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AndrewAD,
Is it the rope or the person that throws me the rope that saves me?
If I grab hold of the rope but do not climb it to get out of the will am I saved if that is the only way out of the well?
If the person hauls me up while I persist in holding firm to the rope is the works done equivalent to me climbing the rope?
Actually kevin i agree with what you wrote, maybe i didnt illustrate my point well enough. Baptism is an act of obdience out of thankfulness for gods grace but it is in no way required for salvation. For example many people in the middle east that are martyred never got a chance to be ‘baptised’ but you can see in their last moments their eyes filled with hope and strength that only God can give. So again baptism is not required it is simply an act of obedience but will not harm your walk unless you feel personal conviction about it.
The downfall of living in a blessed country is we have way to much time on our hands to obtain biblical ‘knowledge’ whereas when you compare our mentality to those in less fortunate countries their faith is so pure and awe inspiring because Christ resides in us through faith not by works. Works is merely a byproduct of a regenerated heart. Good works done while in the flesh are nothing but filthy rags in Gods sight. He is more interested in us serving him and strengthening the spirit while putting to death the flesh.
Dwillss,
Baptism is requited to enter the new covenant but salvation is a different issue. God judges each of us based on mitigating and aggravating circumstances. It is not for me to judge whether a man is damned or saved as that Judgement is God’s. I am confident he is loving and his judgement is based on both Justice and Mercy.
It is clear that immersion in water is required for entering the new covenant since Scriptural evidence shows it was taught by both Peter and Philip. Peter’s words link water to baptism in Jesus’ name and a number of occasions of that occur in Scripture. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness and hear and understand the gospel will become immersed in water in the name of Jesus as soon as they allowed. Should the devil take their life first then God will know what they would do if they were allowed the opportunity. This extends to those that have never heard the gospel.
For those who walk according to the spirit “works [are] merely a product of a regenerated heart” as they are the fruit of God’s effort and not a human’s.
yes baptism is required but not the one in water ;
Lk 12:50 There is a terrible baptism ahead of me, and I am under a heavy burden until it is accomplished.(baptism does not always mean water according to Jesus words but an action)
Ro 6:4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.what Paul says is a new live by putting the flesh to dead just as Jesus did on the stake ,
Gal 3:27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism(his dead in the flesh) have been made like him.(a spiritual person that walks like him in truth)
Eph 4:5 There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism,yes one time only can we take on this action to kill our flesh like Jesus did (but water would not do this )
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
it is for those reasons that all the apostles have driven all disciples to live a life like Jesus did and to pursue holiness and righteousness,to be acceptable to God as a good tree with good fruits
Terrarica,
Your argument is flawed since both Philip and Peter chose to immerse student-adherents in water. The student-adherents were a Jew and a Gentile respectively. In the case of the Gentile the immersion in water was also called baptism is Jesus’ name. One Scripture cannot be used to disprove the meaning of another.
The words “There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism” are true even though there are more than one Lord and these words only refer to Jesus as Lord even though God is also called Lord. Jehovah’s title of God is used to refer to him leaving Jesus to be refereed to by the title of Lord in Ephesians 4:5. Hebrews 6:2 teaches us there is a “the doctrine of baptisms” and thus we know there is only so either only one of those baptisms is relevant to the the message of Ephesians 4 or they are all called one baptism. I favor the earlier but either works as message remains the same.
The bottom line is that you doctrine forbids the house of Cornelius water to be baptized by telling Peter it is not necessary.
You would be wise to test you teaching and your life even as Paul urged Timothy to do.
K
you talk like a vicar but you never answer my question ,nor address the scriptures that I quote ,so your opinions do not do the cut ,I always have said that if you feel that you need to be baptized in water do it ,but i do not blame anyone that does not do it ,like you do ,for you are religion org. oriented I am not ,
I believe that killing of the flesh must take place in our own life time if we want to be saved and rewarded with eternal life according to Jesus and his apostles ,and water dip will only get you wet,3 seconds dip never saved anyone ,but has deceived many since the beginning (see 1 Corinthians )
Terrarica,
The dip in water has never been about getting wet. Even John’s immersion in water was for the forgiveness of sins. Peter added the words “”in the name of Jesus Christ” and a”and shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” which teaches us the Jesus immersion in water was greater than John’s. John had already told us that it was.
Those who want to be freed from bondage to their flesh must put it to death in baptism. This is done by being born of Spirit but not the Spirit that reveals the gift like was done with King Saul and the Seventy elders under the Law but the Spirit that reveals the righteousness that comes from God that is a new thing under the covenant of Christ.
Terrarica,
Consider that being submerged is like unto being buried in a tomb. One of our definitions for the word buried is to “immerse” oneself and another is “to cover in order to conceal from sight”. Being buried with Christ perfectly symbolizes being immersed in water as does the reverse. With his words in Romans 6 Paul created a likeness of what it means to be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ.
Terrarica,
I have not addressed 1 John 5:6 because it is uses metaphysical wording and I have not looked into it.
K
it seems that you have looked into in it ,for you claim it to be Metaphysical, so you haven actual not read the all scriptures and study it ,in the spirit of truth ,but have opinions of what really you don’t understand or don’t want to understand in the truth of the scriptures you rather follow men doctrines ,
declare faulty what does not fit your testing (meaning what you accept out of scriptures that you understand with main stream religion ,you still can figure out why a man like Jesus shows up in a nation that received the truth regarding himself and yet stand alone with the entire nation religion leaders against him and yet talked the truth of God not of tradition nor man made doctrines ,
you have been deceived and you looking to confirm your deception by defending it ;but nothing can stand against the truth of God ,for their is no other truth ,only lies
take care
What really bugs me about these posts is those people in the middle east, men, woman, and children who were newly born again yet tortured, raped, and beheaded for not proclaiming allah as god. Some of those people didn’t get a ‘water’ baptism yet they were able to endure through the holy spirit the brutal death and not once take their eyes of God. God is beyond our understanding and no one will ever have all the answers but as long as we stay strong in spirit to the gospel and endure, we will inherit the Glorious Kingdom.
hi dwillss
what some so called christians go through is not only them for they are not the only ones picked but many other group are treated the same way,
this is what a man’s world does to his own kind when folly becomes his pad of life ,but what I am sure of is that God take care of his own people does not matter where they are on earth ,
and my prayers go with those that rely on God almighty with all their heart and soul ,for he will be the avenger of their soul
I agree dwilliss.
We can receive the spirit without water baptism, but for me, if that happened, then we would receive water baptism because we were instructed to do so.
But for those who never get the chance, it doesn’t mean that they do not have salvation. The thief on the cross wasn’t water baptised and many more. While he died under the Old Covenant (I think), Jesus promised him he would be with him in Paradise and there was no baptism for that man.
So let’s look at this subject in perspective.
Acts 8
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.Acts 19:3-7
So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[a] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Being baptised in the spirit connects us with God. Water baptism gives us that opportunity, but God can impart his spirit without it. However, it is an instruction and even if they have the spirit, they should obey the command if they have the opportunity. If they never had the opportunity, then we cannot say that they are not saved. Water baptism as the only means to salvation is not scriptural. People were not water baptised in Jesus name in Old Testament times for example and God changed not.
dwills,
The people of the Middle East you speak of are dead. We can no longer do anything for them. They are now in God’s righteous and loving hands to judge according to their hearts. If they sacrificed themselves but had no love then God knows and if they sacrificed themselves out of love then God also knows and will judge accordingly. Let the dead bury the dead and by concerned for the living. Seek to trust God in all things.
t8,
The only baptism literally mentioned in Acts 8 and 19 is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and Peter asked who would deny water to those that were to baptized in the name of Christ.
Terrarica,
It is easy to see if your eyes are open the 1 John 5:6 is metaphysical for it uses symbols to impart the things of God. I think water and blood represent birth and death for Jesus was born from his mother womb when her water broke and he died when he shed his blood on the cross. As I said I have not looked into it.
Kerwin, you are taking what I said out of context. My basis for sharing about our brothers and sisters overseas was regarding baptism. Also how could you possibly think that someone humbly refusing to declare allah as God while watching their family and children be raped, tortured and beheaded believe in a false Jesus Christ. They all declared Christ as Lord and Saviour until their last breath with heavenly confidence and faith. There are still many brothers and sisters being killed over there, do not be mistaken nor distracted nor desensitized.
Completely agree, It is by faith alone through grace by the sheer mercy of God through the cross that we are saved. Baptism is only an act of obedience (an important one at that, mostly for the opportunity to declare God as your saviour to the people through a testimony for his Glory. So if you are able to then yes baptisms is important but by no means a matter of salvation. A true saved heart will desire to be baptized by water after being baptized by the spirit.
dwillss,
If Paul is telling the truth in Romans 6 the old man is buried with Christ in baptism in water and the new man rises up in Christ.
If salvation depended on having the Spirit then no one would be saved that perished outside the new covenant. That includes Moses, Abraham, David. and many more.
Those that will be saved will take the opportunity to be immersed in the name of Jesus because by it the Spirit is given to humanity.
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