quote

Need I explain more?

Hi JustAskin.
In your post you say …”There are many places in the scriptures where “Free Will” is mentioned – and a definition is not hard to find”.
Since this defination is 'not hard to find', I would be pleased if you would post some scripture for me that use this phrase (free will)???
Thank you.

Blessings.

January 17, 2010 at 10:29 pm#170638

Participant

Chosenone, I hope you found them above your last post. I must have added them as you were posting yours.

January 17, 2010 at 11:07 pm#170639

Participant

JA………….Eve did (NOT) exercise a (FREE WILL) but an (INFLUENCED WILL) Satan beguiled Her that is a (INFLUENCE), not FREE AT ALL. Actually Adam and EVE Had no WILL, there eyes were closed and did not exercise there own Separate WILLS. The words your are trying to equate as “FREE” Will offering , is a Offering from the ones own self, without (OUTSIDE) influence but was given from ones own self WILL, but that will is still influenced (INTERNALLY). There is NO SUCH THING AS A “FREE WILL”. ONLY INFLUENCED WILLS EXISTS.

Your definition of a rational will only shows it it not a FREE WILL , but and INFLUENCED WILL. If GOD had created man to have a so-called “FREE WILL”. Then why did Jesus put his will to death and why didi He say “Not my will but thy will be done, and why did Jesus in prayer say 'THY KINGDOM COME (THY) (WILL) BE DONE IN THE EARTH IT IS IN HEAVEN” And why did Paul say.

ROM 7:18…> For i know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing: for or (because) to WILL IS PRESENT WITH ME; but to perform that which is good (I) find not. Most think they can find what's good by their own so-called “FREE WILL” Choices, Pure hog wash. But Paul says “for the good that (I) would, (I) do not: but the evil which (I) would Not, that (I) do.

Seams Paul doesn't think much of HIS WILL much less a so-call “FREE ONE. You have not shown one Scripture where it says we have a “FREE WILL”. A will is not a WILL if it is FREE FROM INFLUENCE EVEN GOD'S WILL is a (INFLUENCED) WILL by his own council. IMO

January 17, 2010 at 11:26 pm#170640

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 18 2010,04:40)

Gene,

what you call Jesus' influenced will is what some call his free will. They would state that Jesus subjected his free will to God. In other words he denied himself

Kerwin………Indeed he did ,He put HIS WILL to death completely by not doing it at all, all the way to the death on the cross or stake. He emptied OUT his WILL to complete Subjection to the The WILL of GOD. “The son of man came not to do (HIS) WILL , but the will of him who sent HIM”. and again , “it is written in the volume of the books concerning me I have come to do (THY) WILL O GOD”> The PRIDE of Man want to believe, man BY his so-called “FREE WILL” choices saves himself. WE were saved while we were yet sinners, it has nothing to do with our so-called “FREE WILLS” because there is no such thing as a FREE WILL> With GOD or Man. God does not exercises a FREE WILL, He exercises a WILL after HIS OWN (COUNSEL) a INFLUENCED WILL not a “FREE WILL”. IMO

January 18, 2010 at 12:49 am#170646

Participant

hi gene
twisting the scriptures again,what Paul talks about in ROM 7-18 that you quote,talk about the conflict between are carnal needs and emotions and the spiritual righteousness of God.
and he explain the fight between both of them ,even Jesus find this but over come it and told his apostles that they are able to do the same to vanquish the world.

you really do not want to feel guilty for you sins, but if you do God s will by your own free will you show him that you love him and like a father to his son he will grant you his grace;
Lk 15:21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
Lk 15:22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.
Lk 15:23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate.
Lk 15:24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

this show you that you have a free will ,you see the son decided to go ,until he realize that it was better to come back to his father and changed ,but it was of his free will that son came back.

January 18, 2010 at 2:02 am#170657

Participant

Terriacca……….If your trying to us the Periodical son story there was nothing Free About it, He wanted to do what his own lusts wanted, he was not free but under the control of LUSTS for HIMSELF. HIS Father just let him go and do what he wants to do, but when his poverty came he them realized how well he had it at home and that (INFLUENCED) He to return. It had nothing to do with (FREE WILLS) Terraricca, no one is twisting scripture he but you. Show where GOD or Jesus ever said we have “FREE WILL”. IN SCRIPTURES, before you start accusing other of twisting scriptures. IMO

January 18, 2010 at 2:40 am#170661

Participant

gene
who force the son to go and to come back???has he nothing to do with it

was he obligated to follow his lust or he choose to do so.?

was he forced to come back or he choose to come back ??

free will of choice is fundamental. if there is a choice there is free will to choose.otherwise you are a robot

January 18, 2010 at 2:53 am#170662

Participant

terraricca………….Hunger and Poverty, thats what forced him back, Free WILL had nothing to do with it.

January 18, 2010 at 2:59 am#170663

Participant

gene

you try to say if i would be place in similar condition i would act the same ?if you do, you would be totally wrong,

some people will not turn thieves because poverty this is our choice and we are free to take them.

January 18, 2010 at 5:16 am#170680

chosenone

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2010,21:02)

Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 17 2010,11:40)

kerwin.
When discussing “free will” you state …”I do not know what definition Choosenone uses”. Are there different definitions of free will? No where in scripture is “free will” mentioned, therefore I do not have a definition of it, because there is no context to define it in.
But Gods will is mentioned many times, the one that in context comes to mind is Eph.1:11 …”according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will”,
I think this quite plainly says that His will (God), and His only, “Who is operating all”, is the only one Who has “free will”. If “He” is operating “ALL”, what is left for “us” to operate?

I don't know what 'your' definition of “free will” is, but can anyone take it seriously if it has no scripture backing it?

Blessings.

So according to you Jesus did not go bathroom because scripture does not state he does. I point this out as you make an absurd argument that is based on similar reasoning.

The question is not if the words “free will” are in scripture but if the concept is. I assure you the concept of individual choice is in scripture. If you do not see it then you are truly blind. On the other hand hard determinism is not there.

How can you know something is not in scripture if you do not know what it is?

Hi kerwin & JustAskin.
Your anology of Jesus and the 'bathroom' is absurd, I won't reply to that.
As an example, I'll use the trinity theory. Many scriptures say “God is one”, yet no scripture states that God is a 'trinity'. Yet many do accept this scripture.
As in scripture of Gods will, we see that He is “operating ALL in accord of the counsel of His will”. (Eph.1:11). Yet nowhere in scripture does it say mankind has “free will”. So you trust your own reasoning, and ignore scripture.

Blessings.

January 18, 2010 at 5:56 am#170683

Participant

CO
Isa 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.
Isa 57:17 I was enraged by his sinful greed;
I punished him, and hid my face in anger,
yet he kept on in his willful ways.

Ps 19:13 Keep your servant also from willful sins;

Isa 57:17 I was enraged by his sinful greed;
I punished him, and hid my face in anger,
yet he kept on in his willful ways

Jn 4:23 “But a new time is coming. In fact, it is already here. True worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. They are the kind of worshipers the Father is looking for.
Jn 4:24 “God is spirit. His worshipers must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

Da 8:13 Then I heard a holy angel speaking. Another holy angel spoke to him. He asked, “How long will it take for the vision to come true? The daily sacrifices will be stopped. Those who refuse to obey God will be destroyed

Ro 6:16 Don’t you know that when you give yourselves to obey someone you become that person’s slave? You can be slaves of sin. Then you will die. Or you can be slaves who obey God. Then you will live a godly life.

Eph 2:2 You used to live as sinners when you followed the ways of this world. You served the one who rules over the spiritual forces of evil. He is the spirit who is now at work in those who don’t obey God

Heb 11:31 Rahab, the prostitute, had faith. So she welcomed the spies. That’s why she wasn’t killed with those who didn’t obey God.
Jas 4:7 So obey God. Stand up to the devil. He will run away from you.

Ps 78:8 They would not be like their people who lived before them.
Those people were stubborn. They refused to obey God.
Their hearts were not true to him.
Their spirits were not faithful to him

Ro 11:30 At one time you did not obey God. But now you have received mercy because Israel did not obey.

Tit 1:10 Many people refuse to obey God. All they do is talk a lot. They try to fool others. No one does these things more than the circumcision group

Heb 4:11 So let us make every effort to enjoy that rest. Then no one will fall into sin by following the example of those who didn’t obey God.

1Pe 3:20 Long ago they did not obey. God was patient while Noah was building the ark. He waited, but only a few people went into the ark. A total of eight were saved by means of water.

Ac 5:29 Peter and the other apostles replied, “We must obey God instead of people!

Ro 15:5 Our God is a God who strengthens you and cheers you up. May he help you agree with each other as you follow Christ Jesus.
1Co 1:12 Here is what I mean. One of you says, “I follow Paul.” Another says, “I follow Apollos.” Another says, “I follow Peter.” And still another says, “I follow Christ.”

and vineyards. It has olive trees and honey. So choose life! Don’t choose death

Pr 1:29 You hated knowledge.
You didn’t choose to have respect for the LORD.
Pr 3:31 Don’t be jealous of a man who hurts others.
Don’t choose any of his ways.
Pr 8:10 Choose my teaching instead of silver.
Choose knowledge rather than fine gold.
Pr 12:26 Godly people are careful about the friends they choose.
But the way of sinners leads them down the wrong path

Isa 56:4 The LORD says,
“Suppose some eunuchs keep my Sabbath days.
They choose to do what pleases me.
And they are faithful in keeping my covenant

1Pe 4:3 You have spent enough time in the past doing what ungodly people choose to do. You lived a wild life. You longed for evil things. You got drunk. You went to wild parties. You worshiped statues of gods. The Lord hates that.

How long will you choose to be ‘unclean’?”

Jer 21:8 “Tell the people, ‘The LORD says, “I am offering you a choice. You can choose the way that leads to life. Or you can choose the way that leads to death

no you will not find free will in the bible ,but if you can choose this mean you are free to pick.
if you can choose you are responsible for your choice.
so this means you are free and will means power to make action and so choose.

January 18, 2010 at 2:38 pm#170703

Participant

To chosenone,

Point of order 1: I do not have anything to do with toilet reference (I didn't like the reference either)

Point of order 2: You asked me to point to verses in scripture pertaining to “Free Will” but then ignored my imput – What gives – where you hoping that I wouldn't find any or would you like to criticize the one I showed you?

Point of order 3: You have misread my statements about eve – It IS refering to INFLUENCED WILL – but you CHOSE to misinterpret what i wrote (Because you wanted to make a point of saying that I was wrong? – This is called Inference by the way…)

Anyway, what is the big thing with “Free Will” it is hardly a purely scriptural matter – it has been debate to death on the phylosophical level for decades as well.

What is not to understand about it: “You strain at a gnat yet swallow a Camel”!!

January 18, 2010 at 4:14 pm#170711