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Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 14 2011,22:31) To all, Marty wrote:
Quote Water baptism is symbolic of one's union with Jesus in his death. burial and resurrection. In this, a believer is publicly showing that he has believed the gospel, and he has repented. He has died to sin, his sins have been washed away(not by the water, this only symbolic, but by the blood) and is raised from the dead to walk in the newness of life.
I disagree as it is at baptism Jesus sets you really free from servitude to sin by giving you the Holy Spirit in its roll of councilor of righteousness and so feels you with the righteousness a believers sole yearns for.
Ephesians 4:24(NIV,2011)
Quote and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
That is when the new self is created like God in true holiness and righteousness, Ephesians 4:24. Creation is a miracle.
Kerwinyou got it wrong my friend;
1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
1Co 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
see TO THOSE”
and see what is going on there;1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1Co 1:11 My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
1Co 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas’”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
1Co 1:16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.Jas 1:6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
Jas 1:7 That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
Jas 1:8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.Jas 1:19 My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
Jas 1:20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.
Jas 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.there is a difference between Jews who know God and the gentiles who are learning from scrach.
so the holy spirit was not distributed as they were baptized.
just like the apostles recieved the holy spirit 3.5 years after they start to be teach by Christ.
the baptism is not a distribution centre for the holy spirit ,
the holy spirit was given as a complement to your true faith in the word of God.
Jas 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
so Kerwin you think that just one act in water will do to be saved?? and the deeds until you are dead or Christ return.??
Jas;2;26
Pierre
Hi Pierre:
You ask:
Quote what as faith to do with the ritual of water baptism? And then you ask:
our faith is in our hearts ,by our actions that we shine the light of Christ and put to dead our sinfull nature.
You say: “by our actions that we shine the ligh of Christ and put to death our sinful nature”.
That is true, and water baptism is an action by which you, as you say, let the light of Christ shine, and it shows that one has repented and is now a disciple of the Lord Jesus.
Quote Romans 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? are you sure that Paul talks about the living one or the faithful who died in Christ ?and so where baptized in Jesus dead ?
Paul is speaking about believers who have been baptized, and not the faithful who have died in Christ.
This is what the scritpure states:
Quote Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Quote Romans 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we also should walk in newness of life. Quote Romans 6:12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
No, water is not specifically stated in Romans 6, but water is mentioned in several other places, and it is implied here.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Jack:
Marty said:
Quote No, water baptism for a Born again Christian has nothing to do with an Old Testament ritual. Acts 19 (King James Version)
Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,All baptisms after Cornelius and his house were baptisms with the Holy Spirit. AFTER Peter baptized Cornelius and his house he said:
Quote 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Follow the UNFOLDING story my man!Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 15 2011,07:53) Hi Jack: Marty said:
Quote No, water baptism for a Born again Christian has nothing to do with an Old Testament ritual. Acts 19 (King James Version)
Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,All baptisms after Cornelius and his house were baptisms with the Holy Spirit. AFTER Peter baptized Cornelius and his house he said:
Quote 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Follow the UNFOLDING story my man!Jack
Hi Jack:Read the scriptures again Jack, Paul asked:
Quote 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, [We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And Paul asked:
Quote 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. And then the Apostle Paul baptized them again in the name of the Lord Jesus. This is water baptism because they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and until after the Apostle Paul laid hands on them.
Quote 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2011,08:25) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 15 2011,07:53) Hi Jack: Marty said:
Quote No, water baptism for a Born again Christian has nothing to do with an Old Testament ritual. Acts 19 (King James Version)
Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,All baptisms after Cornelius and his house were baptisms with the Holy Spirit. AFTER Peter baptized Cornelius and his house he said:
Quote 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Follow the UNFOLDING story my man!Jack
Hi Jack:Read the scriptures again Jack, Paul asked:
Quote 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, [We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And Paul asked:
Quote 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. And then the Apostle Paul baptized them again in the name of the Lord Jesus. This is water baptism because they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and until after the Apostle Paul laid hands on them.
Quote 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Acts 19 says NOTHING about water in reference to their baptisms. They had already been baptized with John's baptism which was the baptism Peter performed BEFORE his vision that God had cleansed all men..
Quote 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Paul baptized them with the Holy Spirit.ALL BAPTISMS AFTER CORNELIUS WERE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Are you going to get around to explaining why the bathing ritual was necessary after God had cleansed all men?
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 15 2011,08:43) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2011,08:25) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 15 2011,07:53) Hi Jack: Marty said:
Quote No, water baptism for a Born again Christian has nothing to do with an Old Testament ritual. Acts 19 (King James Version)
Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,All baptisms after Cornelius and his house were baptisms with the Holy Spirit. AFTER Peter baptized Cornelius and his house he said:
Quote 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Follow the UNFOLDING story my man!Jack
Hi Jack:Read the scriptures again Jack, Paul asked:
Quote 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, [We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And Paul asked:
Quote 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. And then the Apostle Paul baptized them again in the name of the Lord Jesus. This is water baptism because they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and until after the Apostle Paul laid hands on them.
Quote 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Acts 19 says NOTHING about water in reference to their baptisms. They had already been baptized with John's baptism which was the baptism Peter performed BEFORE his vision that God had cleansed all men..
Quote 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Paul baptized them with the Holy Spirit.ALL BAPTISMS AFTER CORNELIUS WERE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Are you going to get around to explaining why the bathing ritual was necessary after God had cleansed all men?
Jack
No, Jack:You are mistaken, water baptism is a very important symbol. It is not a bathing ritual. I have already explained all of this, and no, the Apostle Paul did not baptize anyone with the Holy Spirit. He baptized them in the name of the Lord, and then when he laid hands on them they received the Holy Ghost.
It is Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Ghost. No one else has that privilege. The Apostle may lay hands on them and pray that they might receive the Holy Ghost, but only Jesus can baptize someone with Holy Ghost.
Hi Jack:
And since it is true that only Jesus can baptize with the Holy Spirit, I have already showed you that the Apostle Paul baptized as stated in the following scripture and although it does not specifically say that he baptized them in water that is what is implied.
Quote 1 Co 1:12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
And the Eunuch who was baptized by Phillip was baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus. This was not the same baptism that John the Baptist performed. This baptism was after the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord.
Quote Acts 8:29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still:and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
And Hebrews 6 states the following:
Quote Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit.
The author of the epistle of Hebrews is talking about leaving the elementary principles of the doctrines of Christ, and going on to perfection or maturity by going deeper in to the study of the Word of God. In these scriptures, he not only mentions baptism, but also, laying on of hands, of the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment as elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ.
The author precedes these verses of scripture with the following which helps us understand what is being said in Hebrews 6:
Quote Hebrews 5:8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi everyone. New here and here to learn. Does this have revelance to this threads conversation?
John 3:5-8 (King James Version)
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I ask because this story of Jesus isn't in Matthew, Mark or Luke to the best of my understanding it is only in John.
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 15 2011,15:06) Hi everyone. New here and here to learn. Does this have revelance to this threads conversation? John 3:5-8 (King James Version)
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I ask because this story of Jesus isn't in Matthew, Mark or Luke to the best of my understanding it is only in John.
Hi Wispring,Consider how Eve was taken out of Adams side.
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced
his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.1Cor.8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,
and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.Does this help you to draw a correlation between the two?
1Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Corinth.15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made
a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed,
This thread is about:
Matthew 28:19 (King James Version)
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
and I asked if:
John 3:5 (King James Version)
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
had any relavence.
This my humble attempt at harmonizing the two.
Jesus was aware as most people were aware of John's babtism to repentence in which he used water so Jesus was using that as a reference for first being repentent and then receiving the Spirit were like
pre-requisites to even be qualified to be able to enter the Kingdom of God.
This just my humble interpretation of scripture and God knows I am no expert.Hi Wispring, welcome.
To all,
Jesus was baptised and he recieved the holy spirit at baptism.
So…..whats the problem here and what exactly is being discussed?
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.And the question…”is this about baptism in water?”
I agree with the above post,
John 3:5
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Don't the two go together?
Well, it appears some are debating whether Matthew 28:19 is about water baptism or not and of course using scripture to back up the argument and then trying to say that water baptism is no longer required or not. I don't know. I do know that John's water babtism was a ritual of repentence. I do know what Jesus said in John 3:5. Whether Jesus meant the water part as a metaphor or as a reference to John's baptism or as something physical I am not certain. The second part is clearly not a metaphor so therefore should the first part also clearly not be a metaphor? I am not learned enough in scripture to know for certain
Hi Wispring,
Have you considered that being born of water might mean,
physical human birth, when a woman's “water breaks”?
Precluding Angels from entering without human birth.
And also humans without a second “Spiritual” birth.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed,
Now there is an interesting notion. Lets look at some more of the scripture/text to to gain some insight from context maybe.John 3:3-8 (King James Version)
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
OK. So maybe it's like this…First Jesus says “Except a man be born again(born from above) etc.”
Then Nicodemus talks about not being able to be physically born twice.
So Jesus expands what he is saying to incude Nicodemus's answere and to gently reprimand Nicodemus
for making a remark that both know is biologically impossible. Like maybe the words used by Jesus in the native language they were using both knew depending on context could mean born again(physical impossibility) or born from above and Jesus was kind of say 'get real' to Nicodemus.Regarding the angels i don't know. My understanding is that they are spiritual beings already in the Kingdom of God. At least the ones that weren't cast out according to the Enochian story.
Hi Wispring,
So you consider then, he could mean that water meant physical birth; right?
Baptism is a symbol of 'death', so baptism could not then be the water of John 3:5 then; right?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed,
I have reconsidered and have decided that born of water doesn't refer to physical birth. Firstly because it's silly. If i took it took to be accurate it would be like you asking me directions to the post office and me saying first you have to be physically born for me to tell you. I am sure Jesus could be sarcastic, but, in this particular instance i don't think he is. Secondly there is alot of 'water talk' in John like John 7:38 where Jesus says he is the living water. Water is a source of cleansing and life naturally and used as a spiritual metaphor it describes to a degree what the activity is of the Holy Spirit that Jesus himself baptizes with. Thirdly the breaking of water is a bloody affair not a waterly affair. Jesus is talking to a teacher of the Judaic Law. There is alot of cleansing by water going on in the Judaic Law. So the cleansing and life-giving aspects of it would not be lost to him when Jesus said this to himHi Ed,
I understand that baptism can be said to symbolise the death of the old person and the birth of the new person in Jesus Christ. Is this what you are talking about? Sorry for the two posts. I realized I hadn't talked to you about the 'death' bit until after i posted.May God keep you and yours in his eternal love.
Pierre,
I see both “to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy” and “those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Since when you call on the name of Jesus you also call on the name of God sin God made him King of everything it follows those who call on the name of Jesus will be saved as Acts 2:21.
Acts 2
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.Acts 2 is part of Peter’s message to the crowd of Jews and Jewish converts on Pentecost in which he instructs them to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Let’s look at another example of this where Anaias instructs Paul to be baptized in water to wash away his sins while calling on the name of God and the one he made King.
Acts 22
12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’Scripture attests there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Paul spoke against clicks being formed in the church based on who happened to baptize a particular individual instead of the members keeping a single minded devotion to serving God. Paul wants no part of such strife. The gospel message is about more than being immersed in water. Being immersed in water is just part of the many teachings of Jesus. Take my example of the Blind man that Jesus commanded to wash himself in the Pool of Siloam. The washing was only a part of the miracle and useless without his faith.
John 9
1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
6 After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7 “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.
In obeying Jesus’ command the Blind man showed his faith by his actions just as James states, James 2:26. God rewarded his action with a miracle.
One who has been immersed in water while believing in their heart that Jesus is Lord is only being saved.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed according to God’s plan and he chose to grant talents such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, etc. in order as a sign of those approved of him just as scripture attests.
Acts 4
29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.and
Mark 16
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
The Holy Spirit as councilor is another matter as its purpose is to instruct believers in righteousness. It is spoken of in Scripture with these words.
Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
God has distributed the gifts even of old as is attested by what happened to King Saul during the time previous to him becoming king.
1 Samuel 10
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.
The Holy Spirit as councilor is a new thing that could only be given after Jesus sacrificed himself, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven. This he told his disciples before he was crucified.
It is only the transformation of Spirit and not the sign of the Spirit that occurs when one is immersed in water.
Acts 2
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Consider this scripture:
Matthew 21
23 Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?”
24 Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25 John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”
They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘Of human origin’—we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.
”
27 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.”Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
Note: All Scriptures are NIV.
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 15 2011,15:06) Hi everyone. New here and here to learn. Does this have revelance to this threads conversation? John 3:5-8 (King James Version)
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I ask because this story of Jesus isn't in Matthew, Mark or Luke to the best of my understanding it is only in John.
Hi Wellspring and welcome:My understanding of the question that you pose is that the water of which Jesus spoke when he said “except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” was “living water” which is the Word of God.
Quote John 4:9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Quote John 4:13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
We are saved by Faith, and the scripture states that “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God”, and so, when we believe the gospel, we are born of living water, and when we receive the Holy Ghost, we are born of the Spirit.
Quote 1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Water baptism is a work or an action showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented. Sometime a person will receive the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized in water and sometimes they receive the Holy Ghost after they have been bapized in water. This is an act of obedience to God's Word and symoblizes a believer's union with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Jack:
Prior to Cornelius and his group receiving the Holy Ghost, the gospel was preached primarily to the Jews, and the procedure had been when they believed the gospel, they were baptized in water, and then they received the Holy Ghost.
But Cornelius and his group received the Holy Ghost when they believed the gospel prior to being baptized in water. The Jews regarded the gentiles as unlean and probably would not have accepted them to be baptized in water, so God did this to show that God is no respector of persons, and that the gentiles who believed the gospel would also be saved. Cornelius was a man who was already doing good works in obedience to God, and this showed that he had repented, but without the blood of the sacrifice of our Lord no man can be saved, and so, God sent him to the Apostle Peter to hear the gospel.
The Apostle Peter the states:
Quote Acts 10:47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
The Word “forbid” in the Greek according to Stong's concordance is:koluo {ko-loo'-o} and means:
Definition:
1.to hinder, prevent forbid
2.to withhold a thing from anyone
3.to deny or refuse one a thingAnd one other interesting point that I learned from reviewing these scriptures is that the Apostle Peter states:
Quote Acts 10:37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, THAT THROUGH HIS NAME whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
And so, here we see that the commandment was to preach forgiveness and remission of sins in his name, and not in the Tri-une formula of Matthew 28:19.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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