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Also, regarding the 'ego eimi'…why would people die in their sins? They all believed that He existed. He was claiming something more than just existence that one had to believe.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2011,19:20) Nope, Kathi. I went to that thread AFTER I finished with this one. And I've already addressed your points over there. But to be fair, I brought up Rev 4:11 to you a couple of weeks ago – and until today you HAVE refused to address it. But since we are discussing it in the other thread, how about you address my “I AM I AM” post to Jack in this thread?
Not true, I have discussed Rev 4 with you before. See your response to what I said about Rev 4 here, as far back as Oct. 27th.see for yourself:
Actually Kathi,My first question (as anyone can see from the link you gave) was WHO the passage was about. Once you agreed that it was about the Father, THAT'S when the discussion about WHO EXACTLY created all things was to begin. It was THAT discussion that you overlooked, ignored, avoided, or whatever. And from your link, you can see where I bumped it for you THREE TIMES because you were overlooking, ignoring, or avoiding it.
You shouldn't try to make me out to be a liar. Jack has been trying that for over two years, and it always backfires on him like it just did on you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:28) I have also discussed “I Am” with you before but I will look to see what you said to Jack.
I've expanded on the thought I was trying to show you the last time. Please address the points in that post so we can see whether or not you're capable of grasping it this time.It's actually very simple. Any time Jehovah said “I am Jehovah”, the words “I am” preceeded the word “YHWH”. So the question is whether Jesus said “I AM I AM”, or just “I am”. Well? Which did he say?
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:46) Also, regarding the 'ego eimi'…why would people die in their sins? They all believed that He existed. He was claiming something more than just existence that one had to believe.
That's why the NIV has it right. They understand and translate the spirit of what Jesus was saying. He was saying that if you all don't believe that I am who I've told you I was, you will die in your sins.And WHO did Jesus tell us he was, Kathi? God? Or the Son OF God who was SENT BY GOD as a sacrificial Lamb?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2011,12:22) t8,
The 'ego eimi' does not have a direct object and that makes it significantly different than the other times. You don't seem to see that it makes a difference.
Kathi, if they asked if he was Jesus of Nazareth, and 'I am' is a sufficient answer if you wish to reply with a yes.If you think that 'I am' on its own is tantamount to claiming to be God, then you are mistaken. I can show you where others in scripture said exactly the same thing.
e.g., In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.”
Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.There are other scriptures where people said “Ego eimi” when referring to themselves and why should that come as a surprise. We find the same thing in English as in Greek. 'I am' in English does not also equate one to the I AM of Exodus either. You probably say 'I am' many times each week.
Kathi you are aptly demonstrating how a personal doctrine or biased view can colour nearly all scripture or physical evidence toward your own doctrine. This is perhaps the biggest cause of false doctrine on the planet.
The Trinity, Oneness, Evolution, and Atheism, all work this way. They have to accept the doctrine first, before they can make all evidence support the doctrine.
Like getting vinegar from a sponge. You need to first soak the sponge in vinegar.
Jack, will you address the fact that anytime Jehovah called himself by Name, He said “I am I AM”? Will you address the fact that Jesus never said that phrase?
Kathi? Will you address this point?
(Disclaimer: I am using the “I AM” definition of “YHWH” solely to make a point here. I believe that God's personal Name is “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE”, and that He told Moses to tell the Israelites that “I WILL BE” had sent him.)
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 15 2011,02:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2011,12:22) t8,
The 'ego eimi' does not have a direct object and that makes it significantly different than the other times. You don't seem to see that it makes a difference.
Kathi, if they asked if he was Jesus of Nazareth, and 'I am' is a sufficient answer if you wish to reply with a yes.If you think that 'I am' on its own is tantamount to claiming to be God, then you are mistaken. I can show you where others in scripture said exactly the same thing.
e.g., In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.”
Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.There are other scriptures where people said “Ego eimi” when referring to themselves and why should that come as a surprise. We find the same thing in English as in Greek. 'I am' in English does not also equate one to the I AM of Exodus either. You probably say 'I am' many times each week.
t8,
The 'I AM' of Exodus 3:14 is in the OT many, many times and it is not referring to the special name of God. Your argument has no bearing because the same things can be said about the Hebrew word for 'I AM.' It normally is just a state of being verb and nothing unusual in the OT.It is your bias that is coming through here t8. The vinegar is in your sponge. It seems that you prefer it that way. To each his own.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2011,21:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:46) Also, regarding the 'ego eimi'…why would people die in their sins? They all believed that He existed. He was claiming something more than just existence that one had to believe.
That's why the NIV has it right. They understand and translate the spirit of what Jesus was saying. He was saying that if you all don't believe that I am who I've told you I was, you will die in your sins.And WHO did Jesus tell us he was, Kathi? God? Or the Son OF God who was SENT BY GOD as a sacrificial Lamb?
Jesus affirmed what Thomas called Him when Thomas called Him his Lord and his God.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2011,17:00) Jack, will you address the fact that anytime Jehovah called himself by Name, He said “I am I AM”? Will you address the fact that Jesus never said that phrase? Kathi? Will you address this point?
(Disclaimer: I am using the “I AM” definition of “YHWH” solely to make a point here. I believe that God's personal Name is “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE”, and that He told Moses to tell the Israelites that “I WILL BE” had sent him.)
Mike,
What verses are you referring to with the 'I am I AM?'Also, the verb is not written in the future tense so it cannot be 'I will be…'
Kathi
Kathi,
Do a word search for “I am the LORD”. You'll see that whenever Jehovah claimed to BE Jehovah, the Hebrew word “aniy”, or “I am”, preceeded “YHWH”. Ie: “I am I AM”.
I don't know about the tense, but I know that the over 100 Trinitarian scholars that produced the NIV add a footnote saying “or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE”.
And I know that many other scholars echo this sentiment.
Yes, He did.
Click here to see one of the many times Jehovah said, “I am Jehovah”. Notice the Hebrew word “aniy” that proceeds His Name.
This shows that even if His Name was “I AM”, any time He claimed to BE “I AM”, He first said the word “aniy”, which means “I”, or “I am”.
In Hebrew, it says “aniy YHWH”. BOTH of those words TOGETHER mean “I am I AM”. (If “I AM” was really the meaning of YHWH)
I've looked up many of the scriptures where Jehovah says who He is. And I have yet to find one in which His Name is not preceeded by “aniy” when He's claiming to BE “YHWH”.
See the difference, Kathi? When Jehovah claimed to be Jehovah, He said “I am I AM”. When did Jesus ever say “I am I AM”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2011,12:02) Kathi, Do a word search for “I am the LORD”. You'll see that whenever Jehovah claimed to BE Jehovah, the Hebrew word “aniy”, or “I am”, preceeded “YHWH”. Ie: “I am I AM”.
I don't know about the tense, but I know that the over 100 Trinitarian scholars that produced the NIV add a footnote saying “or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE”.
And I know that many other scholars echo this sentiment.
Hi Mike,I never knew that you considered me to be a scholar?
Thank you,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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