- This topic has 732 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Hades and death are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death. This is the same fire that burns up the heavens and the earth. After that is a new heavens and Earth. A creation with no sin, crying, torture, etc. It will be perfect. God will dwell in all. This is the promise of God. For this we rejoice in God. Amen. The old has passed away. It doesn’t reside for eternity as many think.
Hi t8,
Where does scripture say that the heavens and the earth are burned up in the same fire, the lake of fire?
2 Peter 3:5-7
For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.…Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.Good. So let’s go through the events.
1) His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2) Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death.
If the first fire Hades? If so, Hades results in the destruction of heavens and earth and ungodly men.
If the first fire is the Lake of Fire, then that results in the destruction of heavens and earth and ungodly men.
Do you believe that there will be a fire that will result in the destruction of heavens and earth and ungodly men?
Hi t8,
Why do you think there is a direct connection between the fire that destroys earth and the lake of fire?
Scripture makes no such connection
Just because both involve fire does not mean we should assume they relate to the same thing surely .
Hi t8,
The KJV translates Mt 10.28 as HELL-the place of eternal punishment and destruction- and so does the NIV and the NASB[with gehenna in brackets]
The YLT specifies it as Gehenna [geena]
Hi t8,
The YLT uses both terms
Hades
mt 5.22. mt 5.29-30,Mt 18.9, Mt 23.15, Mt 23.33
Mk 9.43-47,
Lk 12.5
Jas 3.6
Gehenna
Mt 16.18,
Lk 10.15, Lk 16.23,
Acts 2.27-31
1cor.15.55
Rev 1.18
Rev6.8
Rev 20.13-14
There appears to be a difference that is not made clear in some translations
Hi t8,
If you look at the use of these terms by Jesus whenever he was warning men about the risk of their bad behaviours it was GEHENNA he seriously warned them about to the extend of plucking out of eyes and cutting off limbs[Where the fire is not quenched and the worm never dies-Mk9]
But with exception of the warning to Capernaum HADES appears in a different light.
It is the place that could not hold Jesus[acts 2.27-31], the place Peter was given the keys to in Mt 16, that also the place Jesus has the keys to[Rev 1 ]. Of course it is also the place the rich man found himself in after death in Lk 16
This is the place thrown in the lake of fire[rev 20]
Worth more study
Why do you think there is a direct connection between the fire that destroys earth and the lake of fire?
I would have thought it obvious. The wicked are destroyed in the same fire that destroys the heavens and earth. We also read that Death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Are you implying that there are two fires. If so, let me try to reason the events with these two fires.
The Wicked are destroyed in the fire that burns the heavens and earth. Then brought back to life and then live forever in the second fire where they are not destroyed? Obviously this cannot be the case.
If there are two fires, then they are contradictory because one fire destroys, so what does the Lake of Fire do? Yes worth more study as you say.
T8……There is a literal fire, and there is a symbolic fire used in scriptures, THE SYMBOLIC meaning is intense judgment , and as fire purifies metal through intense heat causing the impurities (dross) to be seperated and rise to the top where it can be removed leaving pure metal, so does intense judgement cause evil to surface where it can also be removed.
Jesus told us we would all besalted with fire. Paul also related to fire as a type of intense judgement, saying every mans work shall be trird by fire, if it endures the trial, he shall recieve a reward if not he will suffer a loss, but he himself shall be saved , yet as by fire (intense judgement). We have to determine if fire in a paticular scripture is given in a literal sense or a symbolic sense of intense judgements. IMOpeace and love to you and yours. …………..gene
If annihilation existed it would offer hope to those in hell – but tragically, hell is a place without hope.
People who commit suicide usually do so with the false belief that in taking their own life they will end the unbearable situation they are in – only to find that they take it with them into the afterlife…
They had a false hope – and it is this same false hope of annihilation that you hold up to people with your teaching.
Carnel…….here is no “specific” scriptures that say souls are eradicated, just as the is no “specific” scripture that a soul keep living after a person dies. Those are suppositions deduced by human reasoning. God may well save every human being he has created, THERE ARE SCRIPTURES THAT IMPLY THAT.
Eze 37:23 , ROM 5: 18….show this
All have sinned, and come short of the glory of GOD.
Mat12:31….All manner of sin shall be forgiven man except blasphemy Against the spirit, and that because it can’t be forgiven because the person is speaking against what is truth, so there is no possible way he can be forgiven as long as he does that ,he must cease from it. Why because truth is truth it mever changes
Christ died not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world’s, it says.
I do believe it is “POSSIBLE” everyone will be saved, not because who they are, but because who GOD THE FATHER IS. I am not saying that is going to happen , but it is possible. Scripture does say GOD IS LOVE, AND IT ALSO SAY GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY “PARISH”, SO IT’S “POSSIBLE”. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene
This is what T8 wrote:
Jesus dealt with sin once and for all. Not just each individual sin that was temporarily covered through the shedding of the blood of animals, but sin fullstop.
First I will talk about what you just wrote and then I will address the hell issue:
You say sin has been dealt with once and for all and yet you are told to pray and also to ask for forgiveness when you sin but more importantly some of those who have accepted Christ will be seen in a different light:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt 7:21-23)
So these are people that believe sin still seems to affect them for they can be barred from entering the Kingdom.
secondly:
HEBREWS 6:4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, (6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
So it appears from these scriptures sin still holds the same weight is already had in-fact Paul is saying if you fall away it you can’t even repent.
Jesus declares that you must run the entire race and endure to the very end so Sin is still sin, look about do you see sin defeated in any way? Defeat is only in the act of repentance.
regarding hell being eternal let’s just honestly look at that:
Jesus says regarding people in the afterlife:
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.Now Jesus says:
Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.Now saying a child of Hell places hell as a personal aspect or condition so lets proceed:
Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?Now I guess the entire argument here is the question, is being sentenced to Hell simply anihilation or lasting torment?
Well one thing for sure is when you die there would be no need to resurrect and judge you if the judgement is simply causing you to be dead in the same state you were already in i.e. not conscious of life if that is the case it certainly would work out very well for people that don’t particularly want to live in the first place so it doesn’t seem to fit into the Torment aspect of what Jesus says:Luke 16:23
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.Matthew 8:12English Standard Version (ESV)
12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
So now we see Jesus saying that there is an actual place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth so at this point we have a PLACE and we have TORMENT
Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.so now we have FIERY, PLACE and TORMENT
so at this point who is it that denies what I have examined up to this point? Those who say that God is all loving and would not put people in a Fiery place of torment or maybe some are saying that “God would put you in a place of fiery torment but just only until you burn up”, but the fiery place doesn’t seem to be BURNING up anything, it only seems to be hot enough to torment. A fire that annihilates doesn’t really torment as torment is a function of consciousness. If you fall in a volcano you will not be conscious the length of time it would take to even notice where you are, you would be annihilated without any torment at all so Jesus is saying Torment is in this place called Hell.
Now here is the most astonishing fact:
Luke 13:28
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.If you are annihilated how would you be able to see this? In-fact the torment must be just above bearable to be able to witness this:
John 19:28-2921st Century King James Version (KJ21)
28 After this Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst.”
29 Now there was set there a vessel full of vinegar; and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop, and put it to His mouth.
John 19-1 Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged.
John 18:12 So the band of soldiers and their captain and the officers of the Jews arrested Jesus and bound him.
During these terrible and tormenting moments Jesus was conscious enough to communicate and it is the same with Job, Job even wished to be annihilated rather than keep suffering.
Job 10:8 Your hands fashioned and made me,
and now you have destroyed me altogether.here we see Job saying in fact he has been destroyed and yet he is still in torment.
Job 18:17 His memory perishes from the earth,
and he has no name in the street.
18 He is thrust from light into darkness,
and driven out of the world.
19 He has no posterity or progeny among his people,
and no survivor where he used to live.
20 They of the west are appalled at his day,
and horror seizes them of the east.
21 Surely such are the dwellings of the unrighteous,
such is the place of him who knows not God.”Job 25:6 how much less man, who is a maggot,
and the son of man, who is a worm!”Now pay Attention:
Mark 9:44 Where the worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Okay, so there is a literal fire and a symbolic fire. Which one is this. Read it carefully before answering.
“His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”
So the heavens, earth, and ungodly will be destroyed. Explain how this is symbolic if that is how you handle this verse.
Will the wicked perish? Yes.
Will the wicked be destroyed? Yes.
Will the wicked be thrown into the Second Death? Yes.
Can God destroy both body and soul in Hell? Yes..
Does the spirit of man go back to God who gave it? Yes.
Is it true that only the righteous will inherit life eternal? Yes.
Is it true that only the righteos will partake of God’s living spirit for eternity? Yes.
So the wicked will not have eternal life in Hell fire? No because Hell itself is thrown into the Second Death and because man does not possess by right an eternal soul. God can destroy it and he will do that very thing because God is in the business of saving souls, but not all souls, only the souls of the righteous.
What I have noticed about DavidL is that he likes to use words against us that are associated with cults. Unfortunately for him, I myself and others only use scripture. So he is attacking scripture and he persecutes us for doing so. By what spirit spurs a man to do that? Is that not the behaviour of the Pharisees.
Hi t8,
”
I would have thought it obvious. The wicked are destroyed in the same fire that destroys the heavens and earth. We also read that Death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Are you implying that there are two fires. If so, let me try to reason the events with these two fires.
The Wicked are destroyed in the fire that burns the heavens and earth. Then brought back to life and then live forever in the second fire where they are not destroyed? Obviously this cannot be the case.”
Logic is not helping you as you are making presumptions and expect us to find them obvious?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
