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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,03:01) Pierre, Jesus has no direct father of his body but is a decendent of David and that decent goes through Mary his mother.
God is the Father of his Spirit for he does as God does.
Kerwinaccording to scriptures Jesus did the things that his father did all the time in heaven and on earth
it does not make him God,it just shows a good relationship,and submission from Jesus to his father,and a great love from the father towards the son and from the son to the father ,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2011,20:45) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 07 2011,20:12) Mike I agree ,and this also changed my mind;
the priest shall have to himself the skin of the burnt offering which he hath offered.
Good point Pierre,In fact, the way I understand it, the whole sheep or goat or ram or bull was sacrificed to God, but only a small portion went up in smoke. The rest was used for the feast that all Israel enjoyed. So the sacrifice didn't have to be completely destroyed for it to be a sacrifice.
Anyway, at times like this I know you are a TRUE student of Christ and the scriptures. It is a man who is after nothing but truth that will adjust a view he has held so strongly for so many years. May God bless you!
Oh, and may He also bless Shimmer, who caused me to adjust my understanding in this matter.
peace and love to you,
mike Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,02:57) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:49) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,23:39) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:29) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:49) Mike, Quote You've understood it correctly, Kerwin. Except that Jesus never stopped being a natural descendant of God. So Jesus had a 100% spirit body and a 100% human body when he walked this earth so long ago?
If not then how was he a spirit being that was made into a human being?
I assume the process was reverse as he was ascending into heaven.
kerwinLk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
Lk 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”
Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Pierre,Quote Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, Why did the angel choose to state ” will be called the Son of the Most High” instead of ” will be the Son of the Most High”?
Why did the angel call David the father of Jesus?
Edited to change plural angel to singular.
kerwinWhy did the angel call David the father of Jesus?
scriptures say after king Saul that he will pick a man according to his heart and God picked David,because David heart was for God ,and in this way Jesus his the son of David because he also ad his heart totally for God ,
Why did the angel choose to state ” will be called the Son of the Most High” instead of ” will be the Son of the Most High”?
what is John 1;1 tells you ? would the angel of God say something untrue ?and Col 1;13
can you be called son of God and then say it is not true ?
who fathered Christ ?Pierre
Pierre,Thank you for your answers.
You can call someone something they are not because they are like that something. An example of this is to call John the Baptist Elijah(As his spirit was like Elijah's), to call Peter Satan(as his was like Satan's the incident), or a to call a human being an angel[for acting benevolent).
Kerwinthere is a difference between a prophecy and plain talk
the angel talking to Marry was plain talk,about a event to take place then ,
in the case of the others ;
Quote An example of this is to call John the Baptist Elijah(As his spirit was like Elijah's), to call Peter Satan(as his was like Satan's the incident), or a to call a human being an angel[for acting benevolent). now if you see in the case of Jesus ,all thing are not the same ;
first the angel appears in person to talk of what going to come to be,
and so it happen in a short time ,all as been come to be as it has been foretold ,and so his he the son of God because he as no human father.Pierre
Pierre erroneously asserted:
Quote and so his he the son of God because he as no human father.
David was also God's appointed firstborn Son (Psalm 89:2-27). David had a human father. So Jesus identity as the Son of God had nothing to do with His not having a human father.Put on your thinking cap Peirre.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 10 2011,13:02) Pierre erroneously asserted: Quote and so his he the son of God because he as no human father.
David was also God's appointed firstborn Son (Psalm 89:2-27). David had a human father. So Jesus identity as the Son of God had nothing to do with His not having a human father.Put on your thinking cap Peirre.
KJ
KJno Psalm 89 is a for cast of the times of Christ ,
and your statement is not true ,on the other hand my statement is very true;
now if you see in the case of Jesus ,all thing are not the same ;
first the angel appears in person to talk of what going to come to be,
and so it happen in a short time ,all as been come to be as it has been foretold ,and so his he the son of God because he as no human father.so you will have to look some other place KJ
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,22:49)
So Jesus had a 100% spirit body and a 100% human body when he walked this earth so long ago?
Jesus was made flesh, Kerwin. I assume he had 100% flesh body while on earth.But who was his REAL Father, Kerwin? It was God, who impregnated Mary via His Holy Spirit, right?
And since Mary is a descendant of David, then David is an ancestor of Jesus…………..ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Why do you think the phrase “according to the flesh” is mentioned so often when speaking of Jesus' earthly ancestors?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,22:49)
I assume the process was reverse as he was ascending into heaven.
The flesh body Jesus needed to dwell on the earth as a human being was no longer needed when he ascended from the earth. It was transformed into the new, glorious, spiritual body that Paul speaks of in Phil 3:21.peace,
mikeMike,
Quote Jesus was made flesh, Kerwin. I assume he had 100% flesh body while on earth. I am now confused about what you believe makes someone a spirit being as it was my understanding that you believed it was the body. If his body was 100% human being and 0% spirit being as you apply then how was he both a human being and a spirit being at that time?
Quote The flesh body Jesus needed to dwell on the earth as a human being was no longer needed when he ascended from the earth. It was transformed into the new, glorious, spiritual body that Paul speaks of in Phil 3:21. Then I assume you also believe that the spirit body was transformed into a flesh one when he was conceived in the womb of his mother. Is my assumption correct?
Quote But who was his REAL Father, Kerwin? If you see the spirit as more important than the flesh then the Father of the spirit is more important than the father of the flesh. Never the less both are his real fathers for one sired his flesh and the other sired his spirit.
Quote It was God, who impregnated Mary via His Holy Spirit, right? God created Jesus much as he created Eve but in different locations and from different donors. Jesus was created in Mary from a part of Mary a descendant of David. If I remember correctly scripture states God caused Mary to conceive Jesus but I would have to check it to confirm it is so.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,22:25) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,03:01) Pierre, Jesus has no direct father of his body but is a decendent of David and that decent goes through Mary his mother.
God is the Father of his Spirit for he does as God does.
Kerwinaccording to scriptures Jesus did the things that his father did all the time in heaven and on earth
it does not make him God,it just shows a good relationship,and submission from Jesus to his father,and a great love from the father towards the son and from the son to the father ,
Pierre
Pierre,It is my understanding that you believe God is a spirit being and Jesus is a son of his body which also makes him a spirit being though merely a god. If I am wrong about this then please correct me. Thank you!
Kerwin
Quote I am now confused about what you believe makes someone a spirit being as it was my understanding that you believed it was the body. If his body was 100% human being and 0% spirit being as you apply then how was he both a human being and a spirit being at that time? if this was the case we would have two Jesus Christ one in the flesh on earth and one in heaven as a spirit being ,no ?
so this could not be ,only one but the one that was in heaven is now on earth,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2011,11:37) Kerwin Quote I am now confused about what you believe makes someone a spirit being as it was my understanding that you believed it was the body. If his body was 100% human being and 0% spirit being as you apply then how was he both a human being and a spirit being at that time? if this was the case we would have two Jesus Christ one in the flesh on earth and one in heaven as a spirit being ,no ?
so this could not be ,only one but the one that was in heaven is now on earth,
Pierre
Pierre,If I understood him correctly, Mike told me he believed Jesus was both a spirit being and a human being at the same time.
He did that after I asked him if Jesus stopped being a spirit being and then started being a human being.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,16:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,07:55) Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,23:12) To all, It is sad that so many believe you can have God without Jesus as Scripture clearly states you cannot.
What does that have to do with this thread? Kerwin, do you have a comment about whether or not Jesus is still a human being in heaven?How about you, Tim?
peace,
mike
Mike,My comment is if you believe Jesus is not a human being then you have thrown him out and are attempting to have the Father without the Son. Anyone who reads scripture should be very aware that Jesus being like his brother human beings is important to the message of salvation as Scripture instructs you.
Quote Hebrews 2 King James Version (KJV)
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Quote Hebrews 5 King James Version (KJV)
1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
You have it backwards kerwin, let me show you another scripture that explains it.2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
You see, those who come up in the first resurrection will take on the nature of Christ, a divine nature; not the other way around.
That should also show you what nature Christ is now.I answered this with out checking all the other posts.
Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,16:59) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2011,11:37) Kerwin Quote I am now confused about what you believe makes someone a spirit being as it was my understanding that you believed it was the body. If his body was 100% human being and 0% spirit being as you apply then how was he both a human being and a spirit being at that time? if this was the case we would have two Jesus Christ one in the flesh on earth and one in heaven as a spirit being ,no ?
so this could not be ,only one but the one that was in heaven is now on earth,
Pierre
Pierre,If I understood him correctly, Mike told me he believed Jesus was both a spirit being and a human being at the same time.
He did that after I asked him if Jesus stopped being a spirit being and then started being a human being.
kerwinJesus said, he came to ransom; do you know what he meant by that, and who did he ransom?
Could Jesus have ransomed a human being while being a spirit being?Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,23:27)
If his body was 100% human being and 0% spirit being as you apply then how was he both a human being and a spirit being at that time?
When did I ever say that? He WAS 100% spirit being, then was made 100% human being, then died, was raised 100% human being for 40 days, then was transformed back to 100% spirit being upon his ascension to God's Kindom.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,23:27)
Then I assume you also believe that the spirit body was transformed into a flesh one when he was conceived in the womb of his mother. Is my assumption correct?
Yes.Hi Mike:
You say:
Quote Scripture doesn't record the transformation Jesus underwent as he ascended into heaven. But he left the earth as flesh and blood, and we know those things cannot inherit God's Kingdom. Wrong. He did not have any blood. Kathi already responded and told you what the scripture states.
And you say:
Quote Read Phil 3:20-22 Marty. Paul also hopes to have his lowly body TRANSFORMED into a glorious new spiritual body like the one Jesus has. If Paul's will be TRANSFORMED, and Jesus WAS FLESH, but cannot be anymore, then we must read between the lines and accept that his body was also TRANSFORMED between the time he left the view of the disciples and the time he entered into God's Kingdom. For shortly thereafter, Stephen saw him there at the right hand of his God. The scripture states that he has a spiritual body, and that we also will have a spiritual body when Jesus comes for the church.
As I have said before Mike, you have a vivid imagination. Too much reading between the lines.
As I have already stated the scriptures state the Jesus is the head of the church which is his body. If we as men are members of his body, how can the head be anything other than a man.
And how are you eliminating 1 Timothy 2:5 as not saying that he is still a man in heaven. Is that not where he is our mediator as the High Priest?
Quote 1 Timothy 2:5
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Quote Revelation 1:12And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13and in the midst of the seven candlesticks One like unto the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the breast with a golden girdle.
14His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of fire;
15and His feet like unto fine brass, as though they burned in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters.Quote Hebrews 3
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,
2who was faithful to Him that appointed Him, as also Moses was faithful in all His house.
3For this Man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who hath built the house hath more honor than the house.
4For every house is built by some man, but He that built all things is God.
5And Moses verily was faithful in all His house as a servant, as a testimony of those things which were to be spoken thereafter;
6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His own house, whose house are we if we hold fast the confidence and rejoicing of the hope, firm unto the end.Quote Daniel 7:13
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)13″I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.
Of course, he is still a man. I am still waiting for a scripture from you which states that he is not.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
Wrong. He did not have any blood. Kathi already responded and told you what the scripture states.
Really Marty? He didn't mention having kneecaps in that scripture. Are we to assume that he didn't have kneecaps?I've addressed Kathi's point already.
1. Just because he didn't specifically mention blood does not mean he had none.
2. Forget about the blood and the bones then, and just focus on the “FLESH” part. FLESH cannot inherit God's Kingdom, Marty. Do you agree?If so, then name me one human being who does NOT consist of FLESH.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
The scripture states that he has a spiritual body,
That's right Marty. It is sowed a NATURAL FLESH body, and raised a SPIRITUAL body. As was the first Adam, (FLESH), so are those of this earth. And as is the last Adam (SPIRIT), so are those of heaven.Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
As I have said before Mike, you have a vivid imagination. Too much reading between the lines.
Says the man who would have us believe that Jesus had glory as A THOUGHT IN GOD'S HEAD before the creation of the world! Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
And how are you eliminating 1 Timothy 2:5 as not saying that he is still a man in heaven.
Read what I said about verse 5 AND 6 in my OP of the thread. Then comment on those words, okay? Tell me how I'm wrong. I'll be waiting.Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
13and in the midst of the seven candlesticks One like unto the Son of Man,
So when angels came to earth and appeared to be men, say, before they went up with the flames of the alter, were they truly HUMAN BEINGS, Marty?Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
3For this Man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses,
How does that say Jesus is STILL a human being, Marty?Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His own house, whose house are
Same question.Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
13″I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven,
Same question.Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2011,19:31)
Of course, he is still a man. I am still waiting for a scripture from you which states that he is not.
Again, reference my OP. After you read the scriptures that CLEARLY and WITHOUT MINCING ANY WORDS say that Jesus absolutely ISN'T a human being anymore, then reply, okay?I'll also be waiting for that response.
mike
Mike,
Quote He WAS 100% spirit being, then was made 100% human being, then died, was raised 100% human being for 40 days, then was transformed back to 100% spirit being upon his ascension to God's Kindom. I believe I understand that much correctly.
Quote When did I ever say that? It seems I misunderstood you because I was of the opinion you meant he was both a human being and a spirit being at that time when you stated the following.
Aug. 09 2011,09:04
Quote (Mike Boll @ Aug. 09 2011,09:04) You've understood it correctly, Kerwin. Except that Jesus never stopped being a natural descendant of God. Now what you said has me focusing more on these words of yours.
Quote (Mike Boll @ Aug. 10 2011,06:50) But who was his REAL Father, Kerwin? It was God, who impregnated Mary via His Holy Spirit, right? Are you stating that God is the father of Jesus’ human body?
Hi Mike:
This is 1 Timothy 2:5 along with your comments:
Quote Trinity, 1 Tim 2:5 is likewise the “go to” scripture that “proves” Jesus is STILL a man in heaven. But let's read it again in context: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men………
Now this can be understood that Jesus is STILL a man – which is how most people take it. Or, it could be understood that the man who gave himself as a ransom IS NOW the mediator between God and men.
You say:
Quote Now this can be understood that Jesus is STILL a man – which is how most people take it. Most men have it correct because the scripture states that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus
He is a mediator between God and men as the High Priest in heaven, and that settles the issue as to whether or not he is still a man.
And this:
Quote 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.And here, Paul distinguishes Jesus from the MAN Adam, by teaching that Jesus is now a “life-giving SPIRIT”.
But the Apostle Paul calls Jesus the last Adam
Here it is in context:
Quote 1 Co 15:45And so it is written: “The first man Adam was made a living soul.” The last Adam was made a quickening Spirit. 46However that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven
The Last Adam = the second man.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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