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Quote (Baker @ April 14 2011,08:18) To All! I had asked Georg, if He thought Jesus was an Angel. His rely was this, and I quote:” Is and was Jesus a Spirit Being? Yes, He was… Are the Angels Spirit Beings? Yes, they are. are they all called Son's of God? Yes they are. What we do have to remember that there are levels of greatness. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Then we have Archangels called Cherubs, like Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer who became Satan. Jesus is above them.,.,..I also believe that Jesus volunteered to die for us….No prove of that either, just IMO Now Jesus has immortality, which I don;t think Angels have. I can't prove that the Angels do, but there is no Scriptures, except that Lucifer or Satan and His Angels will go to the Lake of Fire, and will burn up, along with all wicked men…..
Peace and Love Irene
I know how difficult it is to believe that Jesus is an Angel, but these are the facts…..
Hi Irene,Tell Georg thanks for his thoughts. I agree with him for the most part, but angels are immortal.
Luke 20
35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.Now I don't consider “immortal” to mean one can't be destroyed. I consider it to mean that one can't die of “natural causes” such as old age and such.
mike
Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,08:59) Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2011,03:47) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,00:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2011,09:15) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 13 2011,00:23) Hmm as a JW this is a really strong argument for Jesus being the highest angel possible or Michael the Arch. Thanks Mike, The rebuttals are getting punched in the face with your fist of grammar. 
Hi between,I am not a JW, although I agree with them on almost every scriptural point there is. The Michael thing is one of the few exceptions. I believe that Michael was created through Jesus, as were the other heavenly messengers of God.
But thanks for the “atta-boy”.
mike
I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael?
BtChrist is not the angel Michael
Pierre
If the hebrew and greek word for angel mean messenger and Jesus is a messenger of God, then Jesus is an angel period. If he isn't the chief messenger then the Islamists were right and i'm not accepting that.
Since the prophets spoke the word of God because they were carried allong by the Holy Spirit it would seem clear that the Spirit of God is the foremost messenger of God.I have no idea what Islam teaches though.
Quote (kerwin @ April 15 2011,23:10) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,08:59) Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2011,03:47) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,00:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2011,09:15) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 13 2011,00:23) Hmm as a JW this is a really strong argument for Jesus being the highest angel possible or Michael the Arch. Thanks Mike, The rebuttals are getting punched in the face with your fist of grammar.
Hi between,I am not a JW, although I agree with them on almost every scriptural point there is. The Michael thing is one of the few exceptions. I believe that Michael was created through Jesus, as were the other heavenly messengers of God.
But thanks for the “atta-boy”.
mike
I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael?
BtChrist is not the angel Michael
Pierre
If the hebrew and greek word for angel mean messenger and Jesus is a messenger of God, then Jesus is an angel period. If he isn't the chief messenger then the Islamists were right and i'm not accepting that.
Since the prophets spoke the word of God because they were carried allong by the Holy Spirit it would seem clear that the Spirit of God is the foremost messenger of God.I have no idea what Islam teaches though.
KerwinQuote I have no idea what Islam teaches though. since wen does it matter ?
Pierre
I don't recall if this verse was mentioned but I think that it is pretty clear that the Son of God is not considered an angel.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. If the Son was an angel then saying 'nor the Son' would be redundant.
Quote (Baker @ April 14 2011,09:18) To All! I had asked Georg, if He thought Jesus was an Angel. His rely was this, and I quote:” Is and was Jesus a Spirit Being? Yes, He was… Are the Angels Spirit Beings? Yes, they are. are they all called Son's of God? Yes they are. What we do have to remember that there are levels of greatness. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Then we have Archangels called Cherubs, like Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer who became Satan. Jesus is above them.,.,..I also believe that Jesus volunteered to die for us….No prove of that either, just IMO Now Jesus has immortality, which I don;t think Angels have. I can't prove that the Angels do, but there is no Scriptures, except that Lucifer or Satan and His Angels will go to the Lake of Fire, and will burn up, along with all wicked men…..
Peace and Love Irene
I know how difficult it is to believe that Jesus is an Angel, but these are the facts…..
Hi Irene,
Ask Georg if the Father is a spirit being too. So, if the spirit beings are angels, and God the Father is a spirit being, then God the Father would be an angel too. He is a messenger of Himself afterall. If all spirit beings that are sons are angels then why couldn't the Father be the head angel of all the sons?The Father is not an angel, the Son is the same nature as the Father and therefore not an angel either.
Matt 24:36
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.If the Son were an angel it would say:
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.
But it doesn't say that. The Son is not considered among the angels of heaven.
Peace to you,
KathiKerwin
Quote Since the prophets spoke the word of God because they were carried allong by the Holy Spirit it would seem clear that the Spirit of God is the foremost messenger of God. Ex 19:3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said
Ex 20:1 And God spoke all these words:
Ex 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently,
Ex 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.Ex 23:20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared
Ex 31:1 Then the LORD said to Moses,
Ex 31:2 “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah,
Ex 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts—
Ex 31:4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze,
Ex 31:5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanshipdid those scriptures show you reality?
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2011,14:54) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 14 2011,21:32) John 5:28 . 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice. the only voice mentioned in the thessalionians verse is the Archangel's. As for Jesus having God's trumpet, Jesus is also called the word of God and first and last etc. Does that make him God or follow with the angelic name Michael meaning “who is like god”?
So 5:28 means that Jesus is the archangel? Couldn't the archangel have heralded his arrival, and then Jesus begins to speak so that the dead hear his voice?I see what you imply, but one doesn't NECESSARILY have anything to do with the other. Surely you can see that?
And what about the seven archangels mentioned by Enoch, who was quoted a couple of times in scripture? Was Jesus just one of seven equal archangels?
Also, you didn't comment on Heb 1:4.
mike
It's not implication or inference the only voice mentioned in thessalionians is the archangel. I have to admit it's almost 90% conjecture though
As far as the Hebrews verse, Jesus was made higher then his companions(fellow messengers).
As for the Book of Enoch I don't read it because it's uncanonical in a lot of bibles and it contradicts the fact that there's only one Archangel mentioned in the bible.
Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2011,15:25) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,20:59) Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2011,03:47) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,00:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2011,09:15) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 13 2011,00:23) Hmm as a JW this is a really strong argument for Jesus being the highest angel possible or Michael the Arch. Thanks Mike, The rebuttals are getting punched in the face with your fist of grammar.
Hi between,I am not a JW, although I agree with them on almost every scriptural point there is. The Michael thing is one of the few exceptions. I believe that Michael was created through Jesus, as were the other heavenly messengers of God.
But thanks for the “atta-boy”.
mike
I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael?
BtChrist is not the angel Michael
Pierre
If the hebrew and greek word for angel mean messenger and Jesus is a messenger of God, then Jesus is an angel period. If he isn't the chief messenger then the Islamists were right and i'm not accepting that.
BWHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL?
The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name–“Who is Like God?”
He is referred to as “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS)I have answered that question to David the JW and i believe you too.
you can see were the comment of David changes the scriptures by saying “the great Prince ” wen it says “one of the princes”
Pierre
I'll get back to you after I finish studying the book of Daniel. Should be done by the end of summer
.Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:35) The Father is not an angel, the Son is the same nature as the Father and therefore not an angel either. Matt 24:36
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.If the Son were an angel it would say:
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.
But it doesn't say that. The Son is not considered among the angels of heaven.
Peace to you,
Kathi
You could say that, however it is not conclusive.Let's look at the sentence construction by replacing Jesus with the word “Michael” (as in the archangel).
So we now have:
Matt 24:36
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor Michael, but the Father alone.Or you could say: something like “but of the next election's outcome, no one knows the winner, not even politicians, not the president, only God knows.
The above makes still makes sense even though Obama is a politician.
Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,18:02) As for the Book of Enoch I don't read it because it's uncanonical in a lot of bibles and it contradicts the fact that there's only one Archangel mentioned in the bible.
However, there is no verse in scripture that says there is only one archangel. If the bible identifies one, it is not meant to be taken that there is only one.Also, at least 2 biblical writers quote from the Book of Enoch and a number of copies were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls too.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:25) I don't recall if this verse was mentioned but I think that it is pretty clear that the Son of God is not considered an angel.
Tell you what, if I show you one verse that says otherwise, then what would you do about that?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2011,17:47) Quote (karmarie @ April 14 2011,02:56)
Hi Mike.As I have said before, the best thing to do is use the Literal Translation, or lately Iv been using the World English Bible which I have found closest to the YLT.
Hi Kar,And as I've told you before, just because Young chose to name his translation “Literal Translation” does not mean it holds secrets that other translations don't know about. It is the simply the way that one man thought the Hebrew and Greek words should be translated.
In America we have a frozen yogurt company called “TCBY”. It stands for “The Country's Best Yogurt”. It doesn't mean it really is, just because that's what they named the company. Get it? Young's translation holds no secrets over any other just because he used “Literal” in the title.
How does Young render John 1:1? Because the LITERAL translation is: in beginning was the word and the word was toward the god and god was the word
If Young's doesn't say that, then it isn't really “literal”.
Quote (karmarie @ April 14 2011,02:56)
32 -We bring you good news of the promise made to the fathers,33 -that God has fulfilled the same to us, their children, in that he raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the *second psalm*, 'You are my Son. *Today* I have become your father.'
And I have tried and tried to explain this to you. Read verse 32, Kar. What PROMISE did God make to the fathers? Did God EVER promise to metaphorically beget a son? NO! What he promised was a savior and deliverer. That's the promise that was fulfilled by raising Jesus from the dead. And I've showed you this scripture about Paul a number of times also:
Acts 9:20
At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.The reason Paul keeps quoting Psalm 2:7 is not to specify any particular day that Jesus was begotten, but to apply that scripture TO Jesus in an effort to teach that Jesus WAS in fact the begotten Son of God mentioned in that Psalm.
Kar, if you only had the OT scriptures to use as support, and you were desparately trying to convince people that Jesus was God's Son, what scripture would you use?
You see? There aren't a lot to choose from, are there? You assume that people of that time period just “knew” Jesus was God's Son like we do. But they didn't have the NT to go by at that time. Paul was speaking to people who would be saying, “What Son? I don't know of any 'Son of God'.” So Paul was saying, “Check out Psalm 2:7 dudes. Jesus is this begotten Son of God that is spoken of there!”
Kar, John 3:18 has Jesus clearly saying that those who had already not belived in his name were already condemned because they had not believed (past tense) in the name of the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
How could anyone already be condemned for not believing in the name of someone who didn't yet exist?
This is off topic here.
mike
Hi Mike.I was only saying that because you said someone else had said something else and I pointed out that scripture would agree with them!
And Youngs literal changes a lot of thing's I find, but your right, it is off topic.
I think how (Istari) sees it is interesting. On Jesus being an Angel, and being risen to higher than an Angel at his ressurection. (If I got that right…Istari please tell me if I understood wrong).
I went to an Adventist Church for a while and they believe Jesus is an Angel, (Micheal).
Iv never thought of it either way. Maybe or maybe not. I think what Jesus is now is what is important.
I also believe what God says over any private interpretation. So when God said what I quoted in the firstborn over creation thread, (the whole chapter of Isaiah 45)
5 I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known me;
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me. I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.
14……………. There is no other god.
21 Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven't I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.
22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.And when God also said (Isaiah 55:11)
'so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.Well, Gods word was sent, as it says.
So I believe John 1:1 – As is in YLT and as is in Greek
YLT – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
And Greek – In the beginning was word and word was with God and God was word.
For comparison of the YLT and others, I go here
You put the verse in the top.
And the greek can be found by clicking Greek above the verse.
Maybe through a pre-existant Angel, I don't know.
Kathi,
When Jesus emptied himself and came to earth as man that means he was no longer an Angel.When he was a man – he was not an angel.
And the saying is pertaining to when he was a man on earth.
Please please please – can everyone get their head out the sand and get things in perspective – everything will become easier:
Angels … Are Spirit creations of God sent to do the work of God whether to deliver messages or do deeds or run errands…
Please please please – stop thinking of Angels as fluffy little child creatures with wings or women in long flowing robes with clasped hands prayer-style and bent necks and halos…. These are distorted visions painted by naive interpretations.Some Angels appear in the SHAPE of human beings with pure White apparel that signifies their holy status. These Angels are simple messengers who deliver a message and then return back to the spirit realm.
Some Angels appear as more normal human beings and stay for longer term to do deeds or need to be more persuasive… They may even show their power by acts or visual display of symbols of power (E.g. A Sword)
Other Angels can appear in non-human form such as fire or wind, visible or invisible.Angels have IMMENSE POWER but they only use as much as is required to carry out their tasks.
Angels of God do not misuse their powers BUT they can use their powers to achieve the commission they have been given – indeed they MUST, else they cannot return to Heaven where they would rather be!!To deny that Jesus was (Note: WAS) an Angel in heaven before he came as man is to deny his part in carrying out the errands, messenging, commissions etc given to him by his father – else what DID he do be worthy of being called SON OF GOD? (For the Son, while he is young, is no different to a servant!)
Many here appear to not be able to differentiate verses that pertain to Jesus in Heaven BEFORE he came as man, Jesus as Man In the FLESH, and RISEN CHRIST as Nevis now.
This leads to mixing up of references and errors of thinking about what is read, what is taught and what others are saying.
There is also the desire to try to valid or compound an idea by using out of sequence verses….
For instance, what is Jesus NOW?
Every Apostle says he is MAN… and …Spirit …!
The only mediator between God and Man: the MAN Jesus Christ!No ANGEL/Spirit has permanent personal body features… In fact, they are FEATURELESS apart from their appearance as man.
Jesus is different, he HAS permanent personal Human body features which he showed to his Disciples and will show again to those on Paradise Earth. This is indicated by the references in Revelation to the 'Lamb as if slaughtered' – his wounds are permanent as a constant reminder of his sacrifice in death.
In heaven, he is Spirit – and only so can anyone appear in heaven for even the Spiritual body of Christ cannot enter heaven.
How then does Jesus have a recognisable physical body on earth and yet is Spirit (Bodyless) in Heaven?To some, this is a mystery. To others, it is as nothing at all!
Spirits can CREATE physical bodies… And DE-Create them also…
Create a body and place themselves in it to animate it and are thence shackled to the 4-dimensional physical world – but with controlled Power!
Shed the body and return to invisible and unshackled Spirit world where night nor day, heat nor cold, hunger nor thirst, sleep, nor pain are of consequence, and time and distance are immaterial(!)KarMarie,
Excellent post again.Yes, as I outlined above – and many times before…:
Jesus was (In heaven), then wasn't (on earth) and still isn't (In heaven) – an Angel.
Jesus was not, then was (in the Flesh) and still is (but not in Flesh) – Man
Jesus was (In heaven), then was not (On earth) then was again (in heaven) – SpiritMike,
Why do you stress the words of the Scriptures…
Revelations 1 says that God gave the revelation to Jesus – and Jesus gave it to HIS Angel…You know that Jesus is ABOVE the Angels when God told them to Worship him (Please note everyone: ONLY THE ANGELS are to WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST!!)
God 'Gave' power and authority to Christ, just as Pharoah gave the same to Joseph. Did that mean that Jesus and Joseph were both still 'workers' of thier respective 'God'?
No! They are 'in place of' their respective 'God'Mike, it was the ANGEL of Jesus who brought the revelation to John and who spoke on behalf of Jesus.
This line of power is only correct. Jesus was not knowledgeable about the full details of the end of time – his father passed him the details and he passed them on to mankind through John.
Oh, about the other John, John the baptist! Once again you stress yourself over a non-issue!
I already told you but you just can't leave off pettiness! John the baptist was born in Sin – Jesus was not… Therefore Jesus was THE ONLY SINLESS MAN on earth. John the baptist di not go to heaven when he died – why not? Even David, did not go to heaven, nor Abraham, nor any of the Fathers, Prophets, Saints, Apostles, nor elders… They all wait the first resurrection where they WILL RISE and take their place with Christ
(Please use this information as support when KJ next raises the 'Lazarus in Abrahams bosom in heaven' misconjecture! Abraham was and is not in heaven and certainly not before before Jesus died and returned to heaven else how can he have said that no one has gone to heaven except hevwho has come down from heaven??)Mike,
Look back through the posts in here.. Every single person in this forum has accused you – some extremely vehemently yet you don't block them as quickly as you block me.The reason is you FEAR ME. the others you can happily argue with from morning till the cows come home because it appears that that is all you have to do with your time.
To actually agree any points with anyone is such a hard thing for you because you want to say a the time 'I said this…' Or… 'That'…
Your who reson-d'être is to argue and dispute and this makes you an extremely difficult person to deal with. You have no intention of learning what scripture actually says but just to try and force fit your ideas into whatever you read.
This brings you into conflict with the scriptures themselves which makes anyone doses valid view INVALID in your eyes and you go great guns on them trying to force them away from truth.Mike, when you do speak truth it is in such a fragile way that it leaves your opponent great big holes to drive alter-Arguments through creating endless dispute – tell me I never said this to you before?
Many of your disputes with WJ and KJ were near the Mark – but you missed it, took the wrong last turn in the maze… And, you fail to AGREE with your opponent even when THEY SPEAK TRUTH… preferring to just do as they do and present alter-arguments….
Mike, don't you see – you are just arguing AGAINST what someone else says and not looking into WHAT they actually ARE saying…
Remember. Even a 'fool' can speak truth (Without knowing it!) so if you dismiss them then it makes YOU the one who is misrepresenting the word of God!Also, you need to check you TIMELINE… measure each scripture verse against the timeline that is attached to. The scriptures is not 'beginning to end' like a chronological story book but is mixed up because EVERYTHING was written AFTER tens of years after Christ died — why? The Disciples and Apostles thought that the events would all happen in their lifetime so they wrote NOTHING DOWN at the time. Only when it was clear that they were wrong did they start to write their versions copying parts from each other at times – hence references to things that HAD ALREADY OCCURED being written AS IF THEY HAD NOT YET OCCURED': the their was not a their until after he was convicted of theft, yet we still say 'The THEIF was taken to court…', 'SAINT PAUL' was not SAINT PAUL until after he died…but we still write 'Saint Paul said…'
WHY? because it is after the event when we NOW KNOW the outcome…Jay, through all my years of research and where i'm at now (all these People here are where I was once on my own…with all the Church Fathers, all the books etc) well I came to a place of peace and understanding based more on spiritual than all the other stuff. Anyway, my understanding is that the word was God, as God said (Isaiah 55:11) 'so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.' So I understand, as i said, John i:1 with this. I don't believe at all in this two or Three God theory. I believe there is only One God, as it says, I believe it. However, as I see Gods word as being his word simple as that, I can see also how God spoke his word in the past through various means example the Angel of the Lord. And so, in these last day's, he spoke it through a Son. So, Old Testement says there are Sons of God being Angels (example in Job). So, God achieving this through a Son, an Angel Spirit being born as a Man,….no longer an Angel but risen to higher, it can fit my belief fine. Because I believe Jesus was a Man. I get it now. You could be just right. I'm seeing it…
Is this what you are saying?
Hi Kar, you have it exactly right.
I asked the question of what was Adam's in the beginning but dropped the baton – and how did Jesus picked up that baton and finished the race. What was that purpose?
Jesus accomished what Adam failed at – what was it Jesus accomplished but to prove that adherence as a Son in the flesh to the word of God successfully enables one to become a Son of God in Spirit as well.
Many here do not read that the Genealogy of Christ lists Adam as 'Son of God'.
It should then be asked, 'In what way was Jesus SON OF GOD differently from Adam?'
Their responses will be interesting….It seems some here are disputing just for the sake of dispute and their point if view changes with the wind and whom they are disputing with.
Perhaps the forum is just a pastime and they aren't really here to learn anything – but tonplay at aggravating others…
For instance, someone turned a perfectly understandable verse into mush by adding and swapping words and then claimed that their opponent did not understand scriptures – what was it now, oh yes: 'To which ONE of the Angels did God ever say…' (Which implies that God said it to ONE of the Angels'. But, of course, the word 'One' is not in the verse and the real verse structure does not allow for it… The real verse is stating in question form that God at no time said it to any of them – following on it them shows that it is only to the Son.
Why did this person decide to change s ruptures when that person knows full well that scriptures says 'Fdo not ADD TO [God's] word, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar' (Proverbs 30:56) and also Revelation 22:19 (do not TAKE AWAY from words of this book…)Kar, keep learning and believing as you have done but beware of overconfidence as Satan will be observing you and will not stray far from attempting to trip you up!
When I read this it says
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Two beings not one….
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The same was with God. The same is The Word of God. A title like God.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.This is clearly talking about Jesus. There is no other being that fits this description, unless you can show me one…
Then I also believe that The Word of God is Jesus.
Look at the verse 14 in John 1:1
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Is there another being that is called “the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth? I don't think so.
I don't know why anyone would deny this….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Istari @ April 16 2011,02:29) Hi Kar, you have it exactly right. I asked the question of what was Adam's in the beginning but dropped the baton – and how did Jesus picked up that baton and finished the race. What was that purpose?
Jesus accomished what Adam failed at – what was it Jesus accomplished but to prove that adherence as a Son in the flesh to the word of God successfully enables one to become a Son of God in Spirit as well.
Many here do not read that the Genealogy of Christ lists Adam as 'Son of God'.
It should then be asked, 'In what way was Jesus SON OF GOD differently from Adam?'
Their responses will be interesting….It seems some here are disputing just for the sake of dispute and their point if view changes with the wind and whom they are disputing with.
Perhaps the forum is just a pastime and they aren't really here to learn anything – but tonplay at aggravating others…
For instance, someone turned a perfectly understandable verse into mush by adding and swapping words and then claimed that their opponent did not understand scriptures – what was it now, oh yes: 'To which ONE of the Angels did God ever say…' (Which implies that God said it to ONE of the Angels'. But, of course, the word 'One' is not in the verse and the real verse structure does not allow for it… The real verse is stating in question form that God at no time said it to any of them – following on it them shows that it is only to the Son.
Why did this person decide to change s ruptures when that person knows full well that scriptures says 'Fdo not ADD TO [God's] word, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar' (Proverbs 30:56) and also Revelation 22:19 (do not TAKE AWAY from words of this book…)Kar, keep learning and believing as you have done but beware of overconfidence as Satan will be observing you and will not stray far from attempting to trip you up!
Istari! You ask how Jesus was different then Adam? Adam was made out of the dust of the earth, and He turned to dust just like all Humans will> Jesus on the other hand come from Almighty God, He is the literal Son of God full of grace and Truth John 1:14.
Jesus is the second Adam,,He is Son of God and Son of man…
You are right to say that Jesus accomplished what Adam failed to do. I don't lower Jesus to the same level as us Humans. He is and was the literal Son of God. I also believe that God had to send someone like Him, who was full of Grace and Truth. Anyone else, I believe would have failed. Al have fallen short of the glory of God,,.
We are all the Sons of God including the Angels, but we return to dust, Jesus body did not decay.As far as the Genealogy is concerned, yes on as a ma…that has no barring on anything. We all know that Jesus became flesh.
Sorry, buddy my view has not changed after I learned about Jesus preexisting….Why, because there are now 50 Scriptures that you and others will have to either change and add, or deny all together. John ;1 is not easy to understand, but other Scriptures in Col. Rev. and John 8:58 and others are plainly written. I don't know why you and others don't see it…..
Peace and Love Irene
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