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Quote (karmarie @ April 16 2011,03:53) Jay, through all my years of research and where i'm at now (all these People here are where I was once on my own…with all the Church Fathers, all the books etc) well I came to a place of peace and understanding based more on spiritual than all the other stuff. Anyway, my understanding is that the word was God, as God said (Isaiah 55:11) 'so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.' So I understand, as i said, John i:1 with this. I don't believe at all in this two or Three God theory. I believe there is only One God, as it says, I believe it. However, as I see Gods word as being his word simple as that, I can see also how God spoke his word in the past through various means example the Angel of the Lord. And so, in these last day's, he spoke it through a Son. So, Old Testement says there are Sons of God being Angels (example in Job). So, God achieving this through a Son, an Angel Spirit being born as a Man,….no longer an Angel but risen to higher, it can fit my belief fine. Because I believe Jesus was a Man. I get it now. You could be just right. I'm seeing it… Is this what you are saying?
KarmarieQuote (all these People here are where I was once on my own…with all the Church Fathers, all the books etc) you like to make yourself stick out above everyone else don`t you?
you do not really know anyone of us except by the quotes we make ,right?
you have shown your weakness to us and many of us have already solved those problems long ago ,we also have left religion many years ago maybe before you ever taught about for yourself,
of cause some are young and green so to speak but many are over 70 and need respect.
this is IMO my feelings about your comment.
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ April 15 2011,02:25) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:25) I don't recall if this verse was mentioned but I think that it is pretty clear that the Son of God is not considered an angel.
Tell you what, if I show you one verse that says otherwise, then what would you do about that?
t8,
There is only one way to find out
Quote (Istari @ April 15 2011,03:38) Kathi,
When Jesus emptied himself and came to earth as man that means he was no longer an Angel.When he was a man – he was not an angel.
And the saying is pertaining to when he was a man on earth.
Please please please – can everyone get their head out the sand and get things in perspective – everything will become easier:
Angels … Are Spirit creations of God sent to do the work of God whether to deliver messages or do deeds or run errands…
Please please please – stop thinking of Angels as fluffy little child creatures with wings or women in long flowing robes with clasped hands prayer-style and bent necks and halos…. These are distorted visions painted by naive interpretations.Some Angels appear in the SHAPE of human beings with pure White apparel that signifies their holy status. These Angels are simple messengers who deliver a message and then return back to the spirit realm.
Some Angels appear as more normal human beings and stay for longer term to do deeds or need to be more persuasive… They may even show their power by acts or visual display of symbols of power (E.g. A Sword)
Other Angels can appear in non-human form such as fire or wind, visible or invisible.Angels have IMMENSE POWER but they only use as much as is required to carry out their tasks.
Angels of God do not misuse their powers BUT they can use their powers to achieve the commission they have been given – indeed they MUST, else they cannot return to Heaven where they would rather be!!To deny that Jesus was (Note: WAS) an Angel in heaven before he came as man is to deny his part in carrying out the errands, messenging, commissions etc given to him by his father – else what DID he do be worthy of being called SON OF GOD? (For the Son, while he is young, is no different to a servant!)
Many here appear to not be able to differentiate verses that pertain to Jesus in Heaven BEFORE he came as man, Jesus as Man In the FLESH, and RISEN CHRIST as Nevis now.
This leads to mixing up of references and errors of thinking about what is read, what is taught and what others are saying.
There is also the desire to try to valid or compound an idea by using out of sequence verses….
For instance, what is Jesus NOW?
Every Apostle says he is MAN… and …Spirit …!
The only mediator between God and Man: the MAN Jesus Christ!No ANGEL/Spirit has permanent personal body features… In fact, they are FEATURELESS apart from their appearance as man.
Jesus is different, he HAS permanent personal Human body features which he showed to his Disciples and will show again to those on Paradise Earth. This is indicated by the references in Revelation to the 'Lamb as if slaughtered' – his wounds are permanent as a constant reminder of his sacrifice in death.
In heaven, he is Spirit – and only so can anyone appear in heaven for even the Spiritual body of Christ cannot enter heaven.
How then does Jesus have a recognisable physical body on earth and yet is Spirit (Bodyless) in Heaven?To some, this is a mystery. To others, it is as nothing at all!
Spirits can CREATE physical bodies… And DE-Create them also…
Create a body and place themselves in it to animate it and are thence shackled to the 4-dimensional physical world – but with controlled Power!
Shed the body and return to invisible and unshackled Spirit world where night nor day, heat nor cold, hunger nor thirst, sleep, nor pain are of consequence, and time and distance are immaterial(!)
Istari,
If Jesus is and angel, so is His Father because like begets like.Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:06)
If Jesus is and angel, so is His Father because like begets like.
KathiSo true! Scriptures and nature itself clearly teach “every seed bearing seed bears after its own kind”. (Gen 1:11, 21)
No where in the scriptures do we have the Father calling angels sons and no where in scripture do we have an angel refering to the Father as Father.
This is a damnable heresy IMO straight from Watchtower that degrades the Son as to his divine nature.
No follower of Christ in the scripture calls Jesus their Angel or as far as I know it is never mentioned by any of the Forefathers. That would be interesting to look into.
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ April 16 2011,09:11) Quote (karmarie @ April 16 2011,03:53) Jay, through all my years of research and where i'm at now (all these People here are where I was once on my own…with all the Church Fathers, all the books etc) well I came to a place of peace and understanding based more on spiritual than all the other stuff. Anyway, my understanding is that the word was God, as God said (Isaiah 55:11) 'so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.' So I understand, as i said, John i:1 with this. I don't believe at all in this two or Three God theory. I believe there is only One God, as it says, I believe it. However, as I see Gods word as being his word simple as that, I can see also how God spoke his word in the past through various means example the Angel of the Lord. And so, in these last day's, he spoke it through a Son. So, Old Testement says there are Sons of God being Angels (example in Job). So, God achieving this through a Son, an Angel Spirit being born as a Man,….no longer an Angel but risen to higher, it can fit my belief fine. Because I believe Jesus was a Man. I get it now. You could be just right. I'm seeing it… Is this what you are saying?
KarmarieQuote (all these People here are where I was once on my own…with all the Church Fathers, all the books etc) you like to make yourself stick out above everyone else don`t you?
you do not really know anyone of us except by the quotes we make ,right?
you have shown your weakness to us and many of us have already solved those problems long ago ,we also have left religion many years ago maybe before you ever taught about for yourself,
of cause some are young and green so to speak but many are over 70 and need respect.
this is IMO my feelings about your comment.
Pierre
Terrarica, I'm young and stupid. So ?If I word some things wrong, such as I did, then maybe you should check first what I meant.
What I meant was, I have read all the Fathers, and as it says in the Bible, call no-one on earth your Father, for you have one Father in Heaven.
So I didn't mean everyone….that was an error I was multi tasking.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2011,11:49) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:06)
If Jesus is and angel, so is His Father because like begets like.
KathiSo true! Scriptures and nature itself clearly teach “every seed bearing seed bears after its own kind”. (Gen 1:11, 21)
No where in the scriptures do we have the Father calling angels sons and no where in scripture do we have an angel refering to the Father as Father.
This is a damnable heresy IMO straight from Watchtower that degrades the Son as to his divine nature.
No follower of Christ in the scripture calls Jesus their Angel or as far as I know it is never mentioned by any of the Forefathers. That would be interesting to look into.
WJ
Actually some of the 'forefathers' did. One example is….Justin Martyr, Quote himJustin Martyr comments to Trypho Chapter LXI—Wisdom is begotten of the Father, as fire from fire.”
I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning,[who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word means both the thinking power or reason which produces ideas and the expression of these ideas. When we utter a thought, the utterance of it does not diminish the power of thought in us, though in one sense the thought has gone away from us. [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2011,11:49) No where in the scriptures do we have the Father calling angels sons
Job 1:6 'Now it happened on the day when God's sons came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them. Yahweh said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, “From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”Quote (Istari @ April 16 2011,05:29) Hi Kar, you have it exactly right. I asked the question of what was Adam's in the beginning but dropped the baton – and how did Jesus picked up that baton and finished the race. What was that purpose?
Jesus accomished what Adam failed at – what was it Jesus accomplished but to prove that adherence as a Son in the flesh to the word of God successfully enables one to become a Son of God in Spirit as well.
Many here do not read that the Genealogy of Christ lists Adam as 'Son of God'.
It should then be asked, 'In what way was Jesus SON OF GOD differently from Adam?'
Their responses will be interesting….It seems some here are disputing just for the sake of dispute and their point if view changes with the wind and whom they are disputing with.
Perhaps the forum is just a pastime and they aren't really here to learn anything – but tonplay at aggravating others…
For instance, someone turned a perfectly understandable verse into mush by adding and swapping words and then claimed that their opponent did not understand scriptures – what was it now, oh yes: 'To which ONE of the Angels did God ever say…' (Which implies that God said it to ONE of the Angels'. But, of course, the word 'One' is not in the verse and the real verse structure does not allow for it… The real verse is stating in question form that God at no time said it to any of them – following on it them shows that it is only to the Son.
Why did this person decide to change s ruptures when that person knows full well that scriptures says 'Fdo not ADD TO [God's] word, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar' (Proverbs 30:56) and also Revelation 22:19 (do not TAKE AWAY from words of this book…)Kar, keep learning and believing as you have done but beware of overconfidence as Satan will be observing you and will not stray far from attempting to trip you up!
Thanks, Jay.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2011,08:49) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:06)
If Jesus is and angel, so is His Father because like begets like.
KathiSo true! Scriptures and nature itself clearly teach “every seed bearing seed bears after its own kind”. (Gen 1:11, 21)
No where in the scriptures do we have the Father calling angels sons and no where in scripture do we have an angel refering to the Father as Father.
This is a damnable heresy IMO straight from Watchtower that degrades the Son as to his divine nature.
No follower of Christ in the scripture calls Jesus their Angel or as far as I know it is never mentioned by any of the Forefathers. That would be interesting to look into.
WJ
Keith and Kathy! What about these Scriptures
Job 38:1 ¶ Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,Job 38:2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
The morning stars are considered Angels, and they shouted for joy, when God created the earth…There was only Jesus and thye Angels around at that time of creation….
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ April 14 2011,23:25) I don't recall if this verse was mentioned but I think that it is pretty clear that the Son of God is not considered an angel. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. If the Son was an angel then saying 'nor the Son' would be redundant.
Hi Kathi,Good point. I think Dennison was trying to say something like that too.
We know Jesus is an angel of God because he is a messenger of God, and that's all the word really means.
But your scripture, and Hebrews 1:4 seem to separate him from the group of beings called “angels”.
So now what do we do?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 16 2011,08:26) Quote (Lightenup @ April 14 2011,23:25) I don't recall if this verse was mentioned but I think that it is pretty clear that the Son of God is not considered an angel. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. If the Son was an angel then saying 'nor the Son' would be redundant.
Hi Kathi,Good point. I think Dennison was trying to say something like that too.
We know Jesus is an angel of God because he is a messenger of God, and that's all the word really means.
But your scripture, and Hebrews 1:4 seem to separate him from the group of beings called “angels”.
So now what do we do?
mike
I did make that point as well.
(should i make time to respond to all my posts today…hmmmm)Quote (Lightenup @ April 14 2011,23:35) He is a messenger of Himself afterall.
That's just silly. What message did God ever deliver for someone else?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2011,08:40) But don't forget that Jesus is now a spirit being and still an aggelos of his God. So while Jesus once was a human aggelos, or “messenger of God”, he is now a spirit aggelos, or “angel of God”. Hey Wm and SF,
Are you guys on board with this statement, or do you have a rebuttal?
mike
Rebuttalllll,
How is Jesus still a Messenger of God when he rules over everything?Istari said:
Quote Mike,
You are a 'Card', a real playing card, in fact, a Joker! You, Jack, WJ and SF… The four Jokers in this forum pack!
Yup, and your that extra card thats always tossed to aside because no one wastes thier time reading your speculations of how to play.Quote (karmarie @ April 15 2011,02:21) For comparison of the YLT and others, I go here
Hey Kar,Thanks for the link! I checked it out only briefly, but I might end up liking this site better than the NETNotes that Kathi turned me on to!
How do you women keep finding such great, informational sites?
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 15 2011,21:37) Istari said: Quote Mike,
You are a 'Card', a real playing card, in fact, a Joker! You, Jack, WJ and SF… The four Jokers in this forum pack!
Yup, and your that extra card thats always tossed to aside because no one wastes thier time reading your speculations of how to play.
Quote (Istari @ April 15 2011,03:11)
Mike,
Why do you stress the words of the Scriptures…
Revelations 1 says that God gave the revelation to Jesus – and Jesus gave it to HIS Angel…
That's right Istari. God GAVE this message TO his messenger/angel Jesus to give to his own messenger/angel to give to John to give to the congregations.Every single person involved in giving the message of God to another in that verse is an angel, including John.
Is this so hard to see?
Quote (Istari @ April 15 2011,03:11)
Oh, about the other John, John the baptist! Once again you stress yourself over a non-issue!
I already told you but you just can't leave off pettiness! John the baptist was born in Sin – Jesus was not… Therefore Jesus was THE ONLY SINLESS MAN on earth.
Oh, I see. So we're no longer going by the “ALL WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD ARE SONS OF GOD” requirement that you stipulated earlier? Now you've changed it to “being sinless”? Okay, show me the scripture.Quote (Istari @ April 15 2011,03:11)
Abraham was and is not in heaven and certainly not before before Jesus died and returned to heaven else how can he have said that no one has gone to heaven except hevwho has come down from heaven??)
That's a tricky one. Because Jesus also says Abraham saw his day, and that God is a God of the living, not the dead.This will make a good discussion…………..on a different thread. You should start one.
mike
Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2011,13:11) Karmarie Quote (all these People here are where I was once on my own…with all the Church Fathers, all the books etc) you like to make yourself stick out above everyone else don`t you?
you do not really know anyone of us except by the quotes we make ,right?
you have shown your weakness to us and many of us have already solved those problems long ago ,we also have left religion many years ago maybe before you ever taught about for yourself,
Hi Pierre,I agree with you. It may not have been her intent, but it did sound to me like she was placing herself far above those of us who are only now “where she once was”.
Nor do the scriptures actually agree with most of her posted understandings.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,15:04) Quote (t8 @ April 15 2011,02:25) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:25) I don't recall if this verse was mentioned but I think that it is pretty clear that the Son of God is not considered an angel.
Tell you what, if I show you one verse that says otherwise, then what would you do about that?
t8,
There is only one way to find out
Funny!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2011,15:49) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:06)
If Jesus is and angel, so is His Father because like begets like.
KathiSo true! Scriptures and nature itself clearly teach “every seed bearing seed bears after its own kind”. (Gen 1:11, 21)
No where in the scriptures do we have the Father calling angels sons and no where in scripture do we have an angel refering to the Father as Father.
This is a damnable heresy IMO straight from Watchtower that degrades the Son as to his divine nature.
No follower of Christ in the scripture calls Jesus their Angel or as far as I know it is never mentioned by any of the Forefathers. That would be interesting to look into.
WJ
Whoa there! Slow down big guy!“Aggelos” simply means “messenger”. So if Jesus EVER delivered a message from God, then Jesus is an angel of God.
This part you and Kathi can't possibly deny, no matter how much you want to.
The part about how Jesus was unique from the other spiritual messengers of God is another issue altogether.
But you can't use the “like begets like” argument until you establish that “messenger” is some kind of species or something.
mike
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