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Hi Martian,
The apostles baptised new converts in water.They heard directly from the Master what to do.
Do you think they were in error?Hey all,
Quote James was written while the foundation still being laid and the “elementary principles” of Christ were still in effect.[ The epistle of James was true and applicable when it was written[/b]. The most widely accepted dating for the book of James is
AD 50-60.Quote But the book of Hebrews was written near the end of the building of the foundation and the author warned those Jews to “NOT lay again” the foundation. The most widely accepted dating for the book of Hebrews is AD70.
Quote Paul said that he had laid the foundation (1 Corin. 3). The most widely accepted dating for 1Corithians is AD55.
So, James was written AD50-60. Somewhere during that time
Paul laid the foundation as written in 1Corinthians c. AD55.Quote James was written at least two and one half decades before Paul's new faith alone gospel was revealed. Where is the proposed 25 year spread?
Actually, James was written sometime during the introduction of Paul's foundation, probably.
Hebrews appears to be written abbout fifteen years after the introduction of Paul's foundation. Most widely accepted is that it was written to Judiac converts encouraging them not to return to Judiasm introduced BC (before Christ). They were not to lay foundation anew.
Quote Baptism belonged to the foundation and NOT the super structure itself. It's really that simple! Yes! Quite simple!! And you do not discard what belongs to the foundation to build your superstructure lest your superstructure fall.
Seeking
Hi,
The world is full of people prating about the kingdom.But the biggest lack of understanding comes from lack of obedience
Jn3
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Mt6
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Thethinker,
Thank you for your posts on this – I agree with what you are saying – excellent explanations!!!
Hi,
Water baptism is submitted to by those who have read the bible and believe in what is teaches is true and agree that the ways of God are best even though they offend our pride and sensibilities.Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 30 2009,11:46) Thethinker, Thank you for your posts on this – I agree with what you are saying – excellent explanations!!!
I second that!
Martian said:
Quote Water baptism is only a shadow of the deeper emersion we are to have in the Character of God as shown through His son Jesus. Hey Martian,
I think we agree on something. Be cool dude!thinker
Nick……..What might help you understand is to go back and understand what Baptism was originally for, then go from there. Then take it from the Physical level and See how the Spiritual Baptism of Christ cleans us Spiritually. The Physical was only a shadow of the Spiritual reality. Think about it use you GOD given Brain brother.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………….gene
Seeking said:
Quote The most widely accepted dating for the book of James is
AD 50-60.This is not possible for two reasons. First, James gives no explanation of the death of Christ which would have been very strange if it was written so late. Second, James would have been contradicting Paul if it was written so late for Paul taught that Abraham was justified apart from works (Rom. 4). But James said that Abraham was justified by his works. Therefore, James had to have been written much earlier before God revealed to Paul the true case in regards to Abraham's justification.
Quote The most widely accepted dating for the book of Hebrews is AD70. This also is not possible. Hebrews makes mention of the temple as still standing (chap 9). So Hebrews had to have been written before ad70. My sources say that Hebrews was written about ad49.
Quote The most widely accepted dating for 1Corithians is AD55. I agree with your date for 1 Corinthians.
Therefore,
James: Long before ad49, the early part of the construction of the foundation, still old covenant
Hebrews: ad49, near the completion of the foundation, new covenant on the horizon with warning to not lay the foundation again
1 Corinthians: ad55, the foundation completed, the new covenant age “at hand”
Post-apostolic age: New covenant age and principles takes full effect, we are to build upon that foundation and to not lay it again.
blessings,
thinkerHi,
God watched His beloved son painfully die.
Now He makes it so easy to be joined to His Family.
Those who are baptised are baptised into the death of His son.Rom6
This is the first use I find of Baptism in scripture.
Exodus 29:1-17(NIV) reads:
Quote 1 “This is what you are to do to consecrate them, so they may serve me as priests: Take a young bull and two rams without defect. 2 And from fine wheat flour, without yeast, make bread, and cakes mixed with oil, and wafers spread with oil. 3 Put them in a basket and present them in it—along with the bull and the two rams. 4 Then bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water. 5 Take the garments and dress Aaron with the tunic, the robe of the ephod, the ephod itself and the breastpiece. Fasten the ephod on him by its skillfully woven waistband. 6 Put the turban on his head and attach the sacred diadem to the turban. 7 Take the anointing oil and anoint him by pouring it on his head. 8 Bring his sons and dress them in tunics 9 and put headbands on them. Then tie sashes on Aaron and his sons. The priesthood is theirs by a lasting ordinance. In this way you shall ordain Aaron and his sons.
Of course if you do not want to be part of the priesthood of God that is your choice and like everyone you will suffer the repercussions for your choice.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 31 2009,11:36) Seeking said: Quote The most widely accepted dating for the book of James is
AD 50-60.This is not possible for two reasons. First, James gives no explanation of the death of Christ which would have been very strange if it was written so late. Second, James would have been contradicting Paul if it was written so late for Paul taught that Abraham was justified apart from works (Rom. 4). But James said that Abraham was justified by his works. Therefore, James had to have been written much earlier before God revealed to Paul the true case in regards to Abraham's justification.
Quote The most widely accepted dating for the book of Hebrews is AD70. This also is not possible. Hebrews makes mention of the temple as still standing (chap 9). So Hebrews had to have been written before ad70. My sources say that Hebrews was written about ad49.
Quote The most widely accepted dating for 1Corithians is AD55. I agree with your date for 1 Corinthians.
Therefore,
James: Long before ad49, the early part of the construction of the foundation, still old covenant
Hebrews: ad49, near the completion of the foundation, new covenant on the horizon with warning to not lay the foundation again
1 Corinthians: ad55, the foundation completed, the new covenant age “at hand”
Post-apostolic age: New covenant age and principles takes full effect, we are to build upon that foundation and to not lay it again.
blessings,
thinker
Hi thethinker:You mean building on the foundation like wood, hay and stubble?
Quote 1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Hi,
We need our sin forgiven and the filthy garments of our imagined righteousness covered.
Zech3
1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Nck………So God can do this for some but not for all according to you teachings right. Joshua who was covered with filth God simply Just took it away , but the rest of his creation he would never do that to right?
love and peace……………………..gene
GB,
Have you found anywhere where is says the pots of the Potter are all for glory?
That would be a useful verse for you.Rom9
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Empty speculations do not offer much.
Hi thethinker:
Neither those under the Law of Moses nor we are saved by works because we even while we are obeying God's commandments we make mistakes. Under the law of Moses, the sinner offered the blood of an animal to atone for their sins, and once a year on the day of atonement the High priest went into the holy of holies with blood for his own sins and for the sins of the nation of Israel. This was done every year and every year there was remembrance of sins, but Jesus our High priest has given his life as a perfect sacrifice that does not have to offered ever again. The animal sacrifice was symbolic of the sacrifice that Jesus would make for the sins of the world, both Jew and gentile.
The Apostle Paul stated that we are saved by faith, and used Abraham as an example of this, saying Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. Believing is not just a mental assent. Abraham believed God's promises and his works of obedience to God showed that he believed God. There is no conflict between what the Apostle Paul and James in his epistle. We are saved by faith (we have believed God), and through our works of obedience our faith is made manifest. Paul states the following:
Quote Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. And Jesus put it this way:
Quote Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Quote Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, but what does have to do with God rewarding us for our works.
Quote Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. You say:
Quote We are warned to now build upon that foundation AND TO NOT BUILD IT AGAIN. We build upon that foundation by the preaching of Paul's faith alone gospel which was “kept secret” but was revealed to us in the appropriate time One can only build on this foundation with the Word of God. Any thing else will be burned up.
942767 said:
Quote You mean building on the foundation like wood, hay and stubble? Hi Marty,
Paul explicitly said that we are to build upon the foundation with gold and precious jewels. These represent God's new covenant principles. The wood, hay and stubble are the things of the old covenant. Baptisms belong to the old covenant and are therefore wood, hay and stubble.We build upon the foundation by teaching obedience to God according to the spirit of the law. Jesus said:
Quote But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him, (John 4:23). Did you feel that? The Father “is seeking” people who worship Him according to the spirit of the law. But we put people back under the letter of the law when we mandate baptism, observing the sabbath or tithing or any other old covenant, ceremonial law.
Gos speed,
thinker942767 said:
Quote Neither those under the Law of Moses nor we are saved by works because we even while we are obeying God's commandments we make mistakes. Under the law of Moses, the sinner offered the blood of an animal to atone for their sins, and once a year on the day of atonement the High priest went into the holy of holies with blood for his own sins and for the sins of the nation of Israel. Marty,
Under Moses they were required to offer animal sacrifices continually. And you say this is not works salvation? And what about circumcision? When God instituted this ritual to Abraham he said that the male that was not circumcised was to be “cut off from the people” (Gen. 17). This meant that the uncircumcised man could not be a part of the covenantal community.James explicitly says that Abraham and Rahab were saved by works (James 2). Your interpretation fails to show the difference between the old and new covenants. What do you think God meant when He said “I will make a new covenant”?
thinker
Marty,
Quote Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
(Jam.2;18-19 NIV)James is simply illustrating that performance must equal proclamation and, on the part of demons, it does not.
He is in no way saying performance saves. Grace saves
Quote James explicitly says that Abraham and Rahab were saved by works (James 2). Not true!
Quote JAS 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? The text speaks nothing of salvation it addresses consideration ( considered righteous ) based on performance.
James is simply saying Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do let your walk match your talk!
Seeking
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2009,15:01) GB,
Have you found anywhere where is says the pots of the Potter are all for glory?
That would be a useful verse for you.Rom9
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Empty speculations do not offer much.
Nick……….God can remake the vessel anytime He choses even after it is crushed in death, He can take the pieces and remake it. You yourself was a vessel of wrath at one time right. Again you deny the power and WILL of GOD. This is not the (ONLY) day of salvation , but (A) day . Lets not limit GOD Nick, by calling him a failure and having to through his Children into a literal lake of Fire. Simple logic should tell you that if God created a vessel a certain way, it not the vessels fault, So what justice is served in destroying it in a lake of literal fire. One man life is just as important as another's right. God is able to save All and I believe He will ultimately do that. O and by the way even the vessels of wrath glorify GOD. They show He has wrath, and the vessels of mercy show He has mercy. Both show God's goodness and his severity, But God is able to resurrect those vessels of wrath and remake them into vessels of mercy also.
So to write them of is a speculation on your part right Nick? And if you will notice Paul is Speculating (WHAT IF) He did not say that was the case did he.peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
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