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Mike: I don't know how you describe a “Man”! As a natural man takes on the Spirit of God through knowledge and understanding he transforms him self to higher awareness unto God. At that high level of awareness a man can transform his body into any form or condition. The Bible calls it “transfigured” when Jesus met with Moses and Elijah on the mountain. They were real enough that Peter was ready to set up camp for them all. Since Moses and Elijah could come here in whatever form you want to call it and Jesus could move from here to there when desired I would say the body is of no consequence one way or the other. The dense physical body cannot go through walls without some form of transformation. Jesus also occasionally used teleportation from place to another to shorten the time or distance.
IMO, we are only limited by coverings or veils of untruth that say, can't do, in our minds. Much of the thinking of this world nullifies the abilities we have in either realm. So, is Jesus still a man in Heaven?……Jesus is whatever he chooses to be….. anywhere he chooses to go….. and with whatever composite of body he chooses to have!!! IMO, TK
Quote (ftk @ Aug. 13 2011,15:40) Pierre: That post above is incorrect!! The term flesh and blood is referring to a carnal way to God. Its in reference to the old testament law. Romans 8:1….There is therefore now no condemnation(judgment) to them which are in Christ Jesus(by faith) who walk, not after the flesh(old cove. laws, rules, rituals etc.,) but after the Spirit.(words of God) V2….For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus HATH MADE US FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH….! V3….for what the law(old cove.) could not do(make men perfect)…..God did sending his own son…and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh!!
V5….for to be “carnally minded”(earthly, physical, works, deeds, efforts etc.,)is death. To be spiritually minded(words from God through Jesus) is life and peace.
V8….SO THEN THEY THAT ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD!! Are you in the flesh?….V9…..BUT YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH(old cove. law) but in the Spirit IF SO BE IT THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU!!
V14…for as many as are led by the Spirit of God they are the sons of God.
Pierre you cannot read Corinthians and Romans and not know that we are dead(through the symbolic picture of Baptism) to the sin and death of the old religious order and resurrected to new, born again, renewed life in Christ by faith in Gods words through Jesus. Blessings, IMO, TK
TKwhat Paul explains is that prior to Christ there was no covenant to give everlasting life ,only a better and long life,
but with Christ sacrifice the new covenant brings eternal life,
for all men that produces the fruits there of,
our flesh and blood have not changed,but the way we see and the reasons for our actions are changed,
and the truth as been revealed to us by Christ and his disciplesand it is in those truth of God that we have to seek for the grace to be obtain,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2011,00:05) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 14 2011,11:33) It does not state or make the point that Jesus gave up being a man.
1 Cor 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.The last Adam BECAME a life-giving spirit, Kerwin. If a man BECOMES a spirit, then he is no longer a man.
Just like when the spirit being Jesus BECAME a man for a time, he was no longer a spirit being at the time he was a man.
Now the man has once again BECOME a spirit being, and so is no longer a man.
mike
Mike,There is a scripture that call the spirit of a man a man. The first Adam was his physical body made from the earth of the ground while the secound Adam is the breath of God that is spirit and gives the physical body life.
What context do you use to come to the belief the secound Adam is Jesus?
Mike,
Quote 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. Can you HONESTLY tell me that you are unable see that sentence as saying: “THE MAN JESUS CHRIST, WHO ONCE DIED FOR US, IS NOW THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN”?
If you can't, then you'd better read it again and again. Because the way YOU and Marty understand it CONTRADICTS this scripture:
What you believe is there, is not. What is there is that God is describing the one mediator between God and mankind by calling him a man who has laid down his life for the ransom of all mankind.
That meaning ties in with Hebrews 5:1-4 for Jesus is one of every high priest that is taken from among men, and not angels. As a man he can have compassion on us for he himself was compassed with infirmity.
Quote Hebrews 5
King James Version (KJV)1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.Here he is once again called a man in his role of High Priest.
Quote Hebrews 10
King James Version (KJV)12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.So it is clear that Jesus was take from among the human race to be The High Priest and that he is still a human being and so qualified to mediate between men and God.
Quote Kerwin, did Paul receive his gospel from a MAN? YES or NO? Quote 2 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.When Paul wrote his good news, was he writing from private interpretation or as he was moved by the Spirit of God?
Quote Did Paul receive his gospel from Jesus Christ? YES or NO? Quote John 14:10 King James Version (KJV)
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Quote It is impossible to answer “NO” to the first question, “YES” to the second, and STILL claim that Jesus is a MAN. You ask essay questions since the yes/no questions you wrote do not allow for spiritual answers. I have given you spiritual answers. Do you understand them?
Similar yes/no spiritual questions are “Did Paul receive the gospel by human interpretation? “ and “Did Paul receive the gospel from God doing his works in Jesus Anointed? “ The answer to the first is no and to the second is yet.
Why do you think Paul was making any other point than that he spoke the word of God?
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 16 2011,07:30) Quote (ftk @ Aug. 13 2011,15:40) Pierre: That post above is incorrect!! The term flesh and blood is referring to a carnal way to God. Its in reference to the old testament law. Romans 8:1….There is therefore now no condemnation(judgment) to them which are in Christ Jesus(by faith) who walk, not after the flesh(old cove. laws, rules, rituals etc.,) but after the Spirit.(words of God) V2….For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus HATH MADE US FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH….! V3….for what the law(old cove.) could not do(make men perfect)…..God did sending his own son…and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh!!
V5….for to be “carnally minded”(earthly, physical, works, deeds, efforts etc.,)is death. To be spiritually minded(words from God through Jesus) is life and peace.
V8….SO THEN THEY THAT ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD!! Are you in the flesh?….V9…..BUT YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH(old cove. law) but in the Spirit IF SO BE IT THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU!!
V14…for as many as are led by the Spirit of God they are the sons of God.
Pierre you cannot read Corinthians and Romans and not know that we are dead(through the symbolic picture of Baptism) to the sin and death of the old religious order and resurrected to new, born again, renewed life in Christ by faith in Gods words through Jesus. Blessings, IMO, TK
TKwhat Paul explains is that prior to Christ there was no covenant to give everlasting life ,only a better and long life,
but with Christ sacrifice the new covenant brings eternal life,
for all men that produces the fruits there of,
our flesh and blood have not changed,but the way we see and the reasons for our actions are changed,
and the truth as been revealed to us by Christ and his disciplesand it is in those truth of God that we have to seek for the grace to be obtain,
Pierre
Pierre: The flesh, carnal way to attempt to please God is by actions/deeds/works produced in life. That's the old way.The New Way, New Testament/Will/Covenant of Christ is by faith.
Faith pleases God. Faith in what God says. God's words are spirit of life that come through Jesus. Spirit is life.
What is created by the words of God through Jesus, on the inside of a man, in his mind and in his heart, is what that man will produce or express on the outside, to the world. What a man believes within, will be expressed through words and actions on the outside. Nothing covered shall not be revealed, nothing hidden shall not be brought to light.
If a man, today, chooses to believe he has sin, or is in sin, or sins every day, or sins when he doesn't even know he is sinning, THAT MAN WILL EXPRESS SIN IN THE ROTTEN FRUIT HE EXPRESSES.
If a man believes Gods words through Jesus, that wash us clean of sin, take away our sin, show us the way to God, give us life inside, purify us, give us worthiness, righteousness, forgiveness, and make us whole in Christ, then the “fruit” that is expressed on the outside is the fruit of the Spirit of God.
Trying to do good works or deeds or speak kindly to please God is attempting to enter Christ another way. Any type of effort on mans part to make himself perfect or do “something” that pleases God is totally unacceptable. The true cleansing must come by faith, within, from the inside of the man first.
The life-force within is what will be produced without! Jesus makes the inside clean first, then the fruit is good(no evil)!
The truth was not available in the old covenant. Religious Man had distorted the truth to such a point that people became slaves to the church. Works, deeds, rituals, tithes, all sorts of demands from even on old widowed ladies, religion was relentless in its demands from the people. That is why Jesus came to a dark world. To enlighten the world to the truth of God. To save mankind from further destruction.
Now Jesus has done the work and shown the way to the truth, God. He has given the complete package to mankind. It is finished for them if they believe it. IMO, TK
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2011,04:27) Marty, All I've done is to point out to you that 1 Tim could be taken one of TWO different ways. One way is that Jesus is STILL a man in heaven. The other way is that the man who died is now our mediator in heaven. Do you agree that it can be understood EITHER way? If you are to be honest, you have to.
Now……………which one of those TWO ways is supported by the other scriptures? Only ONE of them is, Marty. So you can either understand 1 Tim 2:5-6 in a way that CONTRADICTS other very clear scriptures……………..or you can understand it in a way that DOESN'T have scripture contradicting itself.
The choice is yours, for I've already made my choice.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike:1 Timothy 2:5 can only be taken “one way” and that is that there is one God and ond mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.
Love in Christ,
MartyI can't believe that so many believe that Jesus stayed to be a man in Heaven. Mike has given all several Scriptures in 1Corinth. 15…. It talks about he resurrection of Christ. Those that believe in the preexisting of Jesus can understand what John is speaking of in
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
God cannot look at flesh and blood bodies.
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
The last Scripture should tell you that Jesus came from Heaven, and John 17:5 Jesus is asking to be there again…
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
If you would understand what a ransom is you would not think that Jesus is a man in Heaven. The body had to stay dead in order for the ransom to take affect….otherwise it would not be a ransom….
Peace Irene
TK
Quote Trying to do good works or deeds or speak kindly to please God is attempting to enter Christ another way. Any type of effort on mans part to make himself perfect or do “something” that pleases God is totally unacceptable. The true cleansing must come by faith, within, from the inside of the man first. The life-force within is what will be produced without! Jesus makes the inside clean first, then the fruit is good(no evil)!
just show supporting scriptures to what you say,
Pierre
TK
Quote If a man, today, chooses to believe he has sin, or is in sin, or sins every day, or sins when he doesn't even know he is sinning, THAT MAN WILL EXPRESS SIN IN THE ROTTEN FRUIT HE EXPRESSES. just show supporting scriptures
Pierre
tk
Quote What is created by the words of God through Jesus, on the inside of a man, in his mind and in his heart how is it created? when ?
scriptures please
Pierre
tk
Quote The truth was not available in the old covenant. Religious Man had distorted the truth to such a point that people became slaves to the church. Works, deeds, rituals, tithes, all sorts of demands from even on old widowed ladies, religion was relentless in its demands from the people. That is why Jesus came to a dark world. To enlighten the world to the truth of God. To save mankind from further destruction. what is the truth ?
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2011,23:31)
What you believe is there, is not. What is there is that God is describing the one mediator between God and mankind by calling him a man who has laid down his life for the ransom of all mankind.
Hi Kerwin,You say that what I believe is NOT there, but then go on to state the facts exactly like I've been saying. Look at your words that I bolded. That's what I've been saying: The MAN who DID (past tense) lay down his life is NOW the mediator between men and God.
Tell me what part of that says Jesus must STILL BE a man in heaven right now?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2011,23:31)
That meaning ties in with Hebrews 5:1-4 for Jesus is one of every high priest that is taken from among men, and not angels.
First of all, Heb 5 speaks of priests who WERE taken from among men. It doesn't exclude the angels from having their own priests to God. Secondly, it doesn't exclude Jesus, or Aaron for that matter, from being resurrected as a spirit being and continuing to be a priest of God. All it teaches is that OF the priests who were from among men, God is the One who chose them.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2011,23:31)
Here he is once again called a man in his role of High Priest.12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
The word “man” is not in the Greek. The Greek says “this one”.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2011,23:31)
1. So it is clear that Jesus was take from among the human race to be The High Priest……………2. …………….and that he is still a human being and so qualified to mediate between men and God.
1. That is correct.
2. How do you come to that conclusion? Yes, he was taken from among the human race, but why would only a human be qualified to mediate between God and men? Angels of God have been doing it for thousands of years.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2011,23:31)
You ask essay questions since the yes/no questions you wrote do not allow for spiritual answers. I have given you spiritual answers. Do you understand them?
Kerwin,I asked questions to which the CLEAR and DIRECT answers are right there in the scriptures I listed.
What YOU do is to try to tell me all the time that I'm somehow not spiritual enough to “read between the lines” and come to the same, sometimes asinine, conclusions you have come to.
The first question was: Kerwin, did Paul receive his gospel from a MAN? YES or NO?
Here is the answer: “I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man……..”
Therefore, the CORRECT answer to my first question is “NO”.
The second question was: Did Paul receive his gospel from Jesus Christ? YES or NO?
Here is the answer: “…….I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.”
Therefore, the CORRECT answer to my second question is “YES”.
The only conclusion that can be arrived at is:
Paul did NOT receive his gospel from ANY MAN. But he DID receive it from Jesus Christ. Ergo, Jesus Christ is not a MAN anymore.
That is the end of the story, whether any of you care to believe it or not.
Jesus said that the resurrected would be like the angels. How many angels are HUMAN BEINGS guys?
Also Kerwin, when you read the words “according to the flesh” or “according to his humanity” regarding Jesus, what do you think that means? For you don't think Jesus ever existed as ANYTHING OTHER THAN flesh, right? You think he started his existence as flesh, and is STILL flesh in heaven, right? So exactly what do you think those phrases mean then?
mike
Quote (ftk @ Aug. 15 2011,04:42) Mike: I don't know how you describe a “Man”!
Read the OP of the thread, Tim.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2011,23:30) What context do you use to come to the belief the secound Adam is Jesus?
Are you asserting that the last Adam does NOT refer to Jesus Christ? If so, why?Also, you didn't really address my points.
Kerwin, if a human being BECOMES a spirit being, is he still a human being?
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2011,09:06) Hi Mike: 1 Timothy 2:5 can only be taken “one way” and that is that there is one God and ond mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.
Sorry Marty,You are simply wrong, as Galatians 1:1 and 1:12 CLEARLY show you. But let me hear your answer to what I've just asked Kerwin:
When you read this………..
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh……….what do you think it means? Because you also think Christ was nothing BUT flesh, right? You think he began his existence as flesh, and is STILL flesh, right? So why say “according to the flesh”?
And when you read this……………..
Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;………….don't you think it distinguishes our FLESH masters from Jesus Christ, who is apparently NOT a FLESH master?
mike
Mike
Quote What YOU do is to try to tell me all the time that I'm somehow not spiritual enough to “read between the lines” and come to the same, sometimes asinine, conclusions you have come to. It is true that I am convinced your conclusions about Galatians 1:1 and 12 are based on the traditions of man and not on Christ. I am convinced of this because your words do not acknowledge that when a human being speaks the word of God it is not their word but they are instead being carried along by the Spirit of God. In addition your words do not acknowledge that God does his work through Jesus Anointed. If you acknowledged those concepts with your understanding then you would know that the gospel Paul taught did not depend on the traditions of man but is instead depends on the Son of God.
As you have written, enough about those verses, as from what I can see further conversation is useless unless we come to look at them with a similar point of view.
Quote The MAN who DID (past tense) lay down his life is NOW the mediator between men and God. No one disagrees with you that Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross and that it happened in the past but other than that the scripture simply is not worded to mean he gave up being a human being by doing so. Nor in the past have you stated that is the case as instead you have stated elsewhere that Jesus was raised from the dead as a human being and only transformed during his ascension to heaven.
What you seem to see in that scripture is
The Angel who DID (past tense) lay down his life as a human being is NOW the mediator between men and God.
Quote Tell me what part of that says Jesus must STILL BE a man in heaven right now? Quote ,the man Christ Jesus, Quote First of all, Heb 5 speaks of priests who WERE taken from among men. It doesn't exclude the angels from having their own priests to God. Secondly, it doesn't exclude Jesus, or Aaron for that matter, from being resurrected as a spirit being and continuing to be a priest of God. All it teaches is that OF the priests who were from among men, God is the One who chose them. It does say “every high priest” but it is speaking to human being about the High Priests God put over mankind and not of angels.
In Hebrews 5:2 it states why every High Priest is taken from among men and that is why they remain men to represent human beings.
Quote The word “man” is not in the Greek. The Greek says “this one”. I have looked into the matter you brought up about Hebrews 10:12 and I believe you are probably correct that it does not call Jesus a human being but rather makes a more generic reference to him.
Quote 1. That is correct.
2. How do you come to that conclusion? Yes, he was taken from among the human race, but why would only a human be qualified to mediate between God and men? Angels of God have been doing it for thousands of years.Angels did mediate between man and God for the old covenant but the new covenant is superior to the old and the mediator of the new covenant is superior to the mediator of the old. Even in their role as mediators the angels were not the High Priest of that covenant but were deemed unqualified for that role as Hebrews 2:16-18 clearly teaches us.
Quote Hebrews 2
King James Version (KJV)16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Looking above at Hebrews 2:16-18 which makes the same points about Jesus as Hebrews 5:1-4 does about him and about every other human High Priest, it is clear that in order to serve as High Priest of Human beings you must be a human being.
Quote Jesus said that the resurrected would be like the angels. How many angels are HUMAN BEINGS guys? That a human being will still be human being but with the specified characteristics being the same as with angels.
Quote Also Kerwin, when you read the words “according to the flesh” or “according to his humanity” regarding Jesus, what do you think that means? For you don't think Jesus ever existed as ANYTHING OTHER THAN flesh, right? You think he started his existence as flesh, and is STILL flesh in heaven, right? So exactly what do you think those phrases mean then? I think the same thing as when scripture states those words about Paul, as it does in Romans 9:3.
Quote Romans 9:3
King James Version (KJV)3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Hi Mike:
Your comments, scripture, and question:
Quote When you read this………..
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh……….what do you think it means? Because you also think Christ was nothing BUT flesh, right? You think he began his existence as flesh, and is STILL flesh, right? So why say “according to the flesh”?
It means that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. He was not born of the sperm of man like every other man.
And this:
Quote And when you read this……………..
Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;………….don't you think it distinguishes our FLESH masters from Jesus Christ, who is apparently NOT a FLESH master?
No, this is not meant to not distinguish Jesus from all of our flesh masters here on earth. It means that we should do service unto our masters here on earth as if we were doing the service unto him. He is our Lord.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2011,15:31) Quote And when you read this……………..
Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;………….don't you think it distinguishes our FLESH masters from Jesus Christ, who is apparently NOT a FLESH master?
No, this is not meant to not distinguish Jesus from all of our flesh masters here on earth. It means that we should do service unto our masters here on earth as if we were doing the service unto him. He is our Lord.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,So we DO understand that scripture the same way!
What you call “our masters here on earth” are the same people Paul calls “our masters ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”, right?
So if “our masters ACCORDING TO THE FLESH” refers to our HUMAN BEING masters, then the same cannot be said about Jesus. Because we are to serve these HUMAN BEING masters AS IF we were serving our “NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH” Master.
Can you see how I understand it, Marty? We are to serve our FLESH masters as if we were serving our SPIRIT Master.
Anyway, that's how I understand it.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 17 2011,00:14) Mike It is true that I am convinced your conclusions about Galatians 1:1 and 12 are based on the traditions of man and not on Christ. I am convinced of this because your words do not acknowledge that when a human being speaks the word of God it is not their word but they are instead being carried along by the Spirit of God.
Hi Kerwin,Our posts to each other have a habit of growing ever longer day by day.
I think that sometimes with that much info to process, thoughts get lost just because of the amount of thinking we have to do. So I'm responding to only one part of your response for now.Kerwin, I'm not sure what point your above words are attempting to make. Are you implying that Paul really DID get his gospel from men, but because those men were speaking the words of God, he could say that he got it NOT from any man?
Please help me to understand your view,
mike
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