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Quote (Jodi @ May 10 2008,10:02) 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, Yeshua is not God, he is a human mediator to the people for the One God.
Amen Jodi. I don't see what is so difficult for anyone to understand about this.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2008,14:16) Wj you said,. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us😉
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WJ……..yes Jesus spoke God's (WORDS) to us, but he Plainly said
that the (WORDS) i am speaking are (NOT) MY WORDS, so how do you reconcile that Jesus Himself was the word, when he plainly said the words weren't his. Can”t you see you are forcing the text to say whats not there.
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WJ……you qutoe,
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that
ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
(1 John 1:1-3)
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I have no problem with that quote.
where does it say that Jesus is God himself in that quote?.
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WJ you quote,
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)So who is the word spoken of in the above scriptures. Is Jesus the Word or not?
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WJ…> Jesus spoke the word's God gave him to speak to Us , He was the spokesmen, not the word it self, they were God's words and he obeyed them also Just like we are supposed to.Again if you took all the words of Jesus into concideration you would know that, Jesus isn't the word it, but a spokesman of them relaying GOD'S words to us.
“For God Spoke to us in times past through the Prophets, but in these latter days through a Son. WJ, who spoke (GOD DID) How through PROPHETS (AND) A SON> but all these spoke GOD”S words NOT there OWN> Whats so hard to understand about that?
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WJ…..you say
So are you saying John did not understand that Jesus was the Word in John 1:1?
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Wj…> NO, I am saying John know exactly what He was saying and He used the exact words to describe exactually what He meant, your the one adding to what he said by changing the word (WORD) for Jesus. Its you who doesent know what Jhon is saying not John, If John meant Jesus he simply would have said Jesus instead of the (WORD).-
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WJ you said>
If Jesus is the Word and John 1:1 says he was God, then it dosnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
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WJ….> (IF) Jesus is the word Himself (AND) John 1:1 says he was God, (THEN) it really wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, Right, (BUT) He didn't say that, your forcing the text to make it come out that way.
.
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So who is tweaking the scriptures and forcing the text to make them say what they want?
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WJ….> It's obvious YOU ARE.IMO………peace to you and yours………..gene
WJ……….. The problem with adding words to whats actually not written it causes confusion and that where all these false teaching come from, people simply force the texts to meant their view point.IMO………..gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2008,14:16)
And there you go denying certain scriptures again.That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us😉
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
(1 John 1:1-3)Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2008,07:01)
WJ……..yes Jesus spoke God's (WORDS) to us, but he Plainly said
that the (WORDS) i am speaking are (NOT) MY WORDS, so how do you reconcile that Jesus Himself was the word, when he plainly said the words weren't his. Can”t you see you are forcing the text to say whats not there.The “Word” is a title that John gave to describe Jesus before he came in the flesh and was born a man. The name the “Word of God” was given to Jesus in Revelations 19:13 (which you refuse to address), which many scholars believed was written about 20 years before John 1:1.
Jesus is not merely a saying of God, for he is the living substance and essence of all that the living Word is.
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Heb 1:3)
Why didn’t the writer of Hebrews say, “sustaining all things by “The Father’s” powerful word?
It’s simple GB, because you cannot separate the Father, Jesus and the Spirit. The Father does or says nothing without Jesus, and Jesus does and says nothing without the Father.
As far as forcing the text, how do you reconcile that John says, “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (1 John 1:1)•Can you “See with your eyes” a spoken word?
•Can you “look upon” a spoken word?
•Can your “Hands handle” a spoken word?The text here plainly shows that Jesus is the “Word of Life” that was with the Father in the beginning (John 1:1) and was manifested when the Word became flesh, (John 1:14)…
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us😉
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
(1 John 1:2, 3)So who is forcing the text? Your belief defies the many translations that reveal Jesus as the Word made flesh.
Tell me GB, if the Word in John 1:1 is merely a spoken word of the Father, then are you saying the Father is a spoken word? For John 1:1 clearly shows the “Word was God”!
So the Father is a result of his spoken word?
BTW. If Jesus words are simply the Fathers and are not also his own words, then why would the Father say this…
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Mathew 17:5)
Why didn’t the Father say “Hear my words through him”?
Because they are One. If you see Jesus you see God. If you hear Jesus you hear God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2008,14:16)
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
(1 John 1:3)Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2008,07:01)
I have no problem with that quote.
where does it say that Jesus is God himself in that quote?.But you do have a problem with this verse because it shows Jesus is the “Word of Life” in verses 1, 2 that was with the Father in the beginning confirming John 1:1 that Jesus is the “Word that was/is God”.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2008,14:16)
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)
So who is the word spoken of in the above scriptures. Is Jesus the Word or not?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2008,07:01)
WJ…> Jesus spoke the word's God gave him to speak to Us , He was the spokesmen, not the word it self, they were God's words and he obeyed them also Just like we are supposed to.Again if you took all the words of Jesus into concideration you would know that, Jesus isn't the word it, but a spokesman of them relaying GOD'S words to us.
“For God Spoke to us in times past through the Prophets, but in these latter days through a Son. WJ, who spoke (GOD DID) How through PROPHETS (AND) A SON> but all these spoke GOD”S words NOT there OWN> Whats so hard to understand about that?You are dancing! What’s so hard to understand that Jesus is given the name “The Word of God?. (Rev 19:13)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2008,14:16)
So are you saying John did not understand that Jesus was the Word in John 1:1?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2008,07:01)
Wj…> NO, I am saying John know exactly what He was saying and He used the exact words to describe exactually what He meant, your the one adding to what he said by changing the word (WORD) for Jesus. Its you who doesent know what Jhon is saying not John, If John meant Jesus he simply would have said Jesus instead of the (WORD).-
And if John would have meant a saying, thought or plan, he would have said so, and surely he wouldn’t have called a saying, thought or plan “God”.Lets see how that would work…
In the beginning was the (saying of God), and the (saying of God) was with God, and the (saying of God) was God! (John 1:3)
And the (saying of God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Who is it that is adding to the text? There are over 40 pronouns in John chapter 1 referring to Jesus. It is simply ludicrous to say that the Word in John 1:1 is none other than Jesus, especially in light of 1 John 1:1-3 and Revelation 19:13.
Your belief defies hundreds of scholars and commentators who interpret John 1:1c as being Jesus the “Word of life” that was with the Father.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2008,14:16)
If Jesus is the Word and John 1:1 says he was God, then it dosnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out.Who is it that John says came in the flesh. Hence the Word/God.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2008,07:01)
WJ….> (IF) Jesus is the word Himself (AND) John 1:1 says he was God, (THEN) it really wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, Right, (BUT) He didn't say that, your forcing the text to make it come out that way.John 1:1 doesn’t say a “saying was with God and was God” either does it? But it does say Jesus is the Word that was made flesh doesn’t it?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2008,14:16)
But let me guess, you have “The Truth”, so the scriptures that I take litterally, comparing scriptures with scripture, and letting them interpret themselves, you do not believe.So who is tweaking the scriptures and forcing the text to make them say what they want?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2008,07:01)
WJ….> It's obvious YOU ARE.IMO………peace to you and yours………..gene
WJ……….. The problem with adding words to whats actually not written it causes confusion and that where all these false teaching come from, people simply force the texts to meant their view point.
IMO………..gene
I see, but it is okay for you to make inference on John 1:1 and others with your own view that confuses others.
OK GB, answer this question.
How can God be a “thought, saying or plan” since a “thought, saying or plan” has to have a beginning?
The Word in John 1:1 is not just a “thought, saying or plan” as confirmed by John 1:14, 1 John 1:1-3 and Revelation 19:13.
It’s obvious that you defy all the rules of hermeneutics and Greek grammar in your interpretation of John 1:1.
Have you sincerely tried to read this link (HERE) to get a basic understanding of the Greek and proper methods of interpretation of John 1:1?
Blessings!
To all! You are all right. W.J. Jesus is God and so is Satan, He is the God of this world. God is a title. Or if you wish a Family name, I like that we are the Family of God. God in us. 1 Corinth. 15:28 The Son God has a name, as a Spirit He was the Word John 1:1 or the Spokes-word of God, as a Human He became Jesus and now sits at the right hand of the Father. The Fathers name is Jehovah God, He is above all and the Almighty God. Is that not easy to understand?
Ephesians 4:4Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (seek and you will find @ May 15 2008,18:26) To all! You are all right. W.J. Jesus is God and so is Satan, He is the God of this world. God is a title. Or if you wish a Family name, I like that we are the Family of God. God in us. 1 Corinth. 15:28 The Son God has a name, as a Spirit He was the Word John 1:1 or the Spokes-word of God, as a Human He became Jesus and now sits at the right hand of the Father. The Fathers name is Jehovah God, He is above all and the Almighty God. Is that not easy to understand?
Ephesians 4:4Peace and Love Mrs.
mrsI am sorry to see you put Jesus as God in the same light as satan, being that satan is a false god and not God at all.
1 John 1:2 says Jesus is the Eternal life that was with the Father.
And he confirms Jesus deity as being one with the Father here…
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. *This is the true God*, and eternal life (1 John 5:20)
W.J. I was just showing that God is a title, I would never put our Savior Jesus Christ in the same light then Satan. You misread me there. I agree with you except that I believe that the Father is greater then the Son. Jesus stated that Himself. The Scripture I like to use is
Ephesians 4:4
Thats all for tonight, or morning which ever you want to look at it.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (seek and you will find @ May 15 2008,19:53) W.J. I was just showing that God is a title, I would never put our Savior Jesus Christ in the same light then Satan. You misread me there. I agree with you except that I believe that the Father is greater then the Son. Jesus stated that Himself. The Scripture I like to use is
Ephesians 4:4
Thats all for tonight, or morning which ever you want to look at it.
Peace and Love Mrs.
mrsI agree with you that “God” is a title, just like Father is a title.
The term God, Theos, describes the nature of a being.
There is only two types of god's described in the scriptures.
False, so-called gods,who are not gods at all, and “One True God”.
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), (1 Cor 8:4, 5)Non Trinitarians have a delima. Jesus is called God. Either he is “false” or “True”, which is it?
Again…
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. *This is the true God*, and eternal life (1 John 5:20)
Jesus is One with the Father in everyway.
Your argument that the Father is greater than Jesus therefore Jesus can't be God is like saying that your Father is greater than you but you are less human.
Scriptures declare the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE God.
Blessings!
Hi all,
John 1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him, and without him nothing was made that was made.
If Jesus didn't exsist before, how were all things made by him. If he were not God, yes, he didn't exsist before. Oneness believers believe that Jesus is just a thought,plan, or saying also, but this is kind of hard to believe by reading John 1:1-3.
Good morning, GS,
I'd like to share something with you, although it is not popular theology amongst HeavenNet'ers.
My version of John 1:1, using my son, Nathan, and my husband, Dan, as examples:
In the beginning was Nathan, and Nathan was with Dan, and Nathan was Dan.
It is my contention that Jesus is the literal Son of God. A Son who was conceived and born to God (from God). So in using my son and Husband as fill-in's for Jesus and God, you can see how Jesus was in fact “with” God and “was” God. My son was with Dan as sperm and the potential son he carried with him. My son was Dan as he was not born yet and so therefore was not yet his own person.
It's one idea. I believe the LORD showed me this revelation one morning around 3 a.m. after I had been seeking him night and day for many, many days.
Love,
MandyWJ……> you implying the word (WORD) is is not (JUST) a thought , saying or plan. Show your lack of understanding of what the Word of God is, it is more powerful the a two edged sword, separating the bone from the morrow it says. So I doint think if we take John as using the word (word) for its actual meanning is down grading anything do you, and Cant you give John enough sense to know what He wrote was exactly what he meant, if He was implying Jesus, He would have simple said Jesus, and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.
John was just showing that in the beginning God spoke by His words things into being. That is a (power) God Has is to speak thing into existence. He did that in the beginning of this creation. So the word was with GOD and the word Was God. And the word came to be in Jesus< How, by the HOLY SPIRIT, that was given Him.
Just like God's Spirit does in all who have it. Jesus didn't say i am the Father did He. No, he said the Father was (IN) Him, How was He in Him, the same way He can be in us by the same Spirit that was in Jesus also. “if this mind be in you that was (also) in Jesus (IT) shall quicken your mortal bodies, and again, “let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus our Lord”. There is no difference between Jesus and Us, ” wherefore He is not ashamed to called them brethren”.
All who separate Jesus Christ from their likeness are Antichrists, or why do you think John said “whosoever confesses Jesus as not coming in Flesh is Antichrist. People who don't see Jesus as a simple Human being are Antichrist. What God the Father did in the man Jesus He can do for anybody. Or how could we ever come to the Full measure of Christ them.
I know you don't realize it but your, separation of Jesus' exact likeness to us, is an error on your part and all trinitarians who hold this view of Jesus are wrong also.
I would like to take ONE Subject , for us to talk about, Just one Word, and lets stay on subject if we can……The word is GOD. I would like to know what is your definition of that word.
Peace to you and yours…….gene
Not 3in 1,
Would be a good idea, except it goes on to say that all things were made by him, and without him nothing was made that was made.???
Still doesn't jive. Jesus said I am the alpha and the omega. If he was just an idea or a thought, he certainly isn't the alpha.:)
gsilva…….the alpha and omega of what, I contend it means the first and last of God creation of man into his Image, Jesus was the first, to achieve it, and the last will be just like Him. He is how it begins and ends with us all. The absolute example to us.
Most people think that refers to all things but it doesn't specifically say that does it?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 16 2008,05:01) gsilva…….the alpha and omega of what, I contend it means the first and last of God creation of man into his Image, Jesus was the first, to achieve it, and the last will be just like Him. He is how it begins and ends with us all. The absolute example to us. Most people think that refers to all things but it doesn't specifically say that does it?
Agree with ya, bro!GS – Jesus is the beginning of everything! It was through this plan of Jesus that everything had it's beginning.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 16 2008,05:01) gsilva…….the alpha and omega of what, I contend it means the first and last of God creation of man into his Image, Jesus was the first, to achieve it, and the last will be just like Him. He is how it begins and ends with us all. The absolute example to us. Most people think that refers to all things but it doesn't specifically say that does it?
Quote” Most people think that refers to all things but it doesn't specifically say that does it?”It does refer to all things. John 1:3″ All things were made by him and without him nothing was made that was made”
Rev 1:8 also refers to Jesus as the Almighty.
Jesus is not the Almighty. No where is he considered such. No language of the bible proves this.
Compare the KJV Rev. 1:8 with the NIV Rev. 1:8………….tell me what you see? There is a difference there.
My mother has an old KJV (probably from the 50's) and guess what? Rev. 1:8 is NOT IN RED PRINT! What do you think this means? Curious, isn't it? At any rate, I've done a study of this passage if you care to hear it. Otherwise I won't waste my time. If you read carefully and follow the players there, you will see that Rev. 1:8 refers to God, not Jesus.
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