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Quote (lamontre @ June 14 2007,07:56) Thank you for your encouraging words WJ. Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.Note the past and present tense of these words…..
Without the triunity of God, and the deity of Jesus Christ, these words are senseless.
In vs 23, the bolded term “even as” is;
G2531
kath-oce'
From G2596 and G5613; just (or inasmuch) as, that: – according to, (according, even) as, how, when.It has the implication of “when”. So that we could read it to say, that we should honor the Father and the Son, not only in the same manner, but at the same time. How can we heed Jesus words here, without a trinitarian view?
How the implications of such verses can escape some, is beyond me.
1 Cor.15: 24-28“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
For he must reign UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything ” has been put under him, it is clear that this dos not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
WHEN he has done this, THEN the Son himself WILL BE MADE SUBJECT to him who put everything under him, so that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”
***********************
Jesus is to be honored the same as the Father during this time of reign. Then he will also be made subject to the Father SO THAT the Father may be ALL IN ALL.
That is a non-Trinitarian view for you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2007,09:48) Hi not3
1Cor 15[kjv]
” 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.”
compare
ylt
” 47The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven; “
nasb
“47The first man is (A)from the earth, (B)earthy; the second man is from heaven.”
niv
“47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.”
esv
“47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.”The NIV does not specify any manuscript variation as it usually does if there is any.
It would be good to know more.
OK – interesting! Thank you, Nick. This clears up any confusion I was about to create for myself.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2007,17:30) 94 You say…
Quote
Joh 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is * of God, he hath seen the Father.But my understanding of this verse is that he did not see him visibly otherwise it would contradict the following scripture:
This is exactly what I wrote about in the previous post. That when scripture dosnt make sence to us we just explain it away.
The scripture means exactly as it says…Jesus saw the Father. And it is not a contradiction to…
1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.How could Jesus be able to “Declare” him if he hadnt seen him?
Jesus did not lie when he said he has seen the Father. The seeming contradiction is with you and the “Unitarians” who do not believe in the pre-existance of Jesus the Word that was with God.
For if it is true that “No Man” has seen God, but Jesus has. Then that would mean that Jesus must have seen God before he came in the likeness of sinful flesh and that would destroy your foundational belief.
The scripture dosnt need any interpretation.
Jn 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, **he hath seen the Father**.Blessings
Hi WJ:I did not sweep any scripture under the rug. I have given you my understanding which happens to be different than yours, and so I am praying that God will give us revelation knowledge in his Word so that we can be united in truth.
I certainly do not want to teach any thing that is not the truth in God's Word, and I would hope that you do not want this either.
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2007,08:10) Hi LAM,
Indeed all the prophets of God should have been honoured for their roles as vessels for God,
but they, along with the Son of God, were murdered because men hate our God.Lk 20
” 9Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.10And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.”
Oh good grief….so the all judgement was committed to the prophets and they were to be honored as God??Well I pray your joking?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,09:51) Quote (lamontre @ June 14 2007,07:56) Thank you for your encouraging words WJ. Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.Note the past and present tense of these words…..
Without the triunity of God, and the deity of Jesus Christ, these words are senseless.
In vs 23, the bolded term “even as” is;
G2531
kath-oce'
From G2596 and G5613; just (or inasmuch) as, that: – according to, (according, even) as, how, when.It has the implication of “when”. So that we could read it to say, that we should honor the Father and the Son, not only in the same manner, but at the same time. How can we heed Jesus words here, without a trinitarian view?
How the implications of such verses can escape some, is beyond me.
1 Cor.15: 24-28“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
For he must reign UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything ” has been put under him, it is clear that this dos not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
WHEN he has done this, THEN the Son himself WILL BE MADE SUBJECT to him who put everything under him, so that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”
***********************
Jesus is to be honored the same as the Father during this time of reign. Then he will also be made subject to the Father SO THAT the Father may be ALL IN ALL.
That is a non-Trinitarian view for you.
Sorry, but once again, you need to remember who Jesus was talking to, and when. The tense of His words would have been understood by the hearers as being spoken directly to them, and about them, and regarding that time.He was to be honored then, at that time, as God; just as now.
There is no escaping the implications, there is only interpreting them away because you don't like what they tell you.
And there is no escaping that you hold your interpretations and I have mine. Who is right? You? Of course.
Anyway, you wanted to know how other's could possibly miss your interpretation – I gave you one idea.
To me, this passage of scripture when taken in context and as it is given – simply – it describes beautifully Jesus' position with the Father. I'm sorry if it is not what you want to hear.
Quote (lamontre @ June 14 2007,12:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2007,08:10) Hi LAM,
Indeed all the prophets of God should have been honoured for their roles as vessels for God,
but they, along with the Son of God, were murdered because men hate our God.Lk 20
” 9Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.10And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.”
Oh good grief….so the all judgement was committed to the prophets and they were to be honored as God??Well I pray your joking?
Hi LAM,
Christ was one of the prophets.
Acts 3
” 20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
He was the most important prophet being filled with the fullness of deity.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,12:49) And there is no escaping that you hold your interpretations and I have mine. Who is right? You? Of course.
Thank you….I agree.Quote (lamontre @ June 15 2007,12:01) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,12:49) And there is no escaping that you hold your interpretations and I have mine. Who is right? You? Of course.
Thank you….I agree.
I'm glad you have a sense of humor! We need more humor around here!Everyone is right in their own eyes.
That is why we must trust scripture over our own view and keep away from the creeds of men.
It's been a long time since I posted here. Have you missed me? lol
There are so many instances recorded in the Old Testament of people seeing God, and this number increases dramatically if you believe what John said in John 1 about the Word being in the beginning and being with God and being God. With that in mind, read Genesis 15.4 and you will see that the Word of God came to Abram to speak to him. The Word of God also visited Samuel, Nathan, Gad, Solomon, Shemaiah, Jehu, Elijah, Isaiah, Nathan, Jeremiah (many times), Ezekiel (many times), Haggai, Zechariah, and then was put in Mary's womb and made flesh. How fantastic is that??
This is of course aside from the times that God appeared to men and in fact all three appeared as men at times. But God appeared to Abraham Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety-nine years old, Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him, I am the Almighty God! Walk before Me and be perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying………I could go on, but I'm sure there's enough there to chew on.
Quote (t8 @ July 04 2007,12:52) Everyone is right in their own eyes. That is why we must trust scripture over our own view and keep away from the creeds of men.
If we are to rely on Scripture so much, how do we deal with contradictions? For example,
Mat 27:3 Then he who had betrayed Him, seeing that He was condemned, sorrowing, Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver again to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 saying, I have sinned, betraying innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? You see to that.
Mat 27:5 And he threw the pieces of silver down in the temple and departed. And he went and hanged himself.
Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7 And they took counsel and bought the potter's field with them, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8 Therefore that field was called, The Field of Blood, to this day.Compared to
Act 1:16 Men, brothers, this Scripture must have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke before concerning Judas, who became guide to those who seized Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered with us and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 Indeed, then, this one purchased a field with the reward of unrighteousness. And falling headlong, he burst apart in the middle, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known to all the dwellers at Jerusalem, so much so that that field is called in their own dialect, Akeldama, that is to say, Field of Blood.There are many such contradictions in Scripture. Scripture was inspired by God, but written by imperfect men and then translated by imperfect man. The ONLY Word of God that is totally reliable is the One who rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Quote (Oxy @ June 12 2010,03:53) Quote (t8 @ July 04 2007,12:52) Everyone is right in their own eyes. That is why we must trust scripture over our own view and keep away from the creeds of men.
If we are to rely on Scripture so much, how do we deal with contradictions? For example,
Mat 27:3 Then he who had betrayed Him, seeing that He was condemned, sorrowing, Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver again to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 saying, I have sinned, betraying innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? You see to that.
Mat 27:5 And he threw the pieces of silver down in the temple and departed. And he went and hanged himself.
Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7 And they took counsel and bought the potter's field with them, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8 Therefore that field was called, The Field of Blood, to this day.Compared to
Act 1:16 Men, brothers, this Scripture must have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke before concerning Judas, who became guide to those who seized Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered with us and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 Indeed, then, this one purchased a field with the reward of unrighteousness. And falling headlong, he burst apart in the middle, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known to all the dwellers at Jerusalem, so much so that that field is called in their own dialect, Akeldama, that is to say, Field of Blood.There are many such contradictions in Scripture. Scripture was inspired by God, but written by imperfect men and then translated by imperfect man. The ONLY Word of God that is totally reliable is the One who rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father.
oxywere is the contradiction could you pointed out for me i can not see it
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ June 12 2010,12:30) Quote (Oxy @ June 12 2010,03:53) Quote (t8 @ July 04 2007,12:52) Everyone is right in their own eyes. That is why we must trust scripture over our own view and keep away from the creeds of men.
If we are to rely on Scripture so much, how do we deal with contradictions? For example,
Mat 27:3 Then he who had betrayed Him, seeing that He was condemned, sorrowing, Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver again to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 saying, I have sinned, betraying innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? You see to that.
Mat 27:5 And he threw the pieces of silver down in the temple and departed. And he went and hanged himself.
Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7 And they took counsel and bought the potter's field with them, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8 Therefore that field was called, The Field of Blood, to this day.Compared to
Act 1:16 Men, brothers, this Scripture must have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke before concerning Judas, who became guide to those who seized Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered with us and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 Indeed, then, this one purchased a field with the reward of unrighteousness. And falling headlong, he burst apart in the middle, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known to all the dwellers at Jerusalem, so much so that that field is called in their own dialect, Akeldama, that is to say, Field of Blood.There are many such contradictions in Scripture. Scripture was inspired by God, but written by imperfect men and then translated by imperfect man. The ONLY Word of God that is totally reliable is the One who rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father.
oxywere is the contradiction could you pointed out for me i can not see it
Pierre
Matt 27.5 says Judas threw the money down in the temple whereas Acts 1.18 says Judas used the money to buy a field.This is not the only contradiction in Scripture, but my purpose is not to discredit Scripture. My purpose is simply to emphasis the fact that our dependence needs to be on the Lord rather than the Scriptures.
I have heard so many people say things like God can't say it unless it's in the Bible.. but Jesus said and did far more than what was written, so why limit God?
I have heard so many people say that if God speaks to you He will confirm it through the Scriptures, but He once told me to buy a truck. I have not yet found buying a truck mentioned in Scripture.
The point is this, we should know our Lord's voice and be obedient to Him. Yes, He will teach us through Scripture, but He will also speak of other things to us. For example, I was in Dick Smith's electronic shop some months ago and He told me to buy a data projector, even though I had no use for one and didn't have the $999 necessary, but I did as He told me.. the full story is here… http://www.all4god.net/projector.htm
God is great and it is an awesome thing to know Him and follow Him. I love Him with all my heart and He excites and inspires me more than ever after 32 years of following Him.
OXY………Glad to see you back brother……..But both can be right , because the Money was Judas' and he gave it back , but they did not except it back and so he throw it on the floor, and it was used by those who picked it up it up to purchase the field , so in a (sense), Judas did purchase the field. It was his money that was used for that purchase. Hop that clarified this Oxy.
Peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 12 2010,15:57) OXY………Glad to see you back brother……..But both can be right , because the Money was Judas' and he gave it back , but they did not except it back and so he throw it on the floor, and it was used by those who picked it up it up to purchase the field , so in a (sense), Judas did purchase the field. It was his money that was used for that purchase. Hop that clarified this Oxy. Peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Thanks for the welcome
But how can the pharisees buying the land be likened to Judas buying the land. Either one or the other bought it. I think there are something like 101? contradictions listed in Scripture according to one site I saw, but as I said before, my intention is not to discredit the Bible, but rather place our dependence where it belongs, on the Lord.
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