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Hi Jodi,
You Quoted Me:
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
All the saints from the OT forward had not received “the promise” yet until Pentecost. Notice it is one promise “the promise”.
You: At Pentecost men who were ALIVE received a GIFT from the Spirit, they were led by the Spirit for the purpose to establish FAITH, to edify the body of Christ, to come together in Unity of FAITH believing that Jesus is the Son of God a perfect man.
Me: I must have missed it. Show it to me.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Me: You are wrong again. Great faith is believing without seeing.
Hi Jodi,
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Me: The apostles were assembled together to receive the baptism of the holy spirit. They had faith in the promise before they assemble there to receive that promise. You don’t need to be present at Pentecost to establish FAITH in the promise. The future generations were not at Pentecost with the apostles to establish faith. Rather, those there and others later would be baptized in the spirit. Verse 17-20 speaks of all the wonders that will happen from that Pentecost, the day the NT church came into being. It ends in verse 21 where those that call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. This is water baptism mostly, an outward sign of the faith in the resurrection to save us from our sins. When one calls upon the name of Lord, in faith and repentance, he is then baptized with the holy spirit. The baptism of the holy spirit is different and separate from water baptism. Water baptism shows are faith in the Promise to receive the holy spirit with eternal life and the repentance to receive it.
Read it Again:
Acts 1:4 …but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.Hi Jodi,
2 Cor 6:2 For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
We receive the promises now when we are baptized with the holy spirit, not at Christ return.You: There is absolutely NO account that dead people came alive and received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. NOW IS THERE TC? You are adding that in. We are given the account and there is NO mention of what you are saying.
Me: Yes there is, arrogant one. That is the whole purpose of Pentecost, the early small harvest, the feast of weeks—the resurrection from the dead in spirit.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Me: We learned the word of God from not just the context of a chapter we are reading, but from the whole bible itself.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:, 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today (at this time) shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Me: Where is Paradise?
2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Me: This was a vision (vs 1). Paul did not know whether this man was “out of body” which would be before Christ returns or in his body at the time Christ returns. Paradise is in heaven.
2 Cor 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life…6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 7 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Me: Notice, we can be absent from the body in vs 6-9. We do not need to be in the body in verse 4. Verses 4-6 right below that state that we do not need to be in the body to be present with the Lord.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/revelation/6-11.htm
Click on the above link:
Rest: anapauó: to give rest, give intermission from labor, by impl. Refresh
Me: There is nothing about being death.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-13.htm
Me: Click on the link above. Then click on 2837 above “having fallen asleep”
One definition: to cause to sleep, put to sleep (Homer, et al.); metaphorically, to still, calm, quiet, (Homer, Aeschylus, Plato); passive to sleep, fall asleep: properly
Me: This definition, and not death, corresponds with the definition of rest in Rev 6:11.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little
Me: This is how you understand scripture. You get the understanding by combining scripture from elsewhere, not just from the immediate context.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Me: This is also how you also do not understand scripture, not just looking at the context of the scripture in question.
Hi Jodi,
Me: You need to reconcile Romans 6:4, Gal 5:24, 2 Cor 12:1 2 Cor 5:4, 6-9, John 5:25, John 11:23 with 1 Thes 4:13-16, which you have not done.Hi Jodi,
You:
1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Me:
https://biblehub.com/greek/450.htm
Me: Click on the link above. Rise can mean appear.Romans 6:4 were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ,
Me: Click on the link below: Then click on 4862 above “with”
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/6-8.htm
Definition: with, together with (expresses association with)
Click on the below link. Then click on 1722 above “in”
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-16.htmDefinition: in, on, at, by, with
Me: Thus the dead in Christ in Romans 6:8 is basically the same as the dead in Christ in 1 Thes 4:16. We die in or with Christ before Christ appears.
1 Thes 4:8…we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Me: We who have been baptized are the dead to our spirit of the flesh and alive to the heart of Christ in our spirit minds (Ezk 36:26). Our spirits are raised to life at this time. We receive new bodies in lieu of our crucified ones at the first resurrection.
We crucify the flesh. Even if . the dead in Christ were to mean those bodies that are dead, we are alive with Christ always.Heb 13:5 …for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.Hi Jodi,
You: TC, this is how down right absurd your understanding is, the ABOVE passage was not only written AFTER Paul BECAME an apostle, but it states that the dead rise from their sleep at Christ’s second coming. Hebrews 11 is obviously speaking of the promise of eternal life, not a promise of Christ’s followers who would receive the Spirit at Pentecost.
Me: Receiving the spirit of life with Christ sacrifice is the fulfillment of the promise of life.
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Me: Christ’s followers receive the spirit at Pentecost with Christ’s sacrifice in it . That is when they receive eternal life, for by man came death, by man came the resurrection from death (1 Cor 15:21) .
You: You likewise deny the scriptures that say that Jesus rose to glory, he rose incorruptible, he rose in power, NOT he ascended to heaven afterwards and received glory. Just because the promise at Pentecost was to occur after he had ascended, doesn’t equate to him receiving his glory when he ascended, he had already received it and people were witnesses. Did you ever think that they received the Spirit on Pentecost as that was a Holy Day established after Exodus that would have a future fulfillment like all other Holy Days do? Jesus knew when Pentecost was coming it’s on a certain day according to God’s calendar, so knowing when it was time for him to ascend and knowing the time of Pentecost, he told his brethren that this promise would not come until after he had ascended.
Me: More nonsense from you. Read.
https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/8368/was-jesus-resurrected-body-the-same-as-his-glorified-body-that-he-now-has-in-he
https://bible.org/question/what-difference-between-ressurection-body-and-glorified-bodyYou:
Acts 13:36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed.
Me: True, Christ was not sacrificed until the NT.
You: 9 (Acts 2:26?) Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope
Me:
New American Standard Bible
Acts 2:26 ‘THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
Ezk 36:26 says that we will have a new heart, a heart of the flesh of the Messiah. It follows he will have new flesh because the heart and mind (seed) is the foundation for a new body (1 Cor 3:9, 15:38, ). It is David’s new flesh that is his hope.You:
Acts 2:10 (27?). For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Me:
Acts 2:10 (NIV) because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.Me: I believe the NIV has the better translation here. There will be only one spirit in the end (Eph 4:4). Therefore “ realm of the dead” is better than “my soul”. It is only Christ that had his body transformed into one of the spirit (Rev 1:7). There is nothing here that suggest that David’s body will be transformed. It is only Christ’s body that did not see decay.
You: David knew that he would rise again from the dead. David is of them which are asleep that will rise at Christ’s second coming to receive the promise of eternal life, the water of the fountain of life, where you are Born of God, a child of God incapable of sin.
Me:
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
We have eternal life now if we don’t blow it.Romans 8:10 …the body is dead (mortal) because of sin…
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros’)
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.
1 Cor 15:53 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.Me: Two different bodies.
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked (our old bodies are mortal). 4 For we that are in this tabernacle (temporary dwelling) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Me: When we are clothed with our bodies in heaven, then we will not be naked but with new bodies.
We have two minds, one of the flesh and regenerated one of the regenerated mind now. We sin when we follow the flesh or the spirit and mind of the flesh. We cannot sin in our spirit minds now.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God…11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Hi Jodi,
You: I have never said that everyone is resurrected at the same time, the unjust I have said are resurrected 1,000 after the first resurrection which occurs at Christs second coming as we are clearly told in Thes 4.
Me:
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour (time) is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
verses:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Me: You are wrong. The first resurrection is a special on for those they will be priest and kings. The one after the 1000 is for every one else, just and unjust.
You: What we are told is that the saints of the OT, and the Saints of Paul’s day and the Saints alive now who might die before Christ’s return, SLEEP the sleep of death, and they are NOT to receive the promise of eternal life apart from each other, they receive it together when Christ’s descends. Just these are changed, then those still alive in Christ are changed meeting him in the air to forever be with him.
You: 1 can say that I do not think I have encountered someone who treats scripture so poorly as you do.
Me: You should look in the mirror. If you can’t dance, don’t blame the music. You are a lot of smoke with little fire.
Matt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
TC…….You may be mixing up the word FAITH, with SUPPOSITION ,
Bible meaning of the word FAITH…..Faith “IS”, the substance of thing hoped for, (which is brought TO YOU by), THE “EVIDENCE” OF THINGS NOT SEEN. I added between the Colon marks.
Qestion, how do you get the “EVIDENCE”, OF (or from) THINGS “NOT” SEEN? WHO is the one not seen, Is it not GOD?, DID not that God say, “I am found by those that deligently seek me?
GOD THE FATHER gives his presence to all true CHOSEN CHILDERN OF HIS. How?, by answering prayers, by speaking to them, by mircales in their lives, yes the unseen God show’s himself in the lives of all his true childern that seek him, and that is the “EVIDENCE” being spoken of there.
Now hear a parable Jesus gave concerning true faith, There was in a city a Judge who did not fear God nore respect man, an in that city there was a old widow women, who wanted him to help her, but he kept putting her off , but she kept comming back day after day, until Finally he said ,though I fear not God, nor respect man , I will hear the women, lest her continue comming ware me out. Jesus said did you hear what the ‘UNJUST JUDGE SAID”? , And will not GOD AVENGE his own elect who cry unto him morning and night, will he Terry long over them?, (put of as the unjust judge did) I tell you he will avenge them “SPEEDELY”, never the less when the son of man comes will he find FAITH ON THE EARTH?
You see many even when God does something in their lives, forget it, or view it as luck or chance of some kind, and straight way forget it was the hand f God doing it. Blessed are those who do not forget, it will supply fuel later.
MOST HAVE “SUPPOSITIONS” BROUGHT ON BY THINGS THEY HAVE HEARD or heard FROM OTHERS, BUT FEW HAVE FAITH BROUGHT ON BY personal “EVIDENCE” given to them by GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF.
Guess who will have enough fuel to keep their lamps burning when the bride returns. Will it be those whose faith is based on SUPPOSITIONS, OR those whose FAITH is based on real EVIDENCE?
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Page 6 on October 22, 2018 at 8:48 am
I had previously posted:
Did: Water baptism show our faith in the sacrifice of Christ. When we are water baptized, if possible, we receive the baptism of the holy spirit. The saints that died in the OT received the baptism of the holy spirit and not water baptism at Pentecost.
Should be: Water baptism show our faith in the sacrifice of Christ. When we are water baptized, if possible, we receive the baptism of the holy spirit. The saints that died in the OT were born of the holy spirit and not baptized of the holy spirit at that time but was somewhere between the ascension of Christ and Pentecost. No water baptism was or will be involved.
Hi Gene,
Me: You are getting away from the main point, the purpose of Pentecost which I have shown to you and will again here:
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Me: This is the main purpose of Pentecost. I did not present any suppositions but scripture itself. The men there at Pentecost has faith already that they would be baptized of the holy spirit. This is the faith that was needed. The apostles must have informed them of what was to take place. They didn’t need to receive faith by being there, God called them there.
God gives the desire to seek him. One reason men were there was to receive the baptism of the holy spirit. Others were draw there to receive it, having no faith at first. Others were there to mock the events.
Psalm 19:1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.Me: There are other ways that God instills faith in us. The example you had given is mostly about persistence.
You: Guess who will have enough fuel to keep their lamps burning when the bride returns. Will it be those whose faith is based on SUPPOSITIONS, OR those whose FAITH is based on real EVIDENCE?
Me: You are proud, arrogant and cocky.
HI TC,
The promise was to anoint them with the Holy Spirit so they could be apostles, so they could speak in tongues, so they could prophecy. The promise they received was NOT the great promise that God gave to all of mankind before He created the world, which was the promise of eternal life.
Genesis 9: 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Leviticus 17: 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul… 14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
Mortals have life through blood, Jesus rose having life through living water being in him,he is of flesh and bones, no longer blood of life but life of the water of the fountain of life.
Genesis 9: 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Leviticus 17: 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul… 14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
Deuteronomy 12: 23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
John 4: 4 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall BE IN him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 8:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Luke 24: 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
YOU:You have no scripture to support your insane exigencies.
ME:BIBLICAL FACTS
FACT: Scripture says that mortals have LIFE through THEIR BLOOD (this makes sense since blood delivers oxygen and nutrients to keep our cells, our brain and our body alive, and many die when they lose too much blood, or when their blood has infirmities such as toxins in it)
FACT: You cannot enter God’s kingdom having flesh and blood
FACT: Jesus rose from the dead being given glory, being made incorruptible, and he rose with a flesh and bones body.
FACT: You must be BORN of WATER and of the Spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God. (born of water does NOT equate to a RITUAL being immersed in water after you have reached a repentant heart)
FACT: Jesus said that THE WATER he will GIVE THEM will be IN THEM and spring up to eternal life. People will be BORN of water and of the Spirit, prior in their FIRST birth they were BORN of BLOOD.
Hi TC,
You need to look at more verses in chapter 5, as it does not fit at all with what you say. The hour was not at Pentecost, the hour is at the sound of the trumpet spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The HOUR is coming when those that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of judgement. These are NOT the same hour we know, but the hour will come to EACH of these.
The HOUR of receiving eternal life did not occur at Pentecost. At Pentecost men that were alive received gifts to become apostles, to speak in tongues, to give prophecy..etc. The DEAD did not rise up at Pentecost and hear the words of Christ and receive eternal life. ALL that are in the grave whether being good or bad will eventually hear his voice. THAT HOUR is COMING.
Daniel 2:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
CHRIST the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep, many will WAKE from the dust of the earth and receive eternal life.
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
John 4: 4 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall BE IN him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 8:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
TC being born of water and of the Spirit, does NOT equate to being dipped in water after repenting, it equates to WHEN you enter God’s kingdom receiving ETERNAL LIFE which does not occur until the last trumpet.
TC Paul wished to not baptize anyone, as he said that is not why he became an apostle, he became an apostle to speak the words of God and declare the Gospel. If people believed in that Gospel and had faith in it they were counted as righteous and worthy to obtain eternal life. As the dead rise, IN THEM will come a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them that believe.
God knows your heart, you do not need to perform a ritual of dipping yourself in water to prove to God that you believe in the Gospel. It is written in your heart. It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to SAVE them that believe.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
You do not undergo a ritual of dipping yourself in water in order to be SAVED, with the heart and God knowing your heart you are. Not everyone who is saved receives a baptism of the Spirit and fire speaking tongues. Not everyone baptized with Christ’s baptism gives prophecy. Such gifts are according to the will of God.
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
TC Read these chapters that LEAD up to 1 Corinthians 15. People were baptized and given gifts and as chapter 13 tells us these gifts may cease, having charity is the greatest. We have faith, hope and charity. We are SAVED through our belief that is in our hearts and the greatest of our heart that shows we are of God is charity. This all leads up to Paul speaking of Christ in fact being raised from the dead and becoming the firstfruits of them that have died. Paul tells us that the dead shall be changed at the last trumpet they will receive eternal life. This is when they are BORN of the water and of the Spirit.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
NOT a baptism of WATER!
Acts 2;1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
They were NOT BORN of water or born of the Spirit, they were baptized with fire and filled with the Spirit so they could speak in tongues. This was fulfilling the sign of Joel, where before Christ’s return people would be filled with God’s Spirit able to give prophesy.
Acts 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
NOT whoever undergoes a WATER baptism, whoever shall CALL on the name of the LORD shall be saved, whoever hears the Gospel and believes shall be saved, he will RISE from the DEAD and be BORN of the water and of the Spirit receiving eternal life.
Jesus’s baptism is NOT of water TC that was John’s baptism, the baptism of Jesus that came at Pentecost was with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE to people who were alive. Paul talks about this baptism in 1 Corinthians, and how gifts would CEASE that which they were baptized with would cease. No scripture speaks of them receiving some heart mind of Christ. They received gifts that could and did cease. Paul then tells us of the fate of those who believe in his Gospel, which is for the DEAD to rise receive eternal life when the trumpet sounds at the last day.
Hi Jodi:
You: The promise was to anoint them with the Holy Spirit so they could be apostles, so they could speak in tongues, so they could prophecy. The promise they received was NOT the great promise that God gave to all of mankind before He created the world, which was the promise of eternal life.
Me: Not true.
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Me: They were waiting for the promise to be baptized with the holy spirit. As of consequent of this, they would receive power to understand the deep things of God.
Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Me: The apostles had not received of the spirit until John 20:22. Yet they understood more than the prophets who did have the holy spirit in them. Why is that? It is because the Word of God was teaching them through the human mind and heart of Christ in the holy spirit. Now the human element in the holy spirit communicated with the human minds of the apostles. This is powerful.
New American Standard Bible
Matt 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Me. The spirit of truth comes from our heavenly father who is spirit. Christ inherits all things from his father, including truth. Our heavenly father then glorifies the Messiah by taking from him understanding and truth and shows it to us. This profound understanding happens from Pentecost forward.
New American Standard Bible
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/12794/was-the-text-of-matthew-2819-changed
Me: The main objective of receiving the holy spirit with power is to convert people to receive the baptism of the holy spirit after they had repented.
1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?Me: All of us have our unique gifts from the holy spirit. The promise of the holy spirit was the baptism of the holy spirit. The gifts of the holy spirit was a consequence of that baptism.
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh (Jews and gentiles): and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Me: Emphasis in the parenthesis is mine The baptism of the spirit from Pentecost onward is for all flesh.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Me: The rest of the scriptures that you quoted about blood is true, but we are talking about the baptism of the holy spirit.
TC,
John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest.
We shall be like Jesus, we will be born of God and unable to commit sin.
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
In eternal life there exists no more bondage, no more fear, we are free from temptation, we are BORN of God no longer able to sin. There is nothing that draws us away to serving God’s will, no weak flesh, no carnal mind to fight against.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul was considered a Son of God because he was going to be raised from the dead given a body free of death. He will be born of God of water and of the Spirit when he rises from the dead, he will no longer SERVE his flesh, be a slave to it, be under the dominion of the law of sin.
He will no longer have a body born of BLOOD, Paul DIED with a body born of blood. He will rise being BORN again of water and of the Spirit.
John 4: 4 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall BE IN him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Hi Jodi,
Why would we have a body reserved in heaven already before we die if our present one’s will be transformed? Please answer.
You need desperately to reconcile Romans 6:4, Gal 5:24, 2 Cor 12:1 2 Cor 5:4, 6-9, John 5:25, John 11:23 with 1 Thes 4:13-16, which you have not done. On the surface they seem to contradict.
Let’s see how you do.
Hi Jodi,
I will get back to you later on your last post. I usually reserve the weekends to post. I will try to get back sooner than later
Hi TC,
Okay, I will know why a response might come later than sooner, understandable, thank you.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
ME: As already shown through the rest of John 5, the HOUR represents both those who have done good and those evil, of which that hour is different for each and for those in Christ it is not at Pentecost but as Daniel and Paul tell us that the hour for those in Christ occurs at Christ’s second coming. The dead rise hearing the trumpet and receive life again, eternal life.
You: The thief on the cross received the baptism of the holy spirit at Pentecost and not water baptism.
ME: There is no account of the dead receiving anything at Pentecost. We do have direct scriptural accounts of the dead rising up and receiving eternal life when Christ returns. I am going to stick with that!
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today (at this time) shalt thou be with me in paradise.
You: The thief on the cross called out to Christ to save him, just like we do when we are baptized in water. He was not baptized with water. The OT saints were not baptized with water as symbolic of the actual baptism of the spirit. Why? Because Christ has not yet died.
ME: Punctuation is added in by the translator, moving a comma makes the passage entirely different, not only that but it establishes what other passages say.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This makes a lot more sense, how is it that he would be in paradise with Jesus on the day he was crucified? Pentecost certainly did not come on the day Jesus was crucified? What you are saying doesn’t even line up with itself, let alone scripture.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Genesis 3: 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
People who overcome have the right to the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God, they enter into paradise when they rise from the dead and receive eternal life.
Hi Jodi
You:
As already shown through the rest of John 5, the HOUR represents both those who have done good and those evil, of which that hour is different for each and for those in Christ it is not at Pentecost but as Daniel and Paul tell us that the hour for those in Christ occurs at Christ’s second coming. The dead rise hearing the trumpet and receive life again, eternal life.Me: John 5:25 and John 5:28 describes two different events.
Event 1:
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Me: Click on the link below: Then click on 5610 above “an hour”
https://biblehub.com/greek/5610.htm
hóra: a time or period, an hour
Original Word: ὥρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hóra
Phonetic Spelling: (ho’-rah)
Definition: a time or period, an hour
Usage: (a) a definite space of time, a season, (b) an hour, (c) the particular time for anythingMe: 5610. hóra can mean a period of time. As we will see “today’ in Luke 23:43 can also mean a period of time and does here.
An Hour means a short period of time and now means at the time of Christ’s glorification. So that hour is when the righteous dead from Genesis to Pentecost will awaken. These are only those that hear his voice at that time. These are those that receive the promise.
Event 2
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Me: This pertains to the resurrection of the dead after the millennium. The dead in Christ never die.
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Me: “shall never die” pertains to those faithful alive from Pentecost.
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/thief-on-cross
From the author,
Is the Comma Inspired?
Is the punctuation in the Bible inspired? In the original Greek text of the New Testament there was no punctuation, in fact, there was no spacing between words. Here is a quote from the Greek language expert Michael W. Palmer. “The ancient Greeks did not have any equivalent to our modern device of punctuation. Sentence punctuation was invented several centuries after the time of Christ. The oldest copies of both the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament are written with no punctuation.Me: So it is to the discretion of the scribe of the bible if and where he would put the comma.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/today
today adverb, nounDefinition of Day:
A1 (on) the present day:
What’s the date today?
He’s going to call you at some point today.
Today is even hotter than yesterday!
Is that today’s paper?
He should be back today a week today (= one week from today).B2 used more generally to mean the present time:
Today, people are much more concerned about their health than they were in the past.
With today’s technology almost anything seems possible.
The youth of today don’t know how lucky they are.Click on the link below in regards to Luke 23:43. Then click on blue 4592 to the right of “ to you, today”.
Usage: today, now.
Me: This reinforces the dictionary definitions just presented. Day can mean “now” which means the present time and not a literal 24 hour day.
You quoted me with the parenthesis (at this time) in front of today: How can you then say I meant today. What planet are you from.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today (at this time) shalt thou be with me in paradise.
So in other words I take the translation as:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, “at this time” shalt thou be with me in paradise.
It makes more sense than to say:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Me: This doesn’t make sense at all.. Of course he was talking to the thief that very day. He didn’t need to say it. But maybe the thief was stupid and didn’t realize that Christ was talking to him that day. Maybe he thought that Christ was actually talking to him at another day. Maybe they had drugged him prior, like they do on death row. Or maybe Christ had said something contrary at another day in the past. I’m just thinking of the possibilities of the absurdities of placing the comma after “today”.
You:
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
As already shown through the rest of John 5, the HOUR represents both those who have done good and those evil, of which that hour is different for each and for those in Christ it is not at Pentecost but as Daniel and Paul tell us that the hour for those in Christ occurs at Christ’s second coming. The dead rise hearing the trumpet and receive life again, eternal life.Me: “Now is” is not 2,000 years later. Only those that hear at this time will be resurrected into life. These are all those saints that had died prior to Pentecost.
Now look again at John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Me: How can “the hour is coming” be the same as now is? It is because Christ was talking about the near future. Christ was also talking about the near future in Luke 23:42.
This near future was after he had resurrected from the dead and had ascended into heaven. Even with the comma before “today”, the Messiah wasn’t talking about that very day—how stupid.2 Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Me: 2 Cor 6:2 reinforces my argument that time is an alternative definition for day.
Hi Jodi,
When will Job rise from the dead?
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Me: What “wrath” in verse 14 will and will not transpire before job is resurrected from the grave?
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Me: Christ comes with his saints to administer wrath upon the nations after he returns with his saints already resurrected both in spirit and with new bodies. So what can wrath mean in Job 14:13? Let us look.
Click on the link below. Then click on 639 above “your wrath”
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
angry, before, countenance, face, forbearing, forehead, longsuffering, nose,https://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/14-13.htm
Me: So instead of wrath used in Job 14:3, I propose that Job is addressing the death and resurrection of Christ from the dead. So Job hears Christ’s voice in John 5:25 and raises spiritually from the dead. All the OT saints do likewise.
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