Is Jesus still a man in heaven?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 10 2012,00:57)

Mike, I couldn't find your topic “For Wakeup” Marlin

Hi Marlin,

This will bring you to page 6 of the thread. Read the top post, and let me know if you disagree with the info so far.

peace,
mike

[NickHassan]

Hi,
His role as mediator is shown in Heb 8,9,12

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You have pet peeves about folk saying things that are not written
Does scripture say God and angels are persons?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2012,14:53)

Hi MB, The role of Mediator still is that of the man Jesus Christ.

Nick,

I disagree. I understand 1 Tim 2:5-6 to be saying that the (used to be) man who died for us, is (now) the mediator between man and God.

Would the mediator BETWEEN the French and German nations be a member of one of those nations?

Would the mediator BETWEEN a husband and wife child custody dispute be either the husband or the wife involved in the dispute?

This isn't concrete evidence, but it seems to me that the go-between of God and man would be neither one of those he's going between.

Also, the same author doesn't mince words in Galations 1:1 and 1:11. He tells us point blank that Jesus is NOT a man.

The same author tells us that Jesus became a spirit in 1 Cor 15:45.

The same author tells us “the Lord is that spirit” in 2 Cor 3:17 – the verse that you quote more often than any other.

The same author tells us in 2 Cor 5:1-4 that the elect will give up their earthly (human) tents for spiritual ones in heaven.

We are told that the elect will be like the angels in many ways – and the angels are not human beings.

Nick, it's okay if you and I disagree on this. But I've done the research, and have come to my understanding based on what the scriptures actually say. So disagree if you want to, but I don't need the flippant one-liners suggesting that it was my own human wisdom, imagination, or logic that led me to my understanding. Deal?

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2012,15:03)

Hi MB, You have pet peeves about folk saying things that are not written Does scripture say God and angels are persons?

Scripture describes God and angels as persons, Nick. Persons with feelings, intelligence, their own wills, etc.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
So called gods and other lords [1cor8.5-6] are not of real relevance to those in Christ.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 11 2012,07:39)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2012,21:36) So it appears that Jesus is not adam in Heaven, but anthropos in Heaven. Hi t8, The Greek word “anthropos” refers to a “human being”.  There is another Greek word that distinguishes male from female.  Jesus is called by that word after he was raised, but never by “anthropos”. Don't forget that 1 Cor 15 says “the anthropos FROM heaven”.  It does not say “the anthropos who is IN heaven”.

Good point. It doesn't say man in heaven.

But it does say this:

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

So is that saying that we will bear the 'image of the man' (of heaven)?

“image of the man” or not?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
To draw from Gal 1 that Jesus is not a man is to argue those verses against the many that say he is.
That is not our role but rather to align them and find truth

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2012,16:01)

But it does say this: Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

The second “man” is added in some translations, but the Greek does not have that word in 15:49.

It actually says, “just as we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2012,16:12)

Hi MB, To draw from Gal 1 that Jesus is not a man is to argue those verses against the many that say he is. That is not our role but rather to align them and find truth

That's where you're wrong, Nick.  And that's precisely what I started this thread to show people.  

1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

It was the MAN Jesus Christ who gave himself as a ransom for all men.  No one disputes this scriptural fact.  But this sentence, taken all together, COULD BE saying that Jesus is STILL a man, or it COULD BE saying that the man who died is NOW the mediator in heaven (but not necessarily still a human being).

Which one does it say, Nick?  Did you not just say we must align scripture to find the truth?  Well, which understanding of 2:5-6 aligns with 1 Cor 15:45, Gal 1:1 and 11, and 2 Cor 3:17?

Only one of them.  So, the question is whether or not you are willing to put your money where your mouth is, and follow your own advice.

Are you?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2012,15:11)

Hi MB, So called gods and other lords [1cor8.5-6] are not of real relevance to those in Christ.

There is no scripture in the whole of the Bible that mentions such a thing as a “so-called god”.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,

1Cor8

[Marlin1]

Quote

My point is that it is talking about a PERSON, like you said.  But God is a PERSON, and not a man.  The angels are PERSONS, and not human beings. So the meaning is that no PERSON, except for the Lamb, was able to open the scroll.   The meaning is NOT that no HUMAN BEING/MEMBER OF MANKIND was able to open it. The KJV shouldn't have put “man”, because the gathering was of angels, who are not men.  (Really, if Jesus was the ONLY man in heaven, then of course no MAN except for him could open the scroll.    )

Sorry Mike, I disagree.

Define person
per·son/ˈpərsən/
Noun:
 A human being regarded as an individual.

An angelic being is not a person, it is a being.

Even if someone produced scripture to prove a point to you, you would find the scripture wrong.
Don't you see what you do, you make the bible say what you what and if any one shows you scripture to the contrary, you say that it was wrote wrong.  As if God can't protect His Word.

The angel that Jesus sends to John, to reveal to him the book of Revelations is a MAN.
REV 22:9 †     Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Brethren:
adelphos    {ad-el-fos'}    ajdelfovß    from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); TDNT — 1:144,22; n m

AV  — brother (346)
1) a brother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ

Prophet:
prophetes    {prof-ay'-tace}    profhvthß    from a compound of 4253 and 5346; TDNT — 6:781,952; n m

AV  — prophet (149)
1) in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
2) one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation.
  2a) the O.T. prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death, of Jesus the Messiah.
  2b) of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah
  2c) of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent of the Messiah
  2d) the Messiah
  2e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men.

This angel spoke of, was a MAN.  Yet most people think this angel was a spirit being.  God created angels and they will always be angels.  He created us man and we will always be man.  Just like Jesus, born of a woman, will always be man and He is God.  The God Man.

You want to make Jesus a little god, that is pagan.
Just as the trinity people what to cut God into three people, that also is pagan.

DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

MARK 12:29 †     And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

To have Jesus is to have God, for He is God.
JOHN 14:9 †     Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Marlin

[david]

I found a really weird definition of Person:

Person (ˈpɜːs ə n)

— n
Christianity any of the three hypostases existing as distinct in the one God and constituting the Trinity. They are the First Person, the Father, the Second Person, the Son, and the Third Person, the Holy Ghost

I do not agree with this of course, but it's interesting how they use the word “person.”

[seekingtruth]

“Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom” I agree, but if immortal flesh does not have blood how does that conflict with scripture on flesh entering heaven?

I have asked now on a number of threads for scripture to support the claim that there can be no flesh in heaven, but so far I have only been offered an imaginary transformation at the ascension, and a quote (sometimes altered) that “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”. And as to “our flesh is covered by the new body” only proves that there is still an element of flesh to our spiritual body. Otherwise it would not be covering it, but rather replacing it.

After the resurrection I do not see where we inherit heaven anyway, but that we will stay on earth (with Jesus) in the kingdom of God, at least until the “new heaven and earth” but then what will the new earth be made of?

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 15 For this we declare to you by the Lord's [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!

Why raise the flesh bodies of the departed if He is bringing them with Him and their already soul/spirit?

Please provide scripture, instead of opinions

Wm

[david]

Wikipedia (also interesting):

A person (plural: persons or people; from Latin: persona, meaning “mask”) is a being, such as a human, that has certain capacities or attributes constituting personhood, the precise definition of which is the subject of much controversy.
Prior to the advent of Christianity, the word “persona” (Latin) or “prosopon” (πρόσωπον: Greek) referred to the masks worn by actors on stage. The various masks represented the various “personae” in the stage play, while the masks themselves helped the actor's voice resonate and made it easier for the audience to hear.[1] In Roman law, the word “persona” could also refer to a legal entity. The concept of a “person” was further developed during the Trinitarian and Christological debates of the first through sixth centuries.

[NickHassan]

Hi ST,
Are there any scriptures that mention flesh regarding the heavenly body.
If not should we drop this issue?

[seekingtruth]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2012,13:42)

Hi ST, Are there any scriptures that mention flesh regarding the heavenly body. If not should we drop this issue?

Yes there is: When did Jesus get His new spiritual body?

1 Corinthians 15:  42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.  43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

When does our body receive; incorruption, glory and power? According to the above scripture it's during the act of being raised it becomes a spiritual body. When was Jesus raised?

Matthew 28:6 But he is not here. He has risen from death, as he said he would. Come and see the place where his body was.

Matthew 28:7 And go quickly and tell his followers, ‘Jesus has risen from death. He is going into Galilee and will be there before you. You will see him there.’” Then the angel said, “Now I have told you.”

Mark 16:6 But the man said, “Don’t be afraid. You are looking for Jesus from Nazareth, the one who was killed on a cross. He has risen from death! He is not here. Look, here is the place they put him when he was dead.

Mark 16:14 Later, Jesus appeared to the eleven followers while they were eating. He criticized them because they had so little faith. They were stubborn and refused to believe the people who said Jesus had risen from death.

Luke 24:34 said, “The Lord really has risen from death! He appeared to Simon.”

Luke 24:6 Jesus is not here. He has risen from death. Do you remember what he said in Galilee?

So scripture tells us that Jesus' had His spiritual body after He was raised (but before the ascension) and from His own mouth He said:

Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (once again before the ascension)

So what does scripture tell us that a spiritual body has – FLESH AND BONES.

It seems clear to me what scripture teaches, but as you seem to disagree, please provide me with scripture to show me where I've made my error.

Wm

[NickHassan]

Hi ST,
His resurrection from death was to fulfill the prophetic word about Jonah.
He still had the perished nature of his old body in full view.

None saw him assume his imperishable new body but he will return in glory

[Wakeup]

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 11 2012,16:21)

Quote My point is that it is talking about a PERSON, like you said.  But God is a PERSON, and not a man.  The angels are PERSONS, and not human beings. So the meaning is that no PERSON, except for the Lamb, was able to open the scroll.   The meaning is NOT that no HUMAN BEING/MEMBER OF MANKIND was able to open it. The KJV shouldn't have put “man”, because the gathering was of angels, who are not men.  (Really, if Jesus was the ONLY man in heaven, then of course no MAN except for him could open the scroll.    ) Sorry Mike, I disagree. Define person per·son/ˈpərsən/ Noun:  A human being regarded as an individual. An angelic being is not a person, it is a being. Even if someone produced scripture to prove a point to you, you would find the scripture wrong. Don't you see what you do, you make the bible say what you what and if any one shows you scripture to the contrary, you say that it was wrote wrong.  As if God can't protect His Word. The angel that Jesus sends to John, to reveal to him the book of Revelations is a MAN. REV 22:9 †     Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Brethren: adelphos    {ad-el-fos'}    ajdelfovß    from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); TDNT — 1:144,22; n m AV  — brother (346) 1) a brother 2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman 3) any fellow or man 4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection 5) an associate in employment or office 6) brethren in Christ Prophet: prophetes    {prof-ay'-tace}    profhvthß    from a compound of 4253 and 5346; TDNT — 6:781,952; n m AV  — prophet (149) 1) in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things 2) one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation.   2a) the O.T. prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death, of Jesus the Messiah.   2b) of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah   2c) of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent of the Messiah   2d) the Messiah   2e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men. This angel spoke of, was a MAN.  Yet most people think this angel was a spirit being.  God created angels and they will always be angels.  He created us man and we will always be man.  Just like Jesus, born of a woman, will always be man and He is God.  The God Man. You want to make Jesus a little god, that is pagan. Just as the trinity people what to cut God into three people, that also is pagan. DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: MARK 12:29 †     And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: To have Jesus is to have God, for He is God. JOHN 14:9 †     Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Marlin

Merlin1.

An angel is not a being,they are creatures,for they are created.

wakeup.

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