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Gene said:
Quote Thinker………The son revealing the FATHER to us WAS THE FATHERS WILL, JESUS PLAINLY SAID HE COULD DO NOTHING ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE AND NOW YOU BELIEVE JESUS IS DIFFERENT AND DOES WHAT EVER HE WILL AND WANTS TO DO.
Gene,
Jesus did not say that the Son reveals the Father to us according to the Father's will. He CLEARLY said that all things have been delivered into His hands and that it is it is according to His own will that He reveals the Father to us:“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
What part of the statement “ALL things have been delivered into My hand” do you not understand? The “hand” signifies power and authority. Jesus meant that “ALL things have been delivered into My power” or that “ALL things have become under My authority.”
IT'S SO CLEAR! How can you say that no difference took place?
If an earthly father commits the family business to his Son and gives him “ALL authority”, then His authority becomes the authority of the father. Any employee who takes issue with that Son's authority will be fired by that Son. Because you take issue with the Son's authority you will be cast into the lake of fire. Either align yourself with God's program or be ready to suffer.
I marvel that you think that Jesus still holds the same servant rank today that He did in the days of His flesh. The Bible clearly says that He has been exalted. But you deny it saying that no difference took place. If no difference took place then He was not exalted. Be ready to pay the consequences for your dissent Bub!
If you worked for the business of which the earthly son took over you wouldn't even think of questioning his authority. You know that you would not be able to feed your family because you would be fired. Yet you question the authority of the Son of God who is the mediator and the administrator of the covenant of salvation. I suggest that you fear THE SON as you would fear the earthly son who took over the family business.
“Honor the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.” Psalm 2:12The Son He has the authority to destroy you. But if you trust in Him you will be blessed. If you think you know the Father then you have the Son to thank because He revealed the Father to you according to His own will. He could have chosen not to give you any thought at all. His authority includes the power to reveal the Father to whomsoever HE WILLS. Yet you bad mouth Him.
Btw, your false accusations against me and terraricca's against WJ reveal that you know you are losing the argument. People who are losing must resort to accusations because they have no other valid defense.
thinker
Hi TT,
The lesser is blessed by the greater.[Heb7]
So any delivery from God to His Son shows that what Jesus said is true.
The Father is greater than Jesus.Is your trinity made up of unequal and variable parts?
Do you yet KNOW WHO GOD IS?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 03 2010,04:34) Hi TT,
The lesser is blessed by the greater.[Heb7]
So any delivery from God to His Son shows that what Jesus said is true.
The Father is greater than Jesus.Is your trinity made up of unequal and variable parts?
Do you yet KNOW WHO GOD IS?
Nick,Who revealed the Father to you?
Here is a clue:
“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” Matthew 11:27
Do you need another clue?
thinker
hi TT
if i get a box of candy's from my father , and can share them with anyone i want ,if there are no restriction.whats your problem it is elementary.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 06 2010,07:14) hi TT
if i get a box of candy's from my father , and can share them with anyone i want ,if there are no restriction.whats your problem it is elementary.
The prophets said that Messiah would “turn the hearts” of men. Jesus works in the hearts of men and reveals the Father to them. He is God.Amen!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 02 2010,20:39) Marty said: Quote No man can come to the Father except through Jesus, but you are making it sound that like he(Jesus) picks and chooses to whom he will reveal the Father, but let me remind you:
Marty,Jesus CLEARLY said that He reveals the Father to men according as He wills:
” All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
He said that “ALL things have been delivered to Me by my Father.” Then He said that the Son reveals the Father to whom “HE WILLS”. Both statements together clearly infer that Jesus now has ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY.
Why did you avoid this verse? My guess is that you don't believe that Jesus was really exalted.
thinker
Hi thethinker:Jesus does not pick and choose to whom he will reveal the Father as you are making it to seem. The avenue to salvation is that someone believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead. And so, if someone believes(not just a mental assent), Jesus will reveal the Father to that person.
He died for every individual on the face of the earth, and so, in that he suffered all that he suffered, do you not suppose that it is his will to reveal the Father to everyone?
Love in Christ,
Martythinker………So you are accusing Jesus of Lying when he said (NO ONE) CAN come unto ME (UNLESS) the FATHER DRAW HIM. Again you are replacing GOD the FATHER with Jesus. YOU are not longer believing what Jesus Said NOR what the FATHER said “you shall have (NO) other GOD besides ME”. Doesn't anything bother you Trinitarians. I told you before you are not seeing the forest because of the trees. You are forgetting others scriptures that contradict what you are saying. A typical trinitarians and preexistences problem.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 08 2010,09:58) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 06 2010,07:14) hi TT
if i get a box of candy's from my father , and can share them with anyone i want ,if there are no restriction.whats your problem it is elementary.
The prophets said that Messiah would “turn the hearts” of men. Jesus works in the hearts of men and reveals the Father to them. He is God.Amen!
thinker
Hi TT,
What happened to the THEREFORE?
Perhaps you just implied it before giving yourself an amen.Quote (Gene @ Jan. 08 2010,13:10) thinker………So you are accusing Jesus of Lying when he said (NO ONE) CAN come unto ME (UNLESS) the FATHER DRAW HIM. Again you are replacing GOD the FATHER with Jesus. YOU are not longer believing what Jesus Said NOR what the FATHER said “you shall have (NO) other GOD besides ME”. Doesn't anything bother you Trinitarians. I told you before you are not seeing the forest because of the trees. You are forgetting others scriptures that contradict what you are saying. A typical trinitarians and preexistences problem.
Gene,I have explained this before. But I will take you by the hand and explain it again. Jesus was under the Father's will and He could save only those who the Father drew to Him.
But now that He is exalted He may save whomsoever He wills and He Himself draws men to Himself:
” And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
It's clear Gene! Jesus draws men now. It's not a matter of calling Him a liar. What He said about the Father doing the drawing was true when He said it. But it is not true today.
Question: Are you calling Jesus a liar? He said that in His exalted state He reveals the Father to whomsoever He wills. He said that He Himself draws men to Himself.
You are denying the authority Jesus has at God's right hand. Plain and simple!
thinker
Quote “But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ” Galatians 1:11-12 2 things:
1. Are we not told repeatedly in the Gospels that Jesus spoke what the father told him to say. Jesus message was the Fathers, from the Father, and delivered by Jesus.
2. The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (rev 1:1)
ANd one more thing:
Quote Major premise: God reveals truth
Minor premise: The Son reveals the Father
Conclusion: Therefore, the Son is GodI'm not sure you actually logically explained in any sort of reasonable logical way why your premise leads to your conclusion.
Quote (david @ Jan. 25 2010,18:54) Quote “But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ” Galatians 1:11-12 2 things:
1. Are we not told repeatedly in the Gospels that Jesus spoke what the father told him to say. Jesus message was the Fathers, from the Father, and delivered by Jesus.
2. The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (rev 1:1)
ANd one more thing:
Quote Major premise: God reveals truth
Minor premise: The Son reveals the Father
Conclusion: Therefore, the Son is GodI'm not sure you actually logically explained in any sort of reasonable logical way why your premise leads to your conclusion.
David,Yes we are told repeatedly that Jesus in His state of humiliation spoke what the Father told Him to say. We are also told repeatedly that in His exalted state He does whatsoever He wills. He said, “ALL authority has been given to Me in heaven and in earth.” You do not tell the WHOLE truth which in a court of law is considered PERGURY!
Trinitarians confess Christ's humiliation but anti-trinitarians DENY His exaltation.
I answered Revelation 1:1 in my debate with t8. I copy and paste it for you here:
t8,
I am going to deal with your “proof texts” from the Revelation one by one. You replied to WJ by asking the question “What is Jesus now?” Then you offered 1:1 as as your first “proof text” that He is less than God at present because it says that God “gave” Him the Revelation.
Here is the problem: You assume that Jesus continued to receive truth after He was exalted and then conclude that Jesus cannot be God now. But does the text say when the Revelation was given Him? No it does not. It simply says that it was given Him and the when of it must be upon His exaltation and not continuously afterwards.
Here is my support:
Quote 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
Jesus said “all that the Father has IS MINE.” Jesus said this THREE TIMES. So ALL truth was upon His exaltation was equally HIS.At His Father's right hand Jesus may dispense truth according to HIS OWN WILL:
Quote 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
When it comes right down to it your “proof text” does not answer the question “What is Jesus now?” It says that His Father gave Him the Revelation without reference to when. It is a simple assertion of the fact. Jesus possessed all truth upon His exaltation and was not given it continuously afterwards. At His Father's right hand Jesus dispenses truth according to His own will.thethinker said:
Quote Major premise: Only God reveals truth
Minor premise: The Son reveals the Father
Conclusion: Therefore, the Son is GodDavid replied:
Quote I'm not sure you actually logically explained in any sort of reasonable logical way why your premise leads to your conclusion.David:
David,First, I added the word “only” in italics in my major premise. I overlooked that and this is why it seems to you that I didn't explain why my premises lead to my conclusion. The conclusion necessary follows if both premises are true. If even one premise is false then the conclusion is false.
I ask you: Are both premises true? If you say yes then the conclusion necessarily follows. If you say no then you deny scripture.
thinker
TT,
The premises can be what you like them to be, if you close of all avenues to the listener, like a magic conjuring trick:
Trinitarian to non-triniatarian:
Premise 1: You say that Jesus wasn't God because he said 'Noone is GOOD except God'”
Premise 2: If jesus isn't GOOD then he MUST be BAD – he is either “Good” OR “BAD”
Conclusion: Jesus is God because he WASN'T “BAD”thinker………What you are failing to realize is that GOD (GAVE) Him it as an Heir, It also say He will give all thing unto US also . What you are not seeing is GOD is the giver of what ever Jesus has no matter what it is , why do you think Jesus went further is his statement and said the reason he said that was, “THEREFORE (another words this is the reason) I said he (the Spirit (intellect) of Truth) will take of mine and declare it unto you”. Everything Jesus has is given of GOD and the same holds true for us now and in the future. So If we give something we have to someone else we can also everything we Have was given to us from GOD and we give it to a person. But that does not make us the GOD that GAVE it to us does it?
Your continually trying to eliminate The FATHER and REPLACE HIM With Jesus, is serving an EVIL PURPOSE, you would be far better of to be conforming to the (EXACTNESS) of Christ Jesus instead of trying to make him your GOD of WORSHIP, which turns Him into the MAN OF SIN, 2Th2. Thinker in no wais will anyone who preaches Jesus as a GOD HIMSELF will inter into the kingdom of GOD because they are practicing IDOLATRY. GOD himself said “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME'…WHAT PART OF GOD'S WORDS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND OR DO YOU THINK YOU CAN SPURN HIS WORDS AND TWIST THEM AND GET AWAY WITH IT. You will be greatly surprised when Jesus returns and you run up and worship and profess him as all might GOD and hear depart from me you worker of INIQUITY. And see your TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE (ABOLISHED) AT HIS COMING. as it says in 2th2. IMO
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 27 2010,03:28) TT, The premises can be what you like them to be, if you close of all avenues to the listener, like a magic conjuring trick:
Trinitarian to non-triniatarian:
Premise 1: You say that Jesus wasn't God because he said 'Noone is GOOD except God'”
Premise 2: If jesus isn't GOOD then he MUST be BAD – he is either “Good” OR “BAD”
Conclusion: Jesus is God because he WASN'T “BAD”
JA,This is the sloppiest sylllogism I have ever seen. It is altogether unintelligible.
Jesus was not saying that He Himself was not good. He said of Himself, “I am the good shepherd.” The man to whom Jesus was speaking thought that Jesus was a mere man. So Jesus said, Why do you call me good. There is no one good but God.”
In other words, Jesus was claiming to be God by implication.
Try on this syllogism on for size:
Major premise: God alone is the Good Shepherd.
Minor premise: Jesus claimed to be the Good Shepherd.
Conclusion: Jesus claimed to be God.If both premises are true then the conclusion necessarily follows.
Is the major premise true? Yes it is because ONLY God is the Good Shepherd.
Is the minor premise true? Yes Jesus claimed to be the Good Shepherd.
The conclusion that Jesus claimed to be God NECESSARILY FOLLOWS.
I suggest you look online on how to construct a valid syllogism.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 27 2010,13:10) Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 27 2010,03:28) TT, The premises can be what you like them to be, if you close of all avenues to the listener, like a magic conjuring trick:
Trinitarian to non-triniatarian:
Premise 1: You say that Jesus wasn't God because he said 'Noone is GOOD except God'”
Premise 2: If jesus isn't GOOD then he MUST be BAD – he is either “Good” OR “BAD”
Conclusion: Jesus is God because he WASN'T “BAD”
JA,This is the sloppiest sylllogism I have ever seen. It is altogether unintelligible.
Jesus was not saying that He Himself was not good. He said of Himself, “I am the good shepherd.” The man to whom Jesus was speaking thought that Jesus was a mere man. So Jesus said, Why do you call me good. There is no one good but God.”
In other words, Jesus was claiming to be God by implication.
Try on this syllogism on for size:
Major premise: God alone is the Good Shepherd.
Minor premise: Jesus claimed to be the Good Shepherd.
Conclusion: Jesus claimed to be God.If both premises are true then the conclusion necessarily follows.
Is the major premise true? Yes it is because ONLY God is the Good Shepherd.
Is the minor premise true? Yes Jesus claimed to be the Good Shepherd.
The conclusion that Jesus claimed to be God NECESSARILY FOLLOWS.
I suggest you look online on how to construct a valid syllogism.
thinker
JackVery good!
WJ
Hi TT,
Are you collecting your inferences in the hope that many will make ONE truth?
Let scripture speak without interference.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 27 2010,13:33) Hi TT,
Are you collecting your inferences in the hope that many will make ONE truth?
Let scripture speak without interference.
NHYou should take your own advice!
WJ
Hi WJ,
Trinity has no basis in truth.
It is of inference and human origins.
What reward awaits those who preach it?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2010,05:33) Hi TT,
Are you collecting your inferences in the hope that many will make ONE truth?
Let scripture speak without interference.
Nick,Is God alone the Good Shepherd? Did Christ claim to be the Good Shepherd? Did Jesus Christ claim that no one is good but God?
thinker
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