- This topic has 45 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
For over a decade on HN, Gene has been spouting the same crap over and over, and then running away like a scared little girl whenever anyone corners him on his nonsense – only to pop into another thread a week later posting the SAME CRAP he refuses to stand and defend.
I’ve had enough of it.
The rules of this thread are simple:
1. I will ask a question, and Gene MUST answer that question DIRECTLY, HONESTLY, and REASONABLY before he makes a single post anywhere else on Heaven Net.
2. Gene can then ask a question of his own that I MUST answer before posting anywhere else on HN.
3. If Gene doesn’t ask a question of his own within one week, then I can ask another question that he MUST answer before posting anywhere else on HN.
4. If it is a “Yes or No” question, the answer MUST begin with a clear “Yes” or “No” – after which the responder can explain his answer any way he chooses. BUT IT MUST BEGIN WITH EITHER A YES OR A NO FIRST!
Here is my first question to Gene:
Psalm 82:6-7… I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But like mortals you will die, and like rulers you will fall.
John 10:34-36… Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world?
Gene, in the first verse above, Yahweh makes it clear that there are other gods. In the second verse, Jesus confirms that there are other gods.
is it possible for Yahweh to literally be the only god in existence if both he and Jesus acknowledge the existence of other gods? Yes or No?
Mike….. No, Jesus never acknowledge the existences of other God’s to him, or he would be a liar, by saying that there is “only” “one” “true” God. But can there be other God’s , Yes, and No……We must first establish what the word God “MEANS” . Let’s do that First , then proceed Ok?
So now my first question to you is this, What does the word God mean to you Mike?
Peace and love to you and yours Mike……..gene
Gene: So now my first question to you is this, What does the word God mean to you Mike?
Hi Gene, here is what the word god means to me…
#1 describes Yahweh. #2 describes the Holy Spirit. And 3# describes the many other gods in the Bible.
But let’s go back to my question…
Gene: No, Jesus never acknowledge the existences of other God’s to him, or he would be a liar, by saying that there is “only” “one” “true” God.
Maybe you’re just misunderstanding what Jesus meant when he said “only true God”. But before we do a deep dive into what Jesus said, I noticed that you didn’t even comment on whether or not YAHWEH called other beings gods. That was also part of my first question, Gene… and you didn’t answer that part. Please do so now…
Gene, did Yahweh call beings other than Himself gods in Ps 82? YES or NO?
Mike , yes, he did, why? Because the word God/god, is not a person, he or she or it, is a (concieved) being. You actually answered it right in the first part of your explination above of what a God is.
He, she or it, is (YOUR ) “CONCIEVED”, “image” of something, that, (YOU) make up as, “YOUR”, God, that dosen’t mean it it a “TRUE” God to anyone else, but is, (YOUR) CONCEPTION THAT IT IS (YOUR) God, and if you bow yourself and worship and serve it , it then it, “IS” (your) God. Why? because it fulfills the original Hebrew words of what a God (relationship) is .
The Word God is not a person, it is a description of your (relationship), with something, anything, many believe Jesus is their God, and they bow down, and worship him as their God, because they have turned the “image” of him in their minds, into a God. 2ths2. Creating a man of sin, in (their) minds, turning them into idolaters.
There are many Gods to different people in this world, but to us they are all false Gods but to them they they may be their real God, but not to us we only have one God, his name is Yahovah or yahweh. The one Jesus said was the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD”.
Scripture also says, ” but unto us (true believers) , there is but, “ONE” God and “one” mediator between God and men , the “MAN” Jesus Christ.” Just that simple, you either believe scriptures or not Mike. Trying to trip people up by saying there are (little gods and BIG GODS ) upper case and lower case lettering, changes nothing espically when all the original texts were written in upper case lattering.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike………..gene
Mike…….Seening you haven’t or can’t responded to the above question, my next question to you is, does changing the word God to a upper case or lower case lettering change anything about what the word God means? Yes or no please. And if it does, explain to us how?, and remember, all the original text was written in upper lettering.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike…………gene
Mike, where is your answers ?, now who is running away and hiding like a little gril? I never hid from any question i was ask here on HN, that i know of anyway. And by the way why should i not be saying the same thing over and over , does the truth change ?, No, the truth always stays the same no matter how long it exists. Why should you even want me to say something different, if what i say i believe is the truth.
The one who should be changing, by excepting the truth is you, trying to make everyone God/god’s, even against scripture and what Jesus himself said , now that’s, is pure garbage, just like you flat earth “crap” is, IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike………..gene
Gene: Mike…….Seening you haven’t or can’t responded to the above question…
Mike, where is your answers ?, now who is running away and hiding like a little gril?
Whoa… slow down their killer. 😂 Gene, in case you haven’t noticed, I usually only post on Saturdays and Sundays, because I’m normally working long hours during the week, and don’t have time when I get home.
That’s why I put a one week time limit on the questions/answers. (See Rule #3 in the opening post.)
Mike: Gene, did Yahweh call beings other than Himself gods in Ps 82? YES or NO?
Gene: Mike , yes, he did…
So if Yahweh Himself called other beings gods, then Yahweh Himself is acknowledging that these other beings ARE gods, right? And since that is clearly the case, when Yahweh claims to be the “only” god, He can’t possibly mean that LITERALLY. And therefore, the statement MUST BE an emphatical one, like when Yahweh says he is the “only” savior, but then sends a bunch of OTHER saviors to His people.
Follow just the facts, Gene…
1. Yahweh claims to be the ONLY savior.
2. Yahweh sends many OTHER saviors.
3. Conclusion: Yahweh’s claim to be the ONLY savior is an emphatical statement, meaning that He is the ULTIMATE savior, but not LITERALLY the ONLY one in existence.
Now, us that same logic (that you already agreed to in another thread) for “only god”…
1. Yahweh claims to be the ONLY god.
2. Yahweh Himself acknowledges the existence of OTHER gods.
3. Conclusion: Yahweh’s claim to be the ONLY god is an emphatical statement, meaning that He is the ULTIMATE god, but not LITERALLY the ONLY one in existence.
In my next post, I’ll address your explanation for why you think Yahweh called other beings gods, and I’ll answer your second question. But this is my next question for you…
Gene, Yahweh claimed to be the ONLY savior, and then went on to send OTHER saviors in the Bible, and so you understand Yahweh’s claim as meaning He is the ULTIMATE savior, but not LITERALLY the ONLY savior in existence.
Gene, is it even remotely POSSIBLE that when Yahweh claims to the the ONLY god, and then goes on to call many other beings gods in many other scriptures, that Yahweh’s claim means that He is the ULTIMATE god – and not LITERALLY the ONLY god in existence? YES or NO?
Gene: my next question to you is, does changing the word God to a upper case or lower case lettering change anything about what the word God means? Yes or no please.
NO.
Mike: Gene, did Yahweh call beings other than Himself gods in Ps 82? YES or NO?
Gene: Mike , yes, he did, why? Because the word God/god, is not a person, he or she or it, is a (concieved) being.
So then if Yahweh called other beings gods, as you’ve agreed, it means Yahweh “conceived of” these beings as gods. Otherwise He wouldn’t have said they were gods.
Gene: He, she or it, is (YOUR ) “CONCIEVED”, “image” of something, that, (YOU) make up as, “YOUR”, God, that dosen’t mean it it a “TRUE” God to anyone else, but is, (YOUR) CONCEPTION THAT IT IS (YOUR) God, and if you bow yourself and worship and serve it , it then it, “IS” (your) God. Why? because it fulfills the original Hebrew words of what a God (relationship) is .
So then explain this mumble-jumble in light of Yahweh calling other beings gods. Are you saying that because Yahweh called them gods, it means Yahweh was making them HIS gods? Or that they were TRUE gods to Him, but not to anyone else? Or that He bows and worships them? And that this must be the case because “it fulfills the original Hebrew words of what a God (relationship) is” ?
Walk me through it… Yahweh clearly calls other beings gods all throughout scripture. What EXACTLY does that mean. Why would He call them gods if they were not gods? What was Yahweh really trying to say when He called them gods. Explain it to me in the particular case of Ps 82 where Yahweh called them gods – as opposed to the more general explanation you gave above about various people’s relationships with various things. Focus only on Yahweh calling others gods in Ps 82, and explain clearly what that means.
Gene: The Word God is not a person, it is a description of your (relationship), with something, anything…
Okay. So now be specific about the case of Yahweh calling other beings gods in Ps 82. How exactly was Yahweh using the word “god” in Ps 82 as “a description of His relationship with something, anything” ?
Gene: There are many Gods to different people in this world, but to us they are all false Gods but to them they they may be their real God, but not to us…
Okay. So now specifically explain how your words above apply to the particular situation where Yahweh called other beings gods in Ps 82. Are you saying they were real gods to Yahweh, but they are false gods to us? Please explain it as it specifically relates to Yahweh calling other beings gods in Ps 82.
Gene: Scripture also says, ” but unto us (true believers) , there is but, “ONE” God and “one” mediator between God and men , the “MAN” Jesus Christ.” Just that simple, you either believe scriptures or not Mike.
Okay. So now explain how your words above apply specifically to Yahweh calling other beings gods in Ps 82. Are you saying that Yahweh is not a “true believer”? Are you saying that Yahweh doesn’t believe the scriptures? Please explain it to me clearly in light of Yahweh calling other beings gods in Ps 82.
Gene: Trying to trip people up by saying there are (little gods and BIG GODS ) upper case and lower case lettering, changes nothing espically when all the original texts were written in upper case lattering.
I’m not trying to trip people up, Gene. I’m just telling it how the Bible tells it. And the capital letters are just how we do thing in English. In the Hebrew and Greek, they usually added the definite article to show they were talking about THE god, and not just A god. In English, we don’t write out the word THE, but instead just cap the “G”.
For example, John 1:1 says that the word was with THE god, and was god. In English, we’d write that as the word was with God (capped “G”), and was a god.
See? THE god in Greek equates to God with a capped “G” in English. God without the definite article “the” in the Greek equates to A god in English.
But I agree that the upper or lower case letters don’t prove anything either way. Whether I address you as gene or as Gene, it won’t change the meaning of what I say to you. It’s just that in English, we capitalize proper names and titles like President, King, Queen, and God.
Anyway, I’m very interested in seeing how you will apply the explanations about what god means that you’ve been repeating here for 10 years to the specific case of Yahweh calling other beings gods in Ps 82.
Gene: I never hid from any question i was ask here on HN, that i know of anyway.
Okay. I guess this private thread will allow us to really get to the bottom of a lot of our disagreements then.
Gene: And by the way why should i not be saying the same thing over and over , does the truth change ?, No, the truth always stays the same no matter how long it exists. Why should you even want me to say something different, if what i say i believe is the truth.
My assertion is that the things you’ve been repeating for over 10 years are NOT the truth. And this thread will allow us to see who was right.
Gene: The one who should be changing, by excepting the truth is you, trying to make everyone God/god’s, even against scripture and what Jesus himself said…
Like I said, maybe you’re just misunderstanding what Jesus meant. But we’ll be able to flush that out soon enough in this private thread.
Gene: …now that’s, is pure garbage, just like you flat earth “crap” is, IMO.
Uh oh. So you’re saying that after I prove to you that you’ve been misunderstanding scripture all this time, you’ll have no choice but to question your misunderstandings on the shape of the earth too? Great! This thread is just what you and I needed. Well, as long as you keep participating and don’t run away like a scared little girl when the heat gets turned up on you… like Pretender did in our “Bible Versus Scientism” thread. 😉
Gene, I’m just bringing this one over from another thread, because it’s one of the many times I corner you and you just run away – only to return later spouting the same crap. So it’s now a part of this thread, and we can hopefully get to your answer in due time.
Notice the date of my post. This is what I mean. This question would have just gone unanswered forever, and then you’d come at me in a different thread on a later date, spouting the same old “is/was/came to be” claims that you’ve already made a bunch of other times – and that I already ADDRESSED a bunch of other times.
So this thread will be great for both of us, because you can do the same thing. If there is a point you made to me that I’ve overlooked, bring it up here and I’ll have no choice but to directly address it until the matter is fully and finally resolved.
Cheers
Mike…..Neither contradict each other, both are true, God’s is not a God to himself, he is a God to those who believe in him as their God. But the one who is “my” God and Jesus’s God , who is called YAHOVAH OR YAWAH “IS” OUR, GOD , WHO’S words express “ONLY” him, in the past and in the present. Simple as that.
Mike , you haven’t answered anything , just smoke and mirrors, God’s word was with God because it is part of who he is, both now and was forever. Just as your words are with you and express you and you only. Unless you are quoting someone else, as Jesus was quoting God the Fathers words to us . He never claimed he “himself”, was God’s words, in fact Jesus told us the words he was telling us “was “NOT” his words , but the words of him who sent him”. I believe the one that sent him was God the Father. Right? So those words were God the Fathers words right? Common sense 101 , So any simpleton should be able to put that together, do i need to try to explaine it to you again?
Maybe we need to go back to elementary understanding again with you , ok , do you even know what a word even is? To me and i assume the rest of the known world it means an intellegent expression, rather in type or speech, it’s still intellegent utterance. Do you at least understand that? Yes or No please.
This is very much like trying to show you the earth is a sphere not a flat earth, which any simpliton can see, fact is i am looking at it right now on TV, with my grandson, he sure thinks it is round, not flat as you falsely believe and preach. Anyone can simple go to their computer or TV, and watch the international space station travel around the earth , 24/7, and know the earth is not flat. If you can’t even understand that, then how are we to ever think you know or understand what our scriptures are truly saying Mike?
Peace and love to you and yours Mike………..gene
Gene, you are pontificating (look it up) instead of directly and reasonably answering my questions – as per the Hot Seat rules of engagement. Here’s where we’re at right now…
1. You have said that “the Word God is not a person, it is a description of your (relationship), with something, anything…”
I’m asking you to prove that claim using Ps 82…
“I have said you are gods, all of you sons of the Most High.”
Gene, was Yahweh saying that they were not persons, but were instead relationships He had with something? YES or NO?
2. You have claimed that “he, she or it is (YOUR ) “CONCIEVED”, “image” of something, that, (YOU) make up as, “YOUR”, God, that dosen’t mean it it a “TRUE” God to anyone else”.
“I have said you are gods, all of you sons of the Most High.”
Gene, was Yahweh saying that all of them were images that He conceived of as His God and made up as His God? YES or NO?
3. Gene, you have said that “there are many Gods to different people in this world, but to us they are all false Gods but to them they they may be their real God”.
“I have said you are gods, all of you sons of the Most High.”
Gene, was Yahweh saying that they were real gods to Him, but that they are false gods to us? YES or NO?
Gene, you need to answer these questions directly and honestly. Get to it.
Or you could just tell me what Yahweh meant by the word “gods” in Ps 82. When He called them gods, what was He calling them? What did He mean with the word “gods” that He used?
Gene: Maybe we need to go back to elementary understanding again with you , ok , do you even know what a word even is? To me and i assume the rest of the known world it means an intellegent expression, rather in type or speech, it’s still intellegent utterance. Do you at least understand that? Yes or No please.
I put this here so I don’t forget it. I will happily answer this question directly and honestly as soon as you answer my last post (which is actually a post from yesterday that you didn’t answer).
Mike, he certanly was not saying they were real God’s , why, because that would make him a liar, and we are told our God , does not lie.
Isa 44:6…..Thus says the LORD the king of Isreal and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside “ME” there is “NO” God.
Isa 44: 8…..Fear you not neither be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and have declared it?, you are even my witiness, “is there a God beside “ME” ?, yea there is “NO” God ; I Know not “ANY”.
Here God is addressing ISREAL, HIS REDEEMED NATION, he is not saying that those other nations don’t have “OTHER” God’s, “they worship as “THEIR” God’s, does he? But he is telling Isreal they are not true God’s , to HIM, AND HE IS ALSO TELLING, them there should be no other God to them either. He “Only” Is a “TRUE” God “TO THEM” .
Again it boils down to what everyone trust in for their, “power” they lean on for support”, just as the word GOD MEANS, so again anything can be a God to anyone, if it fulfills the meaning of the Word God. The word God does not imply a person, but the object you lean on for your power and support, just as the ancient picturoial language of the Hebrews shows.
BUT unto Jesus and us , “TRUE BELIEVERS”, we only have “ONE” “TRUE” GOD, no others. All others are false God’s to us. , when Jesus said i say you are all God’s , he meant that in a possive sense , that is why it also say “unto hum the word of God came”.
It is so obivious, IF GOD or Jesus meant they were actual “true” God’s themselves, then they should also be bowing down and worshiping each other as real God’s.
Your problem is so simple , you using the word for God , as meaning the person, when it means a “relationship” with something, anything that exists. Can even be a tree an be a God to someone,
Isa 44v17…..And the residue thereof (a tree), he “makes” a God, even his graven image; he falls down unto it, and worships “IT”, and prays unto “IT”, and says unto “IT” , Deliever me; for you are my God.
So we can see even a Tree can actually be “your” God” , if it meets the requirments, of what the word God means.
Again Mike for the hundreth time a God is not a person it is what your “relationship” is with it, even a tree can be a “real” GOD TO SOME. Do you now get it?
The reason i have to constantly go back over things over and over , it because you have not actually acknowledge it yet. Do you now understand what the word God means?
GOD is only a person when applied to a persons NAME, showing a “YOUR” relationship with HE , SHE, OR IT? the LORD (YAHOVAH) “OUR” God. That is saying the Yahovah is our God. Do you now GET IT? or do we have to keep going over and over this endlessy?
Peace and love to you and yours Mike……..gene
Hi Gene, I’m going to address your claims individually, and I expect you to stand and defend each one of them individually, since you claim that you have never run away from any question on HN.
Gene: Mike, he certanly was not saying they were real God’s , why, because that would make him a liar, and we are told our God , does not lie.
Here is the quote from Ps 82… “You are gods, all of you sons of the Most High, but you will die like men.”
I hear your claim above, and now I want you to present your scriptural evidence that when Yahweh said they were gods, He was not saying they were “real gods”.
Gene, where in that psalm can I find any indication of what you claim – that He called them gods, but didn’t actually mean they were gods?
Gene: Mike, he certanly was not saying they were real God’s , why, because that would make him a liar, and we are told our God , does not lie.
Gene, I hear your claim above, and now I need you to stand and defend your claim that calling them “real gods” would make Yahweh a liar. You have offered this as support…
Gene: Isa 44:6… beside “ME” there is “NO” God.
Here is my counter-argument…
Isaiah 43:11… beside “ME” there is “NO” savior.
Notice that the language matches your supporting scripture perfectly. Now pay attention…
Nehemiah 9:27… when they cried unto thee, you heard them from heaven; and according to your manifold mercies you gave them saviors, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
Acts 5:31… God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.
Gene, how can Yahweh say that there is “NO SAVIOR” but Him… when we know from the Bible that Yahweh sent many other saviors – including our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
You said in another thread that God didn’t mean He was LITERALLY the ONLY savior – but that he was the ULTIMATE savior. Do you still stand by that statement?
If not, please explain in your own words right here how Yahweh could say He was the only savior when we know other saviors exist and have existed.
And if you do stand by your previous statement…
Is it possible that “there is no god beside me” means that Yahweh is the ultimate god – just like “there is no savior beside me” means that Yahweh is the ultimate savior? Yes or No, please?
Gene: Your problem is so simple , you using the word for God , as meaning the person, when it means a “relationship” with something, anything that exists. Can even be a tree…
The reason i have to constantly go back over things over and over , it because you have not actually acknowledge it yet. Do you now understand what the word God means? or do we have to keep going over and over this endlessy?
I feel your pain, because from my point of view, I am the one who has to constantly go over this, because YOU don’t get it. So let’s sort it out once and for all, okay?
The word “god”, throughout the entire Bible, ALWAYS refers to a sentient, living being – one who can think, hear, and perform an action that can help someone, or cause harm to someone else.
YOU say that the word “god” means “relationship with anything”. That is utterly absurd, and I will prove it right now.
Gene, I challenge you to find ANY use of the word “god” in the entire Bible, and swap it out with “relationship with something”.
Let’s start with Ps 82… “You are gods, all of you sons of the Most High.”
Now let’s do it your way… “You are relationships with something, all of you sons of the Most High.”
Does it work, Gene?
How about Isaiah 44:6… “Beside me there is no god.”
Now let’s do it your way… “Beside me there is no relationship with something.”
Does it work, Gene?
Gene, produce one single scripture in the Bible where the word “god” means “relationship with something”… or openly admit that this claim of your is blatantly wrong.
Gene: when Jesus said i say you are all God’s , he meant that in a possive sense , that is why it also say “unto hum the word of God came”.
I have already corrected you on this before (one of the many times you just ignored my correction, ran away from the thread for a while, just to come back later and claim the same damn thing that I already corrected you on).
Listen carefully this time…
In English, we show possession by the word “of”, or an “apostrophe-s”. For example, if we were talking about a book that you owned, we’d say “the book OF Gene”, or “Gene’s book”.
In Greek, they didn’t use the word “of”, or the “apostrophe-s”. When they wanted to show possession, they would use the GENETIVE form of the same word. So if we wanted to show that you owned that book in the Greek language, the words would be “the book Gene”. But “Gene” would be written in the genitive form – and that would indicate that the words “the book Gene” actually mean “the book OF Gene”.
Now, here is the verse in question…
Gene, look at the bottom red rectangle first. Can you see that it is the Greek word for “god”, yet it is translated into English as “of god”? Do you know why? It’s because of that little underlined “G” to the right. That underlined “G” tells us that the word “god” was written in the GENITIVE form – which means possession – which means we translate it as “of god”, or “god’s”.
The Greek words actually say “the word god”. But we translate into English as “the word OF god” because the word “god” is in the genitive form – which means we add the word “of” in front of it. Just like “the book Gene” becomes “the book OF Gene” if Gene is written in the genitive form.
Now look at the top red rectangle – where Jesus says he called them gods. Do you see the “G” in the column to the right, indicating the possessive genitive form of the Greek word “gods”? No. That’s because it WASN’T written in the genitive form, which means it DOESN’T show possession, which means we DON’T add the word “of” or an “apostrophe-s” to it.
So no, Gene, Jesus most definitely did NOT say that they were “god’s” – as in belonging to God. Your claim is 100% wrong, and you need to acknowledge that and put an end to yet another inaccurate argument you’ve been making. Are you an honest man who will acknowledge that he made a mistake?
So the bottom line is that Yahweh unequivocally called them gods, and Jesus unequivocally told the Jews that Yahweh called them gods. And that means both your God and your Lord called these sons of the Most High “gods”. And there is no indication in any scripture that either one of them meant “false gods”, or “so-called gods”. Both Yahweh and Jesus simply called them what they actually were… gods.
I look forward to your DIRECT and HONEST answers to the questions and challenges I’ve presented you with today.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
