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Hi All,
This is a private discussion between myself and t8…….. for now. We'll let you know when we open it up for everybody.
t8,
The oldest known meaning of the Hebrew word “el” is “mighty one”.
Please tell me if you agree with this definition. If not, then please list your own definition.
Hi Mike. I will engage in this subject soon. And I am glad that it has a home now, so I can always find it rather than digging through other topics to find where we discussed this last.
But I am going to take a slow approach because I am dedicated right now to the 'Eternal hell torment' topic at the moment. I have a lot of writing to do on this subject and to reply to. I am also discussing this same topic from the main writing on the site where the discussion originated.
There are two guys I am debating with. One of the guys I know from my younger days. I even witnessed to him back then, but he cannot remember this. I am discussing with him on the site. His friend who I don't know is discussing this subject with me in the forum.
It would be cool if you could come on over and give me a help in hand or put in your 2 cents worth. If you feel led to of course. Here are the links if you are interested.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,15:07) t8, The oldest known meaning of the Hebrew word “el” is “mighty one”.
Please tell me if you agree with this definition. If not, then please list your own definition.
I haven't studied that to any depth, so I am not sure.But according to the TDNT it means mighty among other things.
- god, god-like one, mighty one
- mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
- angels
- god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
- God, the one true God, Jehovah
- mighty things in nature
- strength, power
Usage in the KJV:
- God 213,
- god 16,
- power 4,
- mighty 5,
- goodly 1,
- great 1,
- idols 1,
- Immanuel 06005 2,
- might 1,
- strong 1
Jesus is called 'mighty el' so if we take 'el' to mean 'mighty', then he is the mighty mighty el.
Quote (t8 @ June 15 2013,17:55) But according to the TDNT it means mighty among other things. - god, god-like one, mighty one
- mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
- angels
- god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
- God, the one true God, Jehovah
- mighty things in nature
- strength, power
Do you see anything on that list that is NOT “mighty”? If not, then we can assume that “mighty”, or “mighty one” is an accurate definition of “el”.Agreed?
t8,
The main point I'm trying to get across is the MAJOR DIFFERENCE between the way WE TODAY understand the word “god”, and what that word REALLY meant in scripture.
WE TODAY understand the word “god” to mean: The ONE and ONLY Almighty Creator of All Things. And if that was TRULY what the word “god” meant in Biblical times, then it would be equally true that there exists only ONE “god”.
BUT……………. the BIBLICAL use of the word “god” did NOT mean The ONE and ONLY Almighty Creator of All Things. Instead, it was a fairly generic term used to refer to any of MANY “mighty ones”.
Once we allow ourselves to understand this scriptural truth, we can begin to understand the scriptures the way they were written – WITHOUT adding in our own phrases like “so-called god” and “false god”. Neither of these phrases actually exist in ANY scripture in the ENTIRE Bible.
Are you with me so far?
Quote (terraricca @ June 16 2013,12:25) I agree 
Hi Pierre,Thanks for the support, but this thread is a debate (actually a discussion) between t8 and myself for now.
Cool. Next step:
Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.Who are these gods?
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…….The gods, to whom Satan referred, are the “one of us” Jehovah mentioned 17 verses later. They are Jehovah's divine counsel of spirit sons, sometimes called “gods”, and other times “angels” in scripture.
So the only question is: Are these beloved spirit sons of God “false gods”? Are they only “so-called gods”? Are they only “qualitatively gods”?
There is NO scriptural reason to believe any of the above. They are simply called “gods” in scripture, and we should BELIEVE scripture.
We already know “el” means “mighty one”. And there is no reason to think that the extremely powerful and mighty spirit sons of God are not legitimately “mighty ones”, right? Therefore, there is no reason to think these spirit sons of Jehovah are not legitimately gods.
Are you still with me?
From the “ISM” thread………………
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2013,18:35) The claim that there LITERALLY exists only ONE “el” was never taught in scripture, and was ushered in by Trinitarians who KNOW Jesus is called a god in at least 4 scriptures. Their thinking was: If we convince people that there is LITERALLY only one “true” god, and all others are “false gods”, then we can equally convince people that Jesus must BE that ONE true god – since nobody is ever going to call their Lord a “false god”.
Hi All,Do you remember when I wrote those words above on this thread?
Now look at these words that my Trinitarian friend Daniel wrote to me just today in our debate thread:
my faith is simple: there is only one true God and Jesus is either a true god or a false God.
See how the Trinitarians did that? They convinced people that the scriptures LITERALLY only teach of ONE real (or “true”) god, and that all others gods are “so-called gods” or “false gods”.
And they did it for the very reason Daniel just cited above. His words say, in effect, Since I believe the lie that there is LITERALLY only ONE real god, and Jesus IS definitely called a god, it means Jesus has to be either that ONE real god, or a “false god”. Therefore, I choose to believe Jesus IS that ONE real god – because I couldn't stomach calling my Lord and Savior a “false god”.
The Trinitarians' plan has worked wonderfully for them, don't you think?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2013,12:46) From the “ISM” thread……………… Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2013,18:35) The claim that there LITERALLY exists only ONE “el” was never taught in scripture, and was ushered in by Trinitarians who KNOW Jesus is called a god in at least 4 scriptures. Their thinking was: If we convince people that there is LITERALLY only one “true” god, and all others are “false gods”, then we can equally convince people that Jesus must BE that ONE true god – since nobody is ever going to call their Lord a “false god”.
Hi All,Do you remember when I wrote those words above on this thread?
Now look at these words that my Trinitarian friend Daniel wrote to me just today in our debate thread:
my faith is simple: there is only one true God and Jesus is either a true god or a false God.
See how the Trinitarians did that? They convinced people that the scriptures LITERALLY only teach of ONE real (or “true”) god, and that all others gods are “so-called gods” or “false gods”.
And they did it for the very reason Daniel just cited above. His words say, in effect, Since I believe the lie that there is LITERALLY only ONE real god, and Jesus IS definitely called a god, it means Jesus has to be either that ONE real god, or a “false god”. Therefore, I choose to believe Jesus IS that ONE real god – because I couldn't stomach calling my Lord and Savior a “false god”.
The Trinitarians' plan has worked wonderfully for them, don't you think?
Hi Mike,
What i believe is solely because of scripture.quote from our thread.
But scripture teaches CLEARLY there is NONE like YAHWEH
Jer 10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
Jer 10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.
Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.All other Gods, “THE” Gods are false Gods they will perish
end quote
So if you think Gabriel and Michael are gods, scripture teaches that ALL gods [ that would include Gabriel and Michael if you believe they are gods] will perish because they didn't make/create the heavens and earth. Unless you think Gabriel and Michael created the heavens with the Father and his breath/word?
Will continue in our debate thread.
Mike is it ok if you make comments about what I believe in our thread because I dont check many other threads and I want to be able to clarify your understandings of what you think I believe.Mike I believe scripture teaches explicitly that there is only one “true” god, and all others are false gods.
Life in the Word/Son and in his name.
DanielGenesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.Who are these gods?
Is this saying, they shall be as God, or shall be as gods?
If the latter, then yes that would likely be the sons of God IMO. But it could mean God.
Add Gen 3:5 to Gen 3:22, which I also quoted in my post.
They have become like one of US, knowing good from evil……...
That seems to make it pretty clear that “gods” is the correct translation of 3:5, rather than “God”.
If you agree to this, and therefore agree that the spirit sons of God are in view in 3:5, then what is it that tells us these spirit sons of God, like Michael and Gabriel, are either “false gods”, “so-called gods”, or “qualitatively God”?
Do we really have any SCRIPTURAL reason to explain this teaching away? Or is it only for PERSONAL reasons that we add “so-called” and “false” into scriptures that really say no such thing?
t8, if Jehovah is called “the god of gods”, doesn't that title, in and of itself, INSIST that there must be other gods that Jehovah is the god OF?
Could be. I have never thought about it too much, but assumed it was God talking to the Word that he made the Universe through.
I don't have a definite view on that one, but thanks for opening up that possibility to me.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2013,18:10) t8, if Jehovah is called “the god of gods”, doesn't that title, in and of itself, INSIST that there must be other gods that Jehovah is the god OF?
Yes, but if we consider that the Pharisees were gods because they held the seat of Moses, then that is one thing, but to call Nicodemus a god is quite another. If Pharisees were gods, then how come we never see a particular Pharisee called a god. e.g., a god tempted Jesus by saying….My view is not that I disagree that there are gods, but that we go around calling anyone who is considered 'theos' as a god. I just don't see that possibility in scripture because Greek uses The God to point out any particular God. Such as we see with Satan who is the God of this age.
Mike, I noticed that 4Thomas piped in here. This is easy to do due to the lack of t8 and Mike in the topic name or description.
If you want to change the description to say the debate is between you and me, then you can do that using the 'Edit this Topic' link at the bottom of the page.
Up to you.
Quote (t8 @ June 30 2013,15:31) Could be. I have never thought about it too much, but assumed it was God talking to the Word that he made the Universe through.
Well, if Satan said they would become like the gods, and Jehovah said they have become like one of US, and you think the “US” is Jehovah and His Word…………….. wouldn't that mean that both Jehovah and His Word are gods?
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