Is baptism needed for salvation?

[Henoch]

hi charity,

Elijah was not returned yet as well as Enoch… They will come back on earth someday as God will. you need to check out the link one more to understand more about Baptism

http://www.eotc-mkidusan.org/English/Dogma/index.htm

[NickHassan]

topical

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
You showed us a video of JW baptism.
Is JW baptism the same as believer's baptism?
Do everyone have to be rebaptised according to the JW way?
I read that you have to fulfill hundreds of prerequisites to be baptised as a JW.
Does that align with the the words of Jesus who said “let the little children come to me”?

[kejonn]

There are some denominations that think so. Do you have any proof for against?

I do not refute that it is strongly encouraged as an act of obedience and a public display of your new life, but is it required? I do not think so. The thief on the cross is the consummate example.

I apoligize if this has already been discussed. I did not see another thread.

Thanks!

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Lots of other threads.
The thief died under the old covenant.
The new was signed in the blood of the sacrificed lamb.

Nothing has changed from the days of the apostles.

[NickHassan]

Hi kj,
However the answer is no.

God is sovereign and has lots of promises of salvation by His Mercy alone written in scripture by the second resurrection[mt25].

The answer is yes if you wish to follow Christ into his millenial reign

[NickHassan]

topical

[NickHassan]

topical

[kejonn]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2007,08:55)

Hi KJ, Lots of other threads. The thief died under the old covenant. The new was signed in the blood of the sacrificed lamb. Nothing has changed from the days of the apostles.

Only problem with this answer is that you stated in another post about Nicodemus needing to be born again of water and spirit. Nicodemus was under the Old Covenant as well at the time, so the two events conflict.

I will use the other threads for any further replies.

[NickHassan]

Hi kj,
Jesus was preparing the soil for planting.
He did not baptise men in the Spirit till he returned to heaven

[Laurel]

This makes sense to me, that everyone who was baptised with water, which was all Israel, and died, will receive the gift of the Spirit at His return. I didn't read this anywhere that I can remember, but it sound like a loving and caring thing to do.

I do not think Nick realizes that they too had to believe in the Messiah to be saved. That is plain when we read the prophets. It is plain when I study the Feasts.

Today most people do not do according to the Word. Abraham taught salvation through Messiah.

[NickHassan]

Hi L,
Were all Israel baptised?
Were all at the time of JTB baptised?

1Cor 10 is interesting

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6Now these things were our examples, ..”

[Laurel]

The custom of Israel before the time of Messiah was to be baptised. We know that baptism in water is a shadow of baptisim of the Spirit. I believe that it is an outward sign of an inward occurance. I think baptism with water is good for two reasons. One: Y'ashua was, and Two: It shows other people we have made a commitment to YHWH, and we follow Y'shua Messiah.

Just like today everyone who is baptised with water does not recieve the fullness of the Spirit at once, like the Messiah recieved all. We receive Spiritual gifts according to His grace. Some people are more blessed with Spiritual gifts than others, but we all have the ability to obtain more, according to our understanding, belief obediance and how we use what we already have. He gives us to know what we are ready to know.

As for your question were all baptised before John the Immerser? I'd have to say no. Are all baptised today? No. Did all Jews follow Elohim at that time? No. Do all Jews today follow Elohim? No.

The times that Y'shua lived were like the dark ages. There was human sacrifice, much witchcraft, sun-worship etc.

I know this because when Messiah was born, Herod questioned the Chalden astronomers who were called the wise men who brought gifts to the child. Herod was fearfull he'd lose his reign, so he sent out men to murder all boys under the age of two years old. Many tiny children were murdered. Scripture says Rachel, weeping for her children, was fulfilled at that time.

Rachel was Jacob's wife he was called Israel, Rachel the mother of Joseph and Benjamin tribes of Israel.

So I believe if I was living in the time of the birth of the Messiah, I would have fled town when I saw Mary and Joseph leave. Some probably did, but most of the people weren't paying attention to the Signs in the heavens or to what was going on around them. I think it is clear that many people were church goers but not church doers, just like today.

[NickHassan]

Hi L,
Good post . Thanks.
Water baptism's relevance is shown in 1 Peter 3-'outward sign of inward change' is the catholic magic view but faith and repentance are necessary.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Henoch @ Jan. 23 2007,15:55)

To be baptized means, literally, to be rinsed in water. Mystery of Baptism is a Sacrament by which the Baptised is endorsed as a child of the Holy Trinity. http://www.eotc-mkidusan.org/English/Dogma/index.htm

Hi Henoch,
The word SACRAMENT does not appear in scripture.

It was added by men to promote the use of ritual without the requirement of repentance and faith.

Thus it suited those who would tick boxes and was the applied as of magic to unknowing infants and was taught as the way of salvation.

BTW there is no trinity in scripture either.

[Not3in1]

Bump for Jodi and general interest. It's a great topic.

Some believe you have to be baptised to be saved!

[theodorej]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,18:38)

Bump for Jodi and general interest.  It's a great topic.   Some believe you have to be baptised to be saved!

Greetings Mandy….This is a topic that has had my attention for some time …..The question is, Is there a Baptism of desire? And if there is, Where is the scriptual proof….

[Not3in1]

Theo, good point to ponder.

I believe that if you call yourself a Christian – you should use the NT as your guide for living and following the rules therein. And we are told that the disciples water baptized people. We are told that people believed, they were baptized, and they were “added” to their number. Why should baptism today be “optional”?

Can we look to other things and choose them to be optional. Or is the belief that when the spirit came it took the place of water baptism? Were folks baptized after pentecost?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,03:13)

Theo, good point to ponder. I believe that if you call yourself a Christian – you should use the NT as your guide for living and following the rules therein.  And we are told that the disciples water baptized people.  We are told that people believed, they were baptized, and they were “added” to their number.  Why should baptism today be “optional”?   Can we look to other things and choose them to be optional.  Or is the belief that when the spirit came it took the place of water baptism?  Were folks baptized after pentecost?

Hi Mandy,

Why was John baptising people even before he knew of Jesus and what Jesus was going to command?
For that matter, John was the cousin of Jesus, why did he not even know Him when He came to be baptized?
Lastly, why did Jesus need to be baptized in the first place?

Tim

[942767]

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 28 2008,04:44)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,03:13) Theo, good point to ponder. I believe that if you call yourself a Christian – you should use the NT as your guide for living and following the rules therein.  And we are told that the disciples water baptized people.  We are told that people believed, they were baptized, and they were “added” to their number.  Why should baptism today be “optional”?   Can we look to other things and choose them to be optional.  Or is the belief that when the spirit came it took the place of water baptism?  Were folks baptized after pentecost? Hi Mandy, Why was John baptising people even before he knew of Jesus and what Jesus was going to command? For that matter, John was the cousin of Jesus, why did he not even know Him when He came to be baptized? Lastly, why did Jesus need to be baptized in the first place? Tim

Hi Tim:

You addressed Mandy, but if it is ok, I will give you my understanding of this.  

First, John the Baptist was a prophet, and in this office he receives the unction from God to speak in his behalf at a particular time.  He did not know that Jesus was the Messiah until God by His Spirit revealed it to him.

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Jhn 1:25  And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? Jhn 1:26  John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; Jhn 1:27  He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. Jhn 1:28  These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. Jhn 1:29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Jhn 1:30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.          ( Your question as to why John baptized in water, and also, that John did not know him until he was revealed unto him) Jhn 1:31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

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Jhn 1:32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. Jhn 1:33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. Jhn 1:34  And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Jesus was baptized in water as an example to those who would follow him.  It was an act of righteousness.  A work of obedience to God.

Quote

Mat 3:14  But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? Mat 3:15  And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

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