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Quote Jesus did not come here to fix each problem that the world has one by one. He came here to teach the Kingdom of God which is perfect. His mission was not to perfect the old world, but to preach the new one. Why? Because this world is already judged and the age of darkness is fading away. This world has no future. Why bother with fixing this world, when there is a perfect Kingdom that God wants us to participate in. I understand this.
Satan has control over the world.
Jesus followers are to be no part of the world or imitate its ways.
The world is passing away.So yes, no point fixing every little thing in the world which is to be brought to nothing, because of its wickedness. But Jesus did give counsel on MANY things. He didn't just speak about how great the future would be. He condemned many wicked things saying that Christians should have no part in them. He also gave counsel on how to act and what to do. Given all the other things that Jesus commanded, I don't see it being terribly burdensome to add a sentence or two about slavery into his preaching. If he thought slavery should be done away with, he could very easily have stated as much. He never hinted at any negativity towards it.
Jesus:
LUKE 12:47,48
“Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.”(In this parable, Jesus approves of beating slaves, many strokes. Other slaves are to be beaten even if they didn't understand. Given this parable alone, it really seems like Jesus was completely ok with slavery and beating slaves. Therefore, we should be ok with it.)
Quote (t8 @ April 20 2014,09:05) Quote (david @ April 18 2014,16:28) But if this were just 100 or 200 years ago, and slavery were still legal, would forced slavery be wrong? And how would you scripturally defend that position?
Love your fellow man as you love yourself.I don't want to be a slave to another man, thus I will not enslave others.
T8,So if this were a couple hundred years ago and slavery is totally legal in every country pretty much, you are saying you wouldn't want to own slaves because we should love our fellow man as ourself (and I would add: do unto others as you would have them do to you)
You don't want to be a slave to another man. Therefore you will not enslave others. But taking that thought one step further, would any man want to be taken captive as a slave under forced labour? And if no one wants this and we are to do unto others as we would want them to do to us, then how can any Christian have slaves?
(I would like to again point out that when I use the word slaves, I'm referring to forced slavery.)
Quote (t8 @ April 15 2014,09:38) Quote (david @ Mar. 29 2014,10:14) A modest proposal: We institute forced slavery, as it was sanctioned in the Bible by God.
Hi david. Where is this sanctioned forced slavery that gives us the right to enslave people. I have quite a bit of work to do around the property today, so could do with a slave to help me. But need to know it is okay to cherry pick someone off the street first as I don't want to get into trouble. Look forward to the verses.
Putting legality aside for a moment it's very simple. Steal a human. Preferably a child or someone who won't fight you. Lock them up. Chain them up. Make them work. Hit them if they don't want to. It would help greatly if there was a system in place where escaped slaves were reported by non-slaves, and non-slaves were increasingly penalized if they didn't do this to the point where they could become a slave themself. Such was the US at one time.So, yes, other than today's present national laws, it would seem ok to take someone from the street and enslave them. (Unless they are your own people or fellow believers)
T8, is there any reason, other than today's laws, why this wouldn't be ok?
Quote (t8 @ April 20 2014,09:12) God teaches men lessons in this life. He uses the imperfect things in this world created by man and demon to discipline men. Enslavement was always a judgement. God knows the bigger picture better than you. And you question his character like Job's friends. That is fine. We need to know answers. If a perfect God could only teach us using perfect methods in this world, then he would have to remove us from the world to teach us. But in his wisdom, he disciplines and teaches us using the things of this world. He even uses the Devil to teach us. Even Jesus learned obedience by coming here.
This world has death, disease, war, famine, earthquakes, and iniquity. All are affected by these. What God is looking for is not to escape these things, but that we may be found faithful to God while being subjected to these things.
Quote (david @ April 18 2014,16:47) He didn't. Slavery was all around him. Paul mentioned it often. Paul seems to say we should keep teaching the doctrine concerning slavery.
Jesus did not come here to fix each problem that the world has one by one. He came here to teach the Kingdom of God which is perfect. His mission was not to perfect the old world, but to preach the new one. Why? Because this world is already judged and the age of darkness is fading away. This world has no future. Why bother with fixing this world, when there is a perfect Kingdom that God wants us to participate in. Besides, if men want to fix things in this world that they have created, then he doesn't stop us.
“A modest proposal:
We institute forced slavery, as it was sanctioned in the Bible by God.”Am I questioning god or am I suggesting that we do what he wrote rules for and never hinted at condemning?
Do you think this is a bad idea?
Of course as you say the world has death disease famine, earthquakes, etc. These things are I chosen.
The world also has rape, abortion, theft, murder, etc.If I wrote a book knowing that people are going to murder regardless of what I say, so I outline some rules on how to murder, would I not appear to be condoning it? More than that, imagine I was a king who had the power to find another way, other than murder. And yet I write a rule book explaining that this sort of murder is ok, but don't murder people with this weapon, etc. Again, it appears I am more than condoning it, but giving it my blessing.
Okay a lot of stuff to wade through here, but for now, I would say that not all slavery is bad as I have said, such as being a bond-servant of Christ by choice. But it is bad to enslave someone because you can. i.e., give them a horrible life so you can have an easier one. I don't see that as a loving thing for me to do. That said, God lets men be enslaved just as he lets men be killed, or be robbed, or knocked over the head with a frozen sausage.
God hands men over to worldly things sometimes, and uses these things to discipline his children and also as retribution or as a 'what you sew is what you reap' mechanism.
However, sometimes being a slave or bond-servant of a human master is not that bad. To some degree we are slaves to those we owe money to, such as the bank. And it is of course true that some slaves would die if their masters did not care for them and feed them in return for work. So you have to look at it in the light of each situation. But for me to grab a random person and enslave them, thereby depriving them of their family or life, then I don't even need to point out how wrong that is and you agree.
The reality is that we are slaves to those we owe and the price for what we owe could be light or very burdensome. Very few things are free, so the price for money you do not have or a house you cannot pay makes you a slave.
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has … The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.
It makes me laugh when the self-righteous say that the Bible is bad because it supports slavery and then they spend most of their waking life working their butts off to pay a mortgage. They too are clearly slaves to the lender.
And to the slaves in this world, is the gospel not a message of salvation and freedom from sin and the things of this world. God is trying to set us free. So right there, we have the true motive of God. He wants to set all the captives free. Do you still doubt?
David, regarding LUKE 12:47,48, Jesus is teaching that we are all slaves. We are all indebted to God, and we are all disciplined. Is that not the meaning of what it is to be a disciple.
When we knowingly do evil, then the price we pay is bigger than if we do it unknowingly.
We are living with sin and sin is being dealt with. Sure sin and this world is already defeated, but it is not yet defeated in each person's life. Thus we are in this position for now and treated like this because if we were not, then that would mean God has abandoned us and left us to perish. The fact that God let's life teach us lessons is his way to help us understand that sin is not good, is the love of God.
If God designed the human body to not feel pain, then how high would the death rate be. And how much more important is a human soul. Thus we live in a world where we learn obedience to God. Even Jesus lived with the same rules as us in that way. i.e, he too learned obedience by coming into this world.
This verse is not teaching us about people who work for us. It is not for us to act as God to other people. God knows what he is doing and we do not. God disciplines all for good reason. I bet when this world is over, we will see just how much God did in order to get each one of us to be with him. Sure he doesn't get every soul, but there will be no accusation levelled against him that he didn't try hard enough to save each one of us. And believe it or not, discipline and even judgement is God's mercy. If I murder and am sent to prison, then I have time to repent and see the error of my ways.
Slavery or servitude is not a bad word. Sure it can be used in a bad way, but so can anything. I am a servant of Christ and hopefully a servant of my fellow man. Jesus washed his disciples feet to demonstrate that we are here to serve one another. To somehow say that the slave trade in the USA's history is akin to that is not just. In fact what the Romans and the Pharisees did to Jesus and his disciples is more like what some did to the slaves in the USA. Chained, whipped, and generally treated with malice.
Quote That said, God lets men be enslaved just as he lets men be killed, or be robbed, or knocked over the head with a frozen sausage. But allowing something seems different than regulating it. And in some instances even commanding it.
No rules were made saying: “when killing you must use a knife, but not a stick.” Or “when stealing you can take this but not that.” God allows these things but doesn't condone and regulate them.There are of course some instances were god commands the Israelites to go and kill e men and enslave the women and children. So in those instances he is t simply allowing slavery. He is commanding that they take slaves.
Quote Okay a lot of stuff to wade through here, but for now, I would say that not all slavery is bad as I have said, such as being a bond-servant of Christ by choice. But it is bad to enslave someone because you can. i.e., give them a horrible life so you can have an easier one. I don't see that as a loving thing for me to do. That said, God lets men be enslaved just as he lets men be killed, or be robbed, or knocked over the head with a frozen sausage. T8, we don't really ever have to discuss being a slave/servant of Jesus or such type things. I would agree and am here only asking about forced slavery. We really never have to discuss these other things.
Quote However, sometimes being a slave or bond-servant of a human master is not that bad. To some degree we are slaves to those we owe money to, such as the bank. And it is of course true that some slaves would die if their masters did not care for them and feed them in return for work. So you have to look at it in the light of each situation. But for me to grab a random person and enslave them, thereby depriving them of their family or life, then I don't even need to point out how wrong that is and you agree. Yes I agree. I'm not totally sure mike agrees. But how can we believe this, believing it's something so wrong if it is something god repeatedly commanded in the past, and allowed, and never once condemned. This is the problem. Either we are wrong and slavery is not that bad.
Quote This verse is not teaching us about people who work for us. It is not for us to act as God to other people. God knows what he is doing and we do not. God disciplines all for good reason. I bet when this world is over, we will see just how much God did in order to get each one of us to be with him. Sure he doesn't get every soul, but there will be no accusation levelled against him that he didn't try hard enough to save each one of us. And believe it or not, discipline and even judgement is God's mercy. If I murder and am sent to prison, then I have time to repent and see the error of my ways. I am uncertain what discipline has to do with slavery.
Quote The reality is that we are slaves to those we owe and the price for what we owe could be light or very burdensome. Very few things are free, so the price for money you do not have or a house you cannot pay makes you a slave. T8, I know we are debt slaves or slaves in a sense. But reality is that no one can beat me with a stick right now if they want. Or at least it really doesn't happen.
The “slave” that I am is very different from the form of slavery of 100 years ago, or of the type of slavery the Israelites engaged in. I'm only here discussing actual slavery.Not so much metaphorical or figurative or debt slaves or slaves by choice or indentured servitude.
I'm really only interested in forced slavery. Ownership of humans. And against their will.
Quote It makes me laugh when the self-righteous say that the Bible is bad because it supports slavery and then they spend most of their waking life working their butts off to pay a mortgage. They too are clearly slaves to the lender. And to the slaves in this world, is the gospel not a message of salvation and freedom from sin and the things of this world. God is trying to set us free. So right there, we have the true motive of God. He wants to set all the captives free. Do you still doubt?
Yup. We are debt slaves. I understand that all money is debt. Every digit that was poofed into existence was done so as debt. And we will always owe more than we can pay. I think in the US, every citizen owes 200,000$ or something like that the moment they are born. We borrow from the future. I get that.
I am only concerned with forced slavery bible style.
Quote (t8 @ April 20 2014,22:24) David, regarding LUKE 12:47,48, Jesus is teaching that we are all slaves. We are all indebted to God, and we are all disciplined. Is that not the meaning of what it is to be a disciple. When we knowingly do evil, then the price we pay is bigger than if we do it unknowingly.
We are living with sin and sin is being dealt with. Sure sin and this world is already defeated, but it is not yet defeated in each person's life. Thus we are in this position for now and treated like this because if we were not, then that would mean God has abandoned us and left us to perish. The fact that God let's life teach us lessons is his way to help us understand that sin is not good, is the love of God.
If God designed the human body to not feel pain, then how high would the death rate be. And how much more important is a human soul. Thus we live in a world where we learn obedience to God. Even Jesus lived with the same rules as us in that way. i.e, he too learned obedience by coming into this world.
This verse is not teaching us about people who work for us. It is not for us to act as God to other people. God knows what he is doing and we do not. God disciplines all for good reason. I bet when this world is over, we will see just how much God did in order to get each one of us to be with him. Sure he doesn't get every soul, but there will be no accusation levelled against him that he didn't try hard enough to save each one of us. And believe it or not, discipline and even judgement is God's mercy. If I murder and am sent to prison, then I have time to repent and see the error of my ways.
Slavery or servitude is not a bad word. Sure it can be used in a bad way, but so can anything. I am a servant of Christ and hopefully a servant of my fellow man. Jesus washed his disciples feet to demonstrate that we are here to serve one another. To somehow say that the slave trade in the USA's history is akin to that is not just. In fact what the Romans and the Pharisees did to Jesus and his disciples is more like what some did to the slaves in the USA. Chained, whipped, and generally treated with malice.
I noticed that you don't seem to really be interested in or want to discuss bible slavery of the forced variety.None of this post seems to be about forced slavery.
You like to talk about discipline for some reason and like to talk about being a servant or follower of Christ as though that is the sort of slavery I am asking about. That is not “forced slavery” though.
And yes we are here to serve one another. But again, can I force another to serve me? While it's good to be a serving person, this has very little to do with my question.
T8, based on your responses I sort of feel we are experiencing cognitive dissonance or something like it. I always feel this is the case when someone seems to be trying so very hard to not see something.
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