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Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:01) Mike, About death, the soul is not killed by man…
Matt 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do you see how the body is said to be killed but not the soul. Is that not clear that the soul is not dead along with the body?
Ok, I'm caught up.
Kathi
Yes. The same that can be said about the death of Jesus can be said about anyone who has ever died. However WE all die is the same way HE died. So why do you try to make it different? Scripture says it's the same.mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:22) Mike, Quote I personally believe that Jesus is saying the KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF that he is truly the Son of the Living God is the foundation of the church. Think about that, Kathi. Believing that Jesus is the Son OF God, not GOD THE SON, is the foundation his church is built on.
So now you believe that the foundation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God when just a post ago you said it was the scriptures themselves that were the foundation of the church, here:
Quote Find a rock foundation Kathi. There is only one – the actual scriptures themselves. So which one is it Mike, scriptures that bear witness to Christ or Christ, the Son of God and the true meaning of that?
Kathi
Kathiha ,ha, ha, where can you find that Christ is the foundation of his church ?
IN SCRIPTURES so you need them both.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,23:13) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,21:53)
Matter is a creation, new stuff, not part of God, eternal stuff.
And where did it originally come from?Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,21:53)
So you say that the Son was created and then begotten, or created/begotten as the same thing?
I say that my son was created by the method of begetting. Angels were not created by this particular method, while Jesus was.
Mike,
The new matter was new and didn't evolve or something like that. It was created by God not begotten by God.Regarding 'begetting,' I think you mean to say that your son was created by the method of reproduction. Begotten means born, not conceived. Begotten is not a method, it simply means 'born.' See this verse in Job:
Job 3:3 “Let the day perish on which I was to be born, And the night which said, 'A boy is conceived.'
born=yalad
conceived=harahTwo different words.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,23:30) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:01) Mike, About death, the soul is not killed by man…
Matt 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do you see how the body is said to be killed but not the soul. Is that not clear that the soul is not dead along with the body?
Ok, I'm caught up.
Kathi
Yes. The same that can be said about the death of Jesus can be said about anyone who has ever died. However WE all die is the same way HE died. So why do you try to make it different? Scripture says it's the same.mike
Mike,
I don't make it different. The men killed the body only, not the soul. Just like the verse said.Kathi
Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,23:31) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:22) Mike, Quote I personally believe that Jesus is saying the KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF that he is truly the Son of the Living God is the foundation of the church. Think about that, Kathi. Believing that Jesus is the Son OF God, not GOD THE SON, is the foundation his church is built on.
So now you believe that the foundation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God when just a post ago you said it was the scriptures themselves that were the foundation of the church, here:
Quote Find a rock foundation Kathi. There is only one – the actual scriptures themselves. So which one is it Mike, scriptures that bear witness to Christ or Christ, the Son of God and the true meaning of that?
Kathi
Kathiha ,ha, ha, where can you find that Christ is the foundation of his church ?
IN SCRIPTURES so you need them both.
Pierre
Actually Pierre,
Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart. Jesus didn't say that scriptures revealed that. You don't need both for salvation just Jesus. Scriptures are only a witness, a tool for training and correction in righteousness. They are important but God reveals Himself through creation too. People without scriptures are without excuse.Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:38) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,23:31) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:22) Mike, Quote I personally believe that Jesus is saying the KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF that he is truly the Son of the Living God is the foundation of the church. Think about that, Kathi. Believing that Jesus is the Son OF God, not GOD THE SON, is the foundation his church is built on.
So now you believe that the foundation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God when just a post ago you said it was the scriptures themselves that were the foundation of the church, here:
Quote Find a rock foundation Kathi. There is only one – the actual scriptures themselves. So which one is it Mike, scriptures that bear witness to Christ or Christ, the Son of God and the true meaning of that?
Kathi
Kathiha ,ha, ha, where can you find that Christ is the foundation of his church ?
IN SCRIPTURES so you need them both.
Pierre
Actually Pierre,
Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart. Jesus didn't say that scriptures revealed that. You don't need both for salvation just Jesus. Scriptures are only a witness, a tool for training and correction in righteousness. They are important but God reveals Himself through creation too. People without scriptures are without excuse.
KathiQuote Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart no ,you wrong again, Peter was a Jew and was well in the knowledge of the word of God .
in our case (gentiles)we are not Jews and so not acquainted with the scriptures ,so we have first to study and absorb knowledge of our creator ,and so come to the understanding of the corner stone of the church of Christ.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,23:28) I don't see the discrepancy. Don't the scriptures teach that Jesus is the Son OF God? And isn't the knowledge and belief that Jesus is the Son OF God the foundation of the Church of Christ? They seem to go hand in hand if you ask me.
Goodnight hillbilly.
mike
Mike,
Many have scriptures, the Jews for example, and don't believe that the Messiah is the Son of God. The Pharisees knew the scriptures but the truth of Jesus being the Son of God was not known to them. God needs to reveal this to your heart. Men are saved by faith and not by sight.BTW, you call me hillbilly again, I will take away your bandanna
Kathi
Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,23:45) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:38) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,23:31) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:22) Mike, Quote I personally believe that Jesus is saying the KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF that he is truly the Son of the Living God is the foundation of the church. Think about that, Kathi. Believing that Jesus is the Son OF God, not GOD THE SON, is the foundation his church is built on.
So now you believe that the foundation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God when just a post ago you said it was the scriptures themselves that were the foundation of the church, here:
Quote Find a rock foundation Kathi. There is only one – the actual scriptures themselves. So which one is it Mike, scriptures that bear witness to Christ or Christ, the Son of God and the true meaning of that?
Kathi
Kathiha ,ha, ha, where can you find that Christ is the foundation of his church ?
IN SCRIPTURES so you need them both.
Pierre
Actually Pierre,
Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart. Jesus didn't say that scriptures revealed that. You don't need both for salvation just Jesus. Scriptures are only a witness, a tool for training and correction in righteousness. They are important but God reveals Himself through creation too. People without scriptures are without excuse.
KathiQuote Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart no ,you wrong again, Peter was a Jew and was well in the knowledge of the word of God .
in our case (gentiles)we are not Jews and so not acquainted with the scriptures ,so we have first to study and absorb knowledge of our creator ,and so come to the understanding of the corner stone of the church of Christ.
Pierre
Pierre,
But what did Jesus say to Peter? He didn't say “Good for you Peter cause you sure do know your scriptures” or did He say:15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
This may be the problem that you are having.
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
The scriptures are a witness of Him, they are not equal to knowing Him by the revelation of God to your heart.
Scriptures are important but not equal to the revelation that God brings to your heart which opens up the truth of scriptures.
The Jews have scriptures and are blind, btw.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,19:06) The Jews have scriptures and are blind, btw.
The Jews are NOT all blind, that is only in PART.
The first converts WERE JEWS.
Part of the reason that they are blind is because they are taught MONOTHEISM.
So they see the Gentiles all worshipping ANOTHER God.
And it goes against what they believe.Jesus was the MESSIAH.
Maybe you should look at WHAT the Jews expected the Messiah to be.
And what the Gentiles turned Him into.Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,23:06) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,23:45) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:38) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,23:31) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:22) Mike, Quote I personally believe that Jesus is saying the KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF that he is truly the Son of the Living God is the foundation of the church. Think about that, Kathi. Believing that Jesus is the Son OF God, not GOD THE SON, is the foundation his church is built on.
So now you believe that the foundation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God when just a post ago you said it was the scriptures themselves that were the foundation of the church, here:
Quote Find a rock foundation Kathi. There is only one – the actual scriptures themselves. So which one is it Mike, scriptures that bear witness to Christ or Christ, the Son of God and the true meaning of that?
Kathi
Kathiha ,ha, ha, where can you find that Christ is the foundation of his church ?
IN SCRIPTURES so you need them both.
Pierre
Actually Pierre,
Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart. Jesus didn't say that scriptures revealed that. You don't need both for salvation just Jesus. Scriptures are only a witness, a tool for training and correction in righteousness. They are important but God reveals Himself through creation too. People without scriptures are without excuse.
KathiQuote Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart no ,you wrong again, Peter was a Jew and was well in the knowledge of the word of God .
in our case (gentiles)we are not Jews and so not acquainted with the scriptures ,so we have first to study and absorb knowledge of our creator ,and so come to the understanding of the corner stone of the church of Christ.
Pierre
Pierre,
But what did Jesus say to Peter? He didn't say “Good for you Peter cause you sure do know your scriptures” or did He say:15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
This may be the problem that you are having.
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
The scriptures are a witness of Him, they are not equal to knowing Him by the revelation of God to your heart.
Scriptures are important but not equal to the revelation that God brings to your heart which opens up the truth of scriptures.
The Jews have scriptures and are blind, btw.
Kathi
KathiNO,NO, the Jews did not have to be preached to know there God ,
they were preach to repent because they have fall away from their God,
and Christ came to call the righteous ones out of that nation.the ones who love there God,
Pierre
Quote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,00:42) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,19:06) The Jews have scriptures and are blind, btw.
The Jews are NOT all blind, that is only in PART.
The first converts WERE JEWS.
Part of the reason that they are blind is because they are taught MONOTHEISM.
So they see the Gentiles all worshipping ANOTHER God.
And it goes against what they believe.Jesus was the MESSIAH.
Maybe you should look at WHAT the Jews expected the Messiah to be.
And what the Gentiles turned Him into.Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Karmarie,
I was speaking in the general sense. The Jews are blind in the general sense. Some have accepted Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God, true. Why did they accept Him Karmarie? They were also taught monotheism and had the Holy Scriptures with all the prophecies. Maybe truth was revealed from God that He is both Father and Son, two persons as one deity.Do you deny the deity of Christ like the unbelieving Jews also?
Is YOUR image of 'one God' the same as God's image of 'one God'. For believers there is one God the Father AND one Lord, Jesus Christ. God and Lord are both deity terms here. Not 'deity God' and 'non deity Lord'. Let God give you understanding, not what the Jews think. Jesus said that no one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father and to whom He wishes to reveal Him. The Jews did not know the Father and Son. Their image of 'one God' was incorrect. They worship their own ideas and not the true deity of Father and Son. When you worship the Father IN TRUTH, you will also see the Son and know what Son of God truly means.
Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,02:40) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,23:06) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,23:45) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:38) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,23:31) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,22:22) Mike, Quote I personally believe that Jesus is saying the KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF that he is truly the Son of the Living God is the foundation of the church. Think about that, Kathi. Believing that Jesus is the Son OF God, not GOD THE SON, is the foundation his church is built on.
So now you believe that the foundation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God when just a post ago you said it was the scriptures themselves that were the foundation of the church, here:
Quote Find a rock foundation Kathi. There is only one – the actual scriptures themselves. So which one is it Mike, scriptures that bear witness to Christ or Christ, the Son of God and the true meaning of that?
Kathi
Kathiha ,ha, ha, where can you find that Christ is the foundation of his church ?
IN SCRIPTURES so you need them both.
Pierre
Actually Pierre,
Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart. Jesus didn't say that scriptures revealed that. You don't need both for salvation just Jesus. Scriptures are only a witness, a tool for training and correction in righteousness. They are important but God reveals Himself through creation too. People without scriptures are without excuse.
KathiQuote Peter did not get that truth from scriptures but God revealed that to his heart no ,you wrong again, Peter was a Jew and was well in the knowledge of the word of God .
in our case (gentiles)we are not Jews and so not acquainted with the scriptures ,so we have first to study and absorb knowledge of our creator ,and so come to the understanding of the corner stone of the church of Christ.
Pierre
Pierre,
But what did Jesus say to Peter? He didn't say “Good for you Peter cause you sure do know your scriptures” or did He say:15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
This may be the problem that you are having.
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
The scriptures are a witness of Him, they are not equal to knowing Him by the revelation of God to your heart.
Scriptures are important but not equal to the revelation that God brings to your heart which opens up the truth of scriptures.
The Jews have scriptures and are blind, btw.
Kathi
KathiNO,NO, the Jews did not have to be preached to know there God ,
they were preach to repent because they have fall away from their God,
and Christ came to call the righteous ones out of that nation.the ones who love there God,
Pierre
Pierre,
That is not what we were discussing. We weren't talking about 'preaching,' we were discussing whether the scriptures were the foundation of the church or was it Christ, the Son of the Living God. You said both and I said that it was Christ, the Son of the Living God. The scriptures are only a witness to the foundation and not the foundation itself. The new Gentile converts did not have scripture but they had Christ, the Son of the Living God. They had both the Son of the Living God and the Living God and that is the truth that the church is founded on. Scriptures are important in that they testify to that truth. Although many can read and miss the truth unless God births faith within them and the Holy Spirit enlightens them.The Jews had scriptures and most of them completely missed their Messiah and in fact shouted 'crucify Him.' God needs to birth faith within you in order for you to have faith in Jesus as the Messiah AND Lord as in deity Lord.
Do you deny the deity of Christ like the unbelieving Jews too?
Kathi
the scriptures are the foundation to Christ and Christ is the foundation of our salvation
Pierre
Pierre,
Show me a scripture that says the scriptures are the foundation to Christ. Don't you mean to say that the scriptures tell us about Christ.25And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26“Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,14:10) Pierre,
Show me a scripture that says the scriptures are the foundation to Christ. Don't you mean to say that the scriptures tell us about Christ.25And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26“Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Kathi
Kathiif there was no scriptures what is Gods word of what he will do ,then there would be nothing at all does it ?
so the word of God is the foundation that leads us to christ and then the word of Christ from god brings the foundation for our salvation.
Quote Pierre,
Do you deny the deity of Christ?yes i do but not the way you are twisting that view
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,08:46) Quote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,00:42) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,19:06) The Jews have scriptures and are blind, btw.
The Jews are NOT all blind, that is only in PART.
The first converts WERE JEWS.
Part of the reason that they are blind is because they are taught MONOTHEISM.
So they see the Gentiles all worshipping ANOTHER God.
And it goes against what they believe.Jesus was the MESSIAH.
Maybe you should look at WHAT the Jews expected the Messiah to be.
And what the Gentiles turned Him into.Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Karmarie,
I was speaking in the general sense. The Jews are blind in the general sense. Some have accepted Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God, true. Why did they accept Him Karmarie? They were also taught monotheism and had the Holy Scriptures with all the prophecies. Maybe truth was revealed from God that He is both Father and Son, two persons as one deity.Do you deny the deity of Christ like the unbelieving Jews also?
Is YOUR image of 'one God' the same as God's image of 'one God'. For believers there is one God the Father AND one Lord, Jesus Christ. God and Lord are both deity terms here. Not 'deity God' and 'non deity Lord'. Let God give you understanding, not what the Jews think. Jesus said that no one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father and to whom He wishes to reveal Him. The Jews did not know the Father and Son. Their image of 'one God' was incorrect. They worship their own ideas and not the true deity of Father and Son. When you worship the Father IN TRUTH, you will also see the Son and know what Son of God truly means.
Kathi,The Jews were taught Monotheism, that God YHVH is the only true God, and that there never will be another.
The Jews today would look at some things, such as what goes on here (two equal Gods) and think that is just typical of Gentile (polythiestic) belief. So it's helping them, is it?
If people only stuck to the truth of scripture, then maybe it would be easier for them. Joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
The Early Church remained Monotheistic, as is evident in the New Testement.
If the Jews are to come to God through Christ, then the truth needs to be told, not error.
Error is saying there are two equal Gods and to worship them both.
Error is saying that God punishes people forever in hellfire.
Thats not the God that the Jews know. Thats Gentile belief.(Monotheism is related to henotheism (worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities) and monolatrism (the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity).
Pierre,
So you deny the deity of Christ. Explain what is meant in your view of the word 'deity.'Thanks,
Kathi
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