- This topic is empty.
- Posts
The work of the cross is God’s offer of life…
Baptism is our acceptance.To be saved we must:
1.) Hear the “good news” of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:14)
2.) Believe (Hebrews 11:6; Acts 8:37; Mark 16:16)
3.) Repent of our sins (Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38; Acts 17:30; Mark 10:15)
4.) Confess faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 8:36-37; Romans 10:9)
5.) Be baptized (in water) for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:37-41; 1Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-8; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:26-27; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 8:34-39; Ephesians 4:5)
6.) Remain faithful for the rest of our lives and carry our cross daily (Revelation 2:10; Matthew 24:13; Luke 9:23)
I will open a can of worms with this topic and will not be able to give all the attention to this discussion it will arouse simply because there are not enough hours in the day and I have a family to support.
But with that said, I have put up a website that explains what the biblical plan of salvation is, including a section devoted to answering objections to the requirment of salvation for baptism. If anyone wants to debate this, most answers to your objections will be found on this page:
http://www.bebaptized.org/Somecommonarguments.htm
I would suggest looking for an answer there first before posting here, as most of the time I will just refer to the page the answer in contained on.
IN your list of how to be saved you state that we must do alot of things, and at the end you state that we must remain faithful for the rest of our lives and carry the cross daily…..Well I surely hope that you mispoke here because we were saved by grace and believing Rom 10:9-10, nothing we ever did will ever make us deserve what we got and nothing we can ever do will either. Once you are born again it is permanent just like you could not be reborn physically, so if you descided to do nothing with it the rest of your life, and be a "couch potato" for God, then you would still be saved. Having said this it would definatly be the wrong choice but it would not put you being saved at risk. We should act out of love for what God has done for us and be the men and women for God that he has called us to be, but if we descide not to it does not mean that you are no longer a son of God.
Further more I do not understand how you can still say that we need the babtism of John (water) when in Rom. 10:9-10 it clearly states how to get born again and it makes NO refrence to water at all….it only states that you must BELIEVE. I understand that water babtism was carried out in the gospels and that if it is done now it does not hurt anything, but the bible clearly states that we must "CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, and thou SHALT be saved." (not if you do that and some neat stuff with water!) the versus that follow give the reasons that this is an acceptable means of getting saved……"whosoever believeth shall not be ashamed" ect.
The only reason that I am taking the time to talk about you post was because of the clause that we have to keep "acting good". That is "work"in bible terms, and the bible clearly states that we were saved by grace and not by work lest any man should boast. I do not think that water babtism is harmful at all, just not necessary because if we believe Rom. 10:9-10 then we are already saved.Have a great day!
sunnybRomans 10.9 is the basis of a huge apostasy. As a lone scripture suggesting that baptism is unnecessary it has been misinterpreted and deceived several generations. At face value it flies in the face of the words of Jesus and the obedience of His followers and like all scriptures that seem different it needs deeper study rather than bald acceptance. If you look at the context it was directed to the Jews only pleading with those who knew scripture to take the next step and follow Jesus. Faith is insufficient as James has told us and obedience is also required-You MUST be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.
Great post emmerse. Im with you on pts 1-5, and I believe that pt 6 is also incredibly important too but im not entirely convinced our salvation is at risk if we don't adhere. Certainly eternal rewards are, and these should never be undervalued. My calvinistic view on this issue is derived primarily from these verses:
“and I give eternal life for them, and they shall never perish; and NO ONE shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand”
John 10:28-30 (emphasis added).I read the words “no one” to include the saved person him/herself.
Certainly belief in God's existance alone is not enough. James 2:19 makes that clear. And if you think about it this verse makes perfect sense because by that criteria demons, who also believe “that God is One”, would qualify.
Its important to define what repentance actually is though, as its not just remorse as many believe. To repent of your sins is to “change ones mind or purpose” (translated from the Greek 'metanoeo') its actually 'turning' from your sinful past and moving in a different direction – taking the road less travelled. The Holy Spirit is obviously actively involved in this as we are entirely inadequate with out Him.
What should follow is a transformation of the mind (Rom 12:2). I found after I was saved my whole worldview radically changed and the worldly things that were initially important to me slowly began to seem insignificant while at the same time Jesus became progressively more important. So if you truly are saved and give the Holy Spirit licence to work through you – then pt 6 will take care of itself.
God Bless
Hi Is,
The other scripture about this is in 2 Tim 2” Therefore I bear with all of this for the sake of those whom God has chosen in order that they MAY OBTAIN the salvation to be found in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. You can depend on this IF WE HAVE DIED WITH HIM [IN BAPTISM] WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM. IF WE HOLD OUT TO THE END WE SHALL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM.[REV.20.4]……..BUT IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL DENY US……..IF WE ARE UNFAITHFUL HE WILL STILL REMAIN FAITHFUL FOR HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.
So only personally rejecting our salvation can lose us the prize.
[/I][/U]Hi NH,
Yes but are you saying that you can't lose it once you have received it? After all, it seems illogical that someone can have 'eternal life' for a finite period of time. Your thoughts?“and I give eternal life for them, and they shall never perish; and NO ONE shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand”
John 10:28-30 (emphasis added).I read the words “no one” to include the saved person him/herself.
Hi Is,
” No one [man or devil?]can snatch them out of My hand”The one who snatches cannot also be the one who is snatched surely? Get a hold of yourself indeed!!!
What a wonderful place to be ..in the hand of Jesus.But Jesus also said in Lk 12.9[also Mt10.33 and Mk 8.38]
” But the man who has disowned Me in the presence of men will be disowned in the presence of the angels of God”
Peter did but repented fortunately.And remember God is not man. He can spew us out of His mouth or remove the lampstand or erase our name out of the book of Life.The most revealing warning about complacency after salvation is 1 Cor 10 1-5.
The wise man builds on the foundation of Jesus and builds something that can withstand the severe storms and challenges to our faith we will meet.
NH,
Its a really tricky call, there are good arguments on both sides of this one. I guess on balance I lean towards the calvinists in terms of their ascribing to Jesus the completeness of His work on the cross.Actually, if you read Jn 10:28-30 carefully you will see that the saved are in the hand(s) of both Jesus and the Father. Hard to see how anyone could extract themselves from that grip!
I don't see how 1 Cor 10 1-5 relates to complacency after salvation. Might have to read it again to see what you mean.
Hi Is,
There has never been any question that Jesus completed His work on the cross. But our free will is the other side of the problem and there will not be enough takers to fill the seats for the marriage feast so the poor and downtrodden will have to fill the spare places. Few are really interested in the message of salvation. Many are satisfied with empty religion and false teachers. How frustrating for God.I think that one can lose their salvation if they want. God never overrides our free will and some people actually choose to disown God and are ashamed of their Lord later on.
We see such things in the seeds that were cast on shallow ground and they sprung up for a while, but they were not able to take root and others who are choked by the cares of this world.
The extreme of this is blasphemy of the Spirit, and those who have tasted of the Age to come and fall away later, only to find it impossible to crucify Christ again.
God never gave repentance to the Angels because they have seen the perfect light. We on the otherhand were born into sin and God in his mercy is calling us out of this world to give us a chance to see the perfect light. But those who have tasted of the age to come are like the angels in that they would be rejecting the perfect light knowingly and hence cannot crucify Christ again. I would suggest that this would be true but for a very few. Maybe Judas Iscariot was one?
God never forces anyone to be saved and so even he must comply with those who choose to abandon their faith.
I would suggest that no one can be removed from Christ, if they choose Christ, even in all their weakness.
Hi T8
Im a little confused as to what your position is on this one. In the beginning of your post you state: “one can lose their salvation if they want” but you finish it with: “I would suggest that no one can be removed from Christ, if they choose Christ, even in all their weakness.” So do you believe once saved always saved, or not?Your parable of the sower example doesnt quite fit if you are arguing that you can lose your salvation because if you read Matt 13:18-23, where Jesus explains this parable:
The seeds that fell beside the road represented “anyone that hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it”. The seed that fell in the rocky places represented those who hear the word, recieve it but cave under presecution. The seeds sown among the thorns represented those who also receive it but the “worry of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word”. In each case they only hear or receive the good news. Were they saved to begin with?, im dubious.
If you have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never “eternal” at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. Ephesians 1:13 tells us we are “SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”
ps how do you do those quote boxes?, I still can't figure it out
I think that in order to become the elect, one must be born and then choose. The Angels were created perfect and then they got to choose God or Satan. One third chose to rebel and they were cast away from God's presence.
With us, it is the other way round. We were born into sin, but are given the opportunity to choose God and we can be given eternal life because God's Spirit gives us life and he is eternal. But while we are walking this earth, God respects all our decisions, even if we abandon the faith. He will not force someone to live forever with him, if they choose not to. He can remove his Spirit from them if he wants.
But once we inherit the next age, it is impossible then to fall away if we chose God in this age. Like the elect angels we are also the elect. It will be impossible for us to fall away in that age.
In the next age our fallen human nature which we still have now will be gone, and we will be partakers of the divine nature. We will be perfect and it will be impossible for us to fall away as there will be no evil to sweep us away. If we choose God, in a dark world, then that is our choice and if Angels chose the darkness whilst in a world of light and perfection, then that is what they chose.
But after the test, our decision remains forever and we will know nothing but perfection and the former things will have passed away. While we are in the world, we are still in the testing stage, for the world is evil and the wheat and tares grow here side by side. If God had finished testing us, then we not need to be in the world.
God never tempts us, but surely he weighs our lives in his balance. Are we wheat or tares? Our fruit will show who we are, as no good fruit comes from a bad tree and vice versa. But some will appear as good, but time will show otherwise.
In this world, we can at anytime choose to bow to either our own human nature or the Spirit of God. However which one we live by, determines our destiny.
Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[ 6:8 Or his flesh, from the flesh] will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.Those who receive the Spirit still have their own human nature. It is this battle that shows our will and our choice. Which will we choose. This choice is no different to the choice the Angels had. Did they remain in their abodes or did they choose to abandon them? Except for us it has more to do with, abandoning our abode (the world) or do we choose to stay in the world and prove therefore that we are of it.
My question is, if someone repents and lives for God, but later they succumb to the cares of this world to the degree that their faith is choked and dies. And by their nature they live not by the Spirit, but the flesh. Then has this person really chosen God as their master or has their actions shown what they have really chosen? A choice is not so much a spilt second decision, but a lifetime proves our real choices. We can make all kinds of decisions, but time proves the ones we really make.
Sometimes time is needed in order to prove a person. Sometimes those who start off in God, grow for a time, but they wither up and die. Our lives and our words are the fruit of our hearts. What is in the heart of man can be hard to see sometimes, but the day will show it up for what it is.
I know a person who was dieing and said to God that he would serve him if God saved him. He was truly delivered by a miracle and even saw an angel, but he chose not to live for God. So did he really choose God at that moment? It was time that showed his real decision. Perhaps he will serve God? Perhaps time will show that he ultimately will? I hope so.
Matthew 13:28-30
28″ 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
“The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29″ 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' “So it is at the harvest, that the wheat and the tares grow together. A tare looks like wheat when it is young. It is hard to tell the difference. So it is that those who appear to be believers may only look like wheat, but time will show them to be otherwise.
But for the Elect, we will shine like the sun in the presence of God forever.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 19 2004,03:10) ps how do you do those quote boxes?, I still can't figure it out
At the top and bottom of this and other discussion pages you will see a button called “Add Reply”. Next to that you will see “New Topic” & “New Poll”.Hi T8 and Is,
” Ground which drinks in the rain falling on it again and again and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives the blessing of God. But if it bears thorns and thistles it is worthless ,it is soon cursed and finally it is burned” Heb 6 7-8
We are just soil.
The path is hard and sheds water[the Holy Spirit]It is not open to the gospel[seed] .
Stony soil cannot fully accept the growth of that gospel in us due to doubts and preconceptions .
But all we have to do is be cleared and plowed ,[repent and be baptised] then let God do the rest and wait for the shoot,the leaf and finally let the fruit[the character of Jesus] appear in us.
It is all the work of the Gardener.Is the church ready to welcome back it's leader? Will Jesus be happy with what he finds when He returns? a confusion of faiths all claiming His Name but not obeying His teachings.
Surely we should be sad as Nehemiah seeing the walls broken down and the teachings of the good book ignored.
I know little but I try to fulfill my role as a signpost, to make some good use of the blessings He has given me and my family to promote His kingdom.
But the foundation must be properly laid – Jesus.
Yes nick, We must pray for GoD to send out Ppl with power to redifine the current systems, so a definitive version of what it means to be a christian is plainly known to all, like in the days of the disciples. According to his will.
Workers to the fields.
Hi Ringo,
I would it would be a simple case of commonsense and self preservation. If people feared God they would want to make sure they understood and obeyed. as you say the consequences of error here are eternal.As Jesus said in Lk 18.8 and 21 36
“But when the Son of Man comes will He find faith on the earth?”
” So be on the watch. Pray constantly for the strength to ESCAPE whatever is in prospect and stand secure before the Son of Man”
Is 50.2
“Why was no one there when I came ? Why did no one answer when I called”The parable of the foolish bridesmaids asleep at the return of the Master because they had no oil-The Holy Spirit-is a warning to us. The door shut in their faces and they did not ESCAPE the suffering of the tribulation.
We should instead be seeking the blessing.
Mt 24.45
” Who is the FAITHFUL farsighted servant whom the master has put in charge of his household to dispense food at need? Happy that servant whom the Master discovers at work when He returns. I assure you He will put him in charge of all His property”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
