- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,14:52) Also that the Son was called Jehovah in the OT and appeared to man as Jehovah in the OT. The Father and Son are both called Jehovah.
Kathi,The scriptures don't actually say or even imply what you claim. What about my point that the Hebrews referred to vice regents OF Jehovah as “Jehovah”?
One of us is making a claim that scripture backs up while the other one of us is making claim that no scripture backs up.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 24 2011,14:52) Pierre,
I don't agree with Gill on every point but on the Son being begotten and not created, and also eternal within the Father, then begotten before the ages, I do agree with that. Also that the Son was called Jehovah in the OT and appeared to man as Jehovah in the OT. The Father and Son are both called Jehovah. I don't agree that anyone else is called Jehovah. If the one referred to in the OT as an angel and is named Jehovah, I agree with Gill that He is the Son of God…not the Father and not a created angel. The Father Jehovah has not been seen by man.Kathi
Kathishow scriptures to back your statement ,please
Pierre
Pierre,
Genesis 18 talks about one of the visitors with Abraham was Jehovah, read it.
Hosea 4 which I have been showing you names the one who wrestled with the Jacob was Jehovah, the God of hosts. So if He is called the God of hosts, He is not one of the hosts.
Do you see in each of these chapters where Jehovah is the name of one of those that are present in the situation? The Bible translates Jehovah as Lord so you might have to look at the Hebrew.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 24 2011,18:24) Pierre, Genesis 18 talks about one of the visitors with Abraham was Jehovah, read it.
Hosea 4 which I have been showing you names the one who wrestled with the Jacob was Jehovah, the God of hosts. So if He is called the God of hosts, He is not one of the hosts.
Do you see in each of these chapters where Jehovah is the name of one of those that are present in the situation? The Bible translates Jehovah as Lord so you might have to look at the Hebrew.
Kathi
Kathisorry,but those scriptures do not reflect your dreams,
this is pure wishful thinking.
Pierre
Hi Mike,
I know you have made a lot of posts to me which I haven't specifically addressed. They have come and gone, so hit me up with just one for now if you would like.Kathi
NO! You go back to page one and answer every one you've missed!!!!!
I'm tired Kathi. Maybe you could just acknowledge that the Hebrews often referred to vice regents OF Jehovah as “Jehovah” or “God”. And that Jesus only has a one in a “myriads upon myriads” chance of being that vice regent of God in any particular scripture.
I pointed out that Manoah knew it was an angel OF God, and not God Himself that he saw, still he feared for his life saying, “We have seen God and now must die”.
Do you get this? There is no scriptural reason to think there exists a person named “Jehovah the Son”. Only imagination will result in that conclusion.
mike
Mike, In Gen 18 and in the story of Jacob wrestling with God, this is not an incident of a vice regent. Scripture clearly identifies the one as Jehovah as is made clear in Hosea 4. You must use conjecture to say otherwise.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,21:30) Mike, In Gen 18 and in the story of Jacob wrestling with God, this is not an incident of a vice regent. Scripture clearly identifies the one as Jehovah as is made clear in Hosea 4. You must use conjecture to say otherwise. Kathi
Kathiit says that he wrestled with a man (angel of God )not God transformed in human.
and the angel man could get out of his grip but he would have to hurt him ,what at the end he did anyway.
Pierre
Well Pierre,
The angel's name is Jehovah, God of hosts and if God of hosts, He is not a created angel because the 'hosts' were created by the word of God.Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:33) Well Pierre,
The angel's name is Jehovah, God of hosts and if God of hosts, He is not a created angel because the 'hosts' were created by the word of God.Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Kathithat s all true in ps 33 , but that is not what it say in Gen;18 and Hos;12
so this is only your mind that cleverly put things together in an odd way and call it good to smooth the edges ,but it is a lie
it just do not fit
Pierre
Pierre,
You are in denial. In Gen 18, Abraham is talking to one called Jehovah. In Hosea 4, it tells us that Jacob wrestled with one called Jehovah, God of hosts. When one changes scripture to fit their imaginations, they make a god out of their imaginations. Just read the scripture and let it stand as it is.The word translated as LORD that I have bolded below is the Hebrew word Jehovah.
Gen 18:22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD. 23Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24“Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25“Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28“Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
Hos 12:2-5
2The LORD also has a dispute with Judah,
And will punish Jacob according to his ways;
He will repay him according to his deeds.3In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
And in his maturity he contended with God.4Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed;
He wept and sought His favor.
He found Him at Bethel
And there He spoke with us,5Even the LORD, the God of hosts,
The LORD is His name.
NASBMoses wrote about the Son of God, He existed before Abraham was even born…even from eternity, He is deity with the Father, He is with the Father and the Holy Spirit in creating the world.
Kathi
pierre your in denial, take what is said.
LU: r u stating that the LORD was in angel?note: i dot have direct internst access so my post will b short and simple bc im posting from my phone which is a pain.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,00:33) Pierre,
You are in denial. In Gen 18, Abraham is talking to one called Jehovah. In Hosea 4, it tells us that Jacob wrestled with one called Jehovah, God of hosts. When one changes scripture to fit their imaginations, they make a god out of their imaginations. Just read the scripture and let it stand as it is.The word translated as LORD that I have bolded below is the Hebrew word Jehovah.
Gen 18:22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD. 23Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24“Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25“Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28“Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
Hos 12:2-5
2The LORD also has a dispute with Judah,
And will punish Jacob according to his ways;
He will repay him according to his deeds.3In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
And in his maturity he contended with God.4Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed;
He wept and sought His favor.
He found Him at Bethel
And there He spoke with us,5Even the LORD, the God of hosts,
The LORD is His name.
NASBMoses wrote about the Son of God, He existed before Abraham was even born…even from eternity, He is deity with the Father, He is with the Father and the Holy Spirit in creating the world.
Kathi
kathiEx 16:33 So Moses said to Aaron, “Take a jar and put an omer of manna in it. Then place it before the LORD to be kept for the generations to come.”
Ex 29:26 After you take the breast of the ram for Aaron’s ordination, wave it before the LORD as a wave offering, and it will be your share.
Nu 17:7 Moses placed the staffs before the LORD in the Tent of the Testimony.
1Sa 1:22 Hannah did not go. She said to her husband, “After the boy is weaned, I will take him and present him before the LORD, and he will live there always.”
1Ch 17:16 Then King David went in and sat before the LORD, and he said:
“Who am I, O LORD God, and what is my family, that you have brought me this far?Job 2:1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.
Ps 98:9 let them sing before the LORD,
for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples with equity.A prayer of an afflicted man. When he is faint and pours out his lament before the LORD.
1Th 5:27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.
witch one of those verses do you not understand?
Pierre
kathi
it is true that you can read better than I can but you do not understand as I do ,
you never answer my questions because you do not understand scriptures or you just refuse to answer them?
Pierre
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 25 2011,11:14) pierre your in denial, take what is said.
LU: r u stating that the LORD was in angel?note: i dot have direct internst access so my post will b short and simple bc im posting from my phone which is a pain.
Dennison,
There is Jehovah, the unseen God the Father…and His image, Jehovah, the only begotten God from the Father, who was seen in the appearance of a man and taken for being an angel, but He is not a created angel. He is the one who created the angels.I am not stating that Jehovah, the Son, was 'in' an angel. At times when He appeared, He was taken for an angel and/or a man but it was just by appearance and not essentially so. Essentially He is deity, Jehovah, God of hosts and the image of His Father who is the the unseen Jehovah. The Father and Son are one in deity, but different persons.
Kathi
Pierre,
Quote witch one of those verses do you not understand? I understand them. Jehovah is both Father and Son…two persons as one deity with their Spirit. Sometimes in the context it is clear that one is seen by man and then that one would be the Son, sometimes it is both collectively, sometimes Jehovah as the Father is referred to. Either way, both are referred to as Jehovah. The two are one deity collectively.
I know that you don't understand Pierre. That's ok. We both are learning.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,12:48) Pierre, Quote witch one of those verses do you not understand? I understand them. Jehovah is both Father and Son…two persons as one deity with their Spirit. Sometimes in the context it is clear that one is seen by man and then that one would be the Son, sometimes it is both collectively, sometimes Jehovah as the Father is referred to. Either way, both are referred to as Jehovah. The two are one deity collectively.
I know that you don't understand Pierre. That's ok. We both are learning.
Kathi
Kathihow can I understand what is not of God ? i am a man of God.
I do not seek in scriptures what they do not say ,but it seams you do.
Pierre
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
