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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 17 2011,00:14) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Tell me what part of that says Jesus must STILL BE a man in heaven right now? Quote ,the man Christ Jesus,
Hi Kerwin,Who is the mediator between men and God, Kerwin? Is it not the man who at one time laid down his life for us?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men: Christ Jesus – the man who gave himself as a ransom for all.
In the above rendering, all I've done is placed “Christ Jesus” in front of “the man” so you can see how I understand it. The understanding is the same whether “Christ Jesus” comes before or after “the man” in the sentence. I just rearranged it so you can read it like I do in my mind: The man who at one time gave his life is now the mediator.
If this scripture doesn't insist that the man who once died is still dead, then why must it insist that the man who once died is still a man?
mike
Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 18 2011,04:28) Kerwin! What is a ransom? Irene
Irene,In Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 it the word “ransom” is a translation of” lytron” which means:
Quote 1. the price for redeeming, ransom
a.paid for slaves, captives
b.for the ransom of life
2. to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sinsIn 1st Timothy 2:6 the word “ransom” is translated from “ antilytron” which is defined as”
Quote 1. what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom Mike,
Quote Our posts to each other have a habit of growing ever longer day by day. I think that sometimes with that much info to process, thoughts get lost just because of the amount of thinking we have to do. So I'm responding to only one part of your response for now.
Acceptable.Quote Kerwin, I'm not sure what point your above words are attempting to make. Are you implying that Paul really DID get his gospel from men, but because those men were speaking the words of God, he could say that he got it NOT from any man? You are correct.
Quote Please help me to understand your view, Would you tell someone that scripture is the word of men or would you tell them it is the word of God?
What would an atheist say?
Mike,
Quote Who is the mediator between men and God, Kerwin? Is it not the man who at one time laid down his life for us? We agree on that point!
Quote For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men: Christ Jesus – the man who gave himself as a ransom for all. In the above rendering, all I've done is placed “Christ Jesus” in front of “the man” so you can see how I understand it. The understanding is the same whether “Christ Jesus” comes before or after “the man” in the sentence. I just rearranged it so you can read it like I do in my mind: The man who at one time gave his life is now the mediator.
That is a reasonable paraphrase.
Quote If this scripture doesn't insist that the man who once died is still dead, then why must it insist that the man who once died is still a man? It does not explicitly state that Jesus is a dead man thus leaving it an open question.
It does explicitly state he is a man thus not leaving it an open question.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2011,12:48) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 18 2011,04:28) Kerwin! What is a ransom? Irene
Irene,In Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 it the word “ransom” is a translation of” lytron” which means:
Quote 1. the price for redeeming, ransom
a.paid for slaves, captives
b.for the ransom of life
2. to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sinsIn 1st Timothy 2:6 the word “ransom” is translated from “ antilytron” which is defined as”
Quote 1. what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom
To all:My source is Strong's.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2011,17:48) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 18 2011,04:28) Kerwin! What is a ransom? Irene
Irene,In Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 it the word “ransom” is a translation of” lytron” which means:
Quote 1. the price for redeeming, ransom
a.paid for slaves, captives
b.for the ransom of life
2. to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sinsIn 1st Timothy 2:6 the word “ransom” is translated from “ antilytron” which is defined as”
Quote 1. what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom
Kerwin! The ransom is Jesus life…. So why do you think Jesus took on His old Human body after His resurrection?
? In order for the ransom to take effect His body had to stay in the grave. Just like God took care of Moses body, He did Jesus body…..
The blood of Jesus was pored out on all mankind for our sins. A body without the blood cannot live…..
Jesus is a Spirit Being like He was before He became a man…. Just like Scriptures say…..Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
In 1 Corinth. 15 it also explains it what will happen to us and what did happen with Jesus. The whole Chapter is the resurrection Chapter.
1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
The last verse tells us plainly that the last Adam which represents Jesus was made a quickening Spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
Grasp this Kerwin, the Lord from Heaven. Does that sound like you heard it before? John said
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jesus came down from Heaven… to do the will of His Father that sent Him…
And then He asked His Father this
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
All of these Scriptures go so nicely together…. because thais is the truth, even by Jesus own words….
John 1:1, Col. 1:14 and rev. 3:14 all go along side of these Scriptures also…. they all fit….
The firstborn of all creation, and then through Jesus God created all.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
He is also the head of the Church, the firstborn of the death…. That is the New Creation, which we who are born again are part of…..
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
And then is also says that
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Peace Irene
Irene,
Quote The ransom is Jesus life. Agreed!
Quote So why do you think Jesus took on His old Human body after His resurrection? His mortal human body was changed into an immortal human body with power, according to the saintly spirit, just as an oak seed changes into an oak sprout in the ground.
Quote Romans 1
King James Version (KJV)4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Quote 1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
His disciples bear witness that he had the form of a human being and had flesh and bone.
God also promised David that he would have a son to sit on his throne forever and scripture testifies that Jesus is David’s Son according to the flesh.
Quote Romans 1
King James Version (KJV)3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Quote In order for the ransom to take effect His body had to stay in the grave. Scripture states his ransom is his life and we know he died on the cross and therefore he gave up his mortal body there as well for his soul was no longer housed within it after his death.
Quote Just like God took care of Moses body, He did Jesus body….. Why would God bother taking care of a body if that body is not needed?
Quote The blood of Jesus was poured out on all mankind for our sins. The soul is in the blood.
Quote A body without the blood cannot live….. Are you stating that there is blood in a spirit body or are you stating a spirit body is not alive?
Quote Jesus is a Spirit Being like He was before He became a man…. Just like Scriptures say….. I cannot put a finger on a scripture which explicitly states Jesus is a spirit being.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2011,01:05) Mike, Quote Who is the mediator between men and God, Kerwin? Is it not the man who at one time laid down his life for us? We agree on that point!
Quote For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men: Christ Jesus – the man who gave himself as a ransom for all. In the above rendering, all I've done is placed “Christ Jesus” in front of “the man” so you can see how I understand it. The understanding is the same whether “Christ Jesus” comes before or after “the man” in the sentence. I just rearranged it so you can read it like I do in my mind: The man who at one time gave his life is now the mediator.
That is a reasonable paraphrase.
Quote If this scripture doesn't insist that the man who once died is still dead, then why must it insist that the man who once died is still a man? It does not explicitly state that Jesus is a dead man thus leaving it an open question.
It does explicitly state he is a man thus not leaving it an open question.
STATEMENT: Our mediator is Christ Jesus.QUESTION: Who is this “Christ Jesus”?
ANSWER: The man who died as our ransom.
Now, the bolded part says Jesus WAS dead. It does not say he is STILL dead. On this we agree.
That same bolded part also clarifies that at the time he died, Christ Jesus WAS a man. It does not say he is STILL a man.
Kerwin, I said in my OP that 1 Tim 2:5 could be taken TWO different ways. I understand that you want it to say, “Our Mediator is the STILL HUMAN BEING Christ Jesus”. And I also understand that the words COULD easily be understood that way.
I wish that Paul had said, “Our Mediator is Jesus Christ, the one who was existing in the form of God, but then emptied himself and was made as a man. And after suffering as a man to the point of dying as our ransom, he became the life-giving spirit I received my gospel from, because I received it from no man…………..and because humans consist of flesh, and flesh cannot inherit God's Kingdom.”
All of these are things Paul DID say in the scriptures. I wish he could have put them all together in 1 Tim 2:5-6 so you too could understand what I understand.
Kerwin, I tell my 10 year old son all the time to remember that Jesus is the greatest MAN who ever lived. In fact, I had him read the JW book, “The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived”.
But here's the thing: I KNOW that Jesus is not STILL a human being in heaven. The very thought of a human being floating around in space and ruling over the spirit beings makes me laugh. But even knowing this, I can say that Jesus IS the greatest man who ever lived.
Can you understand this? Our Mediator IS the man who died for our sins. He is no longer dead, and he is no longer a man. But he IS the man who at one time died for us.
You need not reply to this post, for you see 1 Tim your way, and I see it my way. I will continue to work this discussion from the Galatians and 2 Corinthians scriptures, for there is no sense in us beating a dead horse by discussing a scripture that could be understood TWO different ways.
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2011,00:57) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Are you implying that Paul really DID get his gospel from men, but because those men were speaking the words of God, he could say that he got it NOT from any man? You are correct.
Hi Kerwin,WHICH men did Paul receive his gospel from?
I did not receive my gospel from any man, but from Pat.
Kerwin, do you think of “Pat” as a man or a women when you read those green words?
mike
Nu.23:19 ” God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2011,04:49) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2011,00:57) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Are you implying that Paul really DID get his gospel from men, but because those men were speaking the words of God, he could say that he got it NOT from any man? You are correct.
Hi Kerwin,WHICH men did Paul receive his gospel from?
I did not receive my gospel from any man, but from Pat.
Kerwin, do you think of “Pat” as a man or a women when you read those green words?
mike
Mike,I did not receive the gospel from any book, but from Scripture.
You understand what I am stating even though scripture is also a book because you know Scripture is the word of God.
If I know that Pat is a prophet of God then I know that you learned your gospel from God when you state Pat.
Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 19 2011,02:31) Kerwin ! I gave you plenty of Scriptures, its up to you if you believe them or not……Peace Irene
Irene,Do you believe scripture when it states that Jesus' human body is the seed of David?
If you do then you know his body did not change from a spirit body into a human body but is in fact the desendent of David's body.
Do you believe that God will keep his promise to David to have one of his seed sit on the throne of David?
If Jesus' body is a spirit body then it is not a seed of David's body for Davud was bit a spirit being.
Like me, you have more to learn in order to better understand what scripture states so try hard to think outside the box that Satan is always striving to keep us in.
May God reveal all his truth to each of us.
Kerwin
Quote Do you believe scripture when it states that Jesus' human body is the seed of David? witch scripture is saying that ?
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,15:53) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 19 2011,02:31) Kerwin ! I gave you plenty of Scriptures, its up to you if you believe them or not……Peace Irene
Irene,Do you believe scripture when it states that Jesus' human body is the seed of David?
If you do then you know his body did not change from a spirit body into a human body but is in fact the desendent of David's body.
Do you believe that God will keep his promise to David to have one of his seed sit on the throne of David?
If Jesus' body is a spirit body then it is not a seed of David's body for Davud was bit a spirit being.
Like me, you have more to learn in order to better understand what scripture states so try hard to think outside the box that Satan is always striving to keep us in.
May God reveal all his truth to each of us.
Do you know what it means to be a “SEED” of some man?
Jesus was not procreated by any man, he was created by God, but born of a woman, Mary, who was of the seed of David.
No ordinary human is without sin, therefore no ordinary human could have done what Jesus did.If you would READ the Bible, you would know that. There is no BOX, only the one you put yourself in.
Georg
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 19 2011,11:17) Kerwin Quote Do you believe scripture when it states that Jesus' human body is the seed of David? witch scripture is saying that ?
Pierre
Pierre,Quote Romans 1
King James Version (KJV)3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Romans 1
Quote Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 3concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2011,09:08) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2011,15:31) Quote And when you read this……………..
Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;………….don't you think it distinguishes our FLESH masters from Jesus Christ, who is apparently NOT a FLESH master?
No, this is not meant to not distinguish Jesus from all of our flesh masters here on earth. It means that we should do service unto our masters here on earth as if we were doing the service unto him. He is our Lord.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,So we DO understand that scripture the same way!
What you call “our masters here on earth” are the same people Paul calls “our masters ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”, right?
So if “our masters ACCORDING TO THE FLESH” refers to our HUMAN BEING masters, then the same cannot be said about Jesus. Because we are to serve these HUMAN BEING masters AS IF we were serving our “NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH” Master.
Can you see how I understand it, Marty? We are to serve our FLESH masters as if we were serving our SPIRIT Master.
Anyway, that's how I understand it.
mike
Hi Mike:There is a difference he now has a spiritual body, and he is the head of the church, and our human masters have a mortal body, and may or not be saved.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Pastry @ Aug. 19 2011,15:14) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,15:53) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 19 2011,02:31) Kerwin ! I gave you plenty of Scriptures, its up to you if you believe them or not……Peace Irene
Irene,Do you believe scripture when it states that Jesus' human body is the seed of David?
If you do then you know his body did not change from a spirit body into a human body but is in fact the descendant of David's body.
Do you believe that God will keep his promise to David to have one of his seed sit on the throne of David?
If Jesus' body is a spirit body then it is not a seed of David's body for Davud was bit a spirit being.
Like me, you have more to learn in order to better understand what scripture states so try hard to think outside the box that Satan is always striving to keep us in.
May God reveal all his truth to each of us.
Do you know what it means to be a “SEED” of some man?
Jesus was not procreated by any man, he was created by God, but born of a woman, Mary, who was of the seed of David.
No ordinary human is without sin, therefore no ordinary human could have done what Jesus did.If you would READ the Bible, you would know that. There is no BOX, only the one you put yourself in.
Georg
Georg,Thank you for aiding Irene to answer my post.
Romans 1:3 in the KJV explicitly states Jesus “was made of the seed of David according to the flesh”
I agree that Mary is the seed of David.
So Jesus' tent of flesh was made of the seed of David, who is Mary, Just like Eve's tent of flesh was made of Adam.
Surely you can see that is what Paul was stating about Jesus in Romans 1:3.
Kerwin
you mean this;Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,? INV
Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;KJV
are those two scriptures not saying the same thing ?
Quote Do you believe scripture when it states that Jesus' human body is the seed of David? do you think that what you mean is the same thing that those scriptures, saying
Pierre
Mike:
We are addressing:
Quote 1 Timothy 2
King James Version (KJV)5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.There are four elements to this sentence in the KJV though some translations break it off at three, which I find more in line with the context. I will thus address only those three.
Element 1: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men.
Element 2: the man Christ Jesus
Element 3: Who gave himself a ransom for allYou argue that if you remove “the man” from Element 2 and place it in Element 3 then Element 2 the sentence is no longer saying that Jesus the mediator is “the man”. Can you see the flaw in that argument?
Element 1 is the base teaching of the sentence while Element 2 and 3 give more detail to the teaching. Therefore removing either of the two elements removes detail from the teaching but does not render it false. So it follows that the following three teachings are true.
Teaching 1: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men.
Teaching 2: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Teaching 3: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, who gave himself a ransom for all.
In teaching 1 and 3 you are not informed the mediator is a man as that detail is not included in the elements present.
In teaching 2 it is clear the mediator is not only a man but that, that man is Jesus Anointed. This is because that information is included in that element.
Why does God mention the word man in 1 Timothy 2 at all except to emphasize that Jesus in his role of mediator is a man?
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